A hiatus from the Politics Forum

[Jazzmoose]

I think the members only bit is a great idea, Jim...no point in having a new fan of the band show up here and think all your other fans are assholes!

[Jim Alfredson]

Out with the old, in with the new.... I just changed my screen name. I originally continued using "b3-er" because that was my name back on the ol' BNBB and nobody really knew my real name.

I think y'all know who I am by now!

[Chuck Nessa]

Who ARE you?

[Dan Gould]

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but exactly what has really changed?

Seems to me, the big effect here is that people who have asked to have the Politics forum disabled (like me) will no longer be able to log out and take a look at the forum. For me, I would do this a couple of times a week, and it worked well as a reinforcement that my decision to leave that forum behind was a good one. You know, see some ridiculous posting, but know that I can't post a response, not wasting time thinking what I'd like to say-the stupidities inundating that forum quickly became like water off a duck's back.

So, aside from completely disabling the forum for all members who didn't want to see it in the first place, what have you done? Now lurkers won't see it? Big deal, people! They were lurkers to begin with. If they ever register as members, they'll see the political forum and see this board in all its, ahem, glory.

If the Politics forum was that bad, I think Jim should disable it for everyone, add a pinned announcement to the Miscellenous Forum that Politics is not to be discussed here, and see what happens. The idea that Politics will inevitably infest other forums is completely bogus, if a no-politics policy is strictly enforced. Or is someone so addicted to political vitriol that they'd turn a discussion pie vs cake into a Bush-thrashing fest?

Personally, I'd think it would be a very interesting experiment to disable politics and see what happens. There are certainly many people here on both sides of the issue. Would it really kill people to have to go find a, perish the thought, a BB devoted to politics to satisfy that need?

[Rooster_Ties]

I wouldn't want to discuss politics, on a board that only discusses politics.

[Aggie87]

So, aside from completely disabling the forum for all members who didn't want to see it in the first place, what have you done? Now lurkers won't see it? Big deal, people! They were lurkers to begin with. If they ever register as members, they'll see the political forum and see this board in all its, ahem, glory.

Dan -the difference as I see it is that you wouldn't have people joining this board for the express purpose of talking politics. They'd be joining the board for the sake of joining a jazz based community, and then be able to discuss politics. This way it weeds out the "Naked City"'s of the world, who otherwise would have nothing to contribute.

[catesta]

I wouldn't want to discuss politics, on a board that only discusses politics.

Same here.

That scene is not for me.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I've recently started getting back into my old rock and roll collection and decided to become more active at Steve Hoffman's forums. That forum has a hyper-strict "no politics or religion" policy. It's awesome! I now interact with a bunch of people about music without having my mind play tricks on me.

... Kevin, don't listen to this guy... you know he's politcal fruitcake, right?

I would love to see the political forum gone.

Later,

Kevin

PS. Hoffman's FAQ under "Unacceptable Post Content"

Please do not post any content of the following nature:

1. Politics

2. Race

3. Religion

4. Abortion

5. The Morality of Homosexuality / Gay Marriage

6. Gun Control

7. Unauthorized advertisements and/or solicitations outside of the Classifieds Forum without the express consent of SH Forums are strictly prohibited. Marketing initiatives whether direct, indirect or veiled are also strictly prohibited.

Example: posting in a forum as a sales rep for ACME LP Cleaner, saying "You guys should check this out, I've tested them all and ACME is the best!" without revealing that you are, in fact, an ACME reseller.

8. Links (or requests for links) to sites that sell (or trade or contain) bootlegs.

9. Trades/requests for CD-R’s of copyrighted material.

10. Debates about who's right: the objectivist or the subjectivist. This includes debate over whether "your ears are better than an ABX/DBT test, and vice versa.

11. Nudity / pornography / blatantly obscene material

12. Links to "Warez" (pirated software) or "Warez" sites

13. Spelling / grammar corrections. If you feel you must correct another member, contact the person via email or though a Private Message. Note: an exception to this rule would be pointing out to someone that they have misspelled an artist's name (for example, Stevie Ray Vaughn instead of the correct Stevie Ray Vaughan); a name correction can be posted on the forum. Still - keep it polite!

14. AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, PLEASE DO NOT POST MESSAGES USING ALL UPPER CASE LETTERS! THANK YOU! :-)

[Rooster_Ties]

So, aside from completely disabling the forum for all members who didn't want to see it in the first place, what have you done?  Now lurkers won't see it?  Big deal, people!  They were lurkers to begin with.

I disagree, Dan. I do think this really is a big deal. This board is an extension of the band's web-site. Thus, I completely understand Jim wanting to limit what goes on here, because of that association.

"Lurkers" are potential "customers". They lurk a bit, and some eventually join and contribute ("Free For All" is a good example -- he lurked on the old BNBB for a couple years, and then lurked here for several months, until I baited him into joining finally ). Or even the lurkers who don't ever join -- maybe they listen to some sample tunes by the band, and buy the band's CD(s).

The point is that Jim would rather not have the Politics forum be one of the primary things associated with this board, and thus with the band. That's great!! I support him on this 100%.

All I ask is for someplace on the board where those of us who are interested in Politics and world events (which usually have some political angle), can go and discuss those things. It doesn't have to be visible to lurkers, and it needn't even be visible to members, unless and until they "opt in".

And that way, if someone causes trouble in the Politics forum, they can have their access to that area removed, without totally being banned from the board. And if they then polute the rest of the board with political discussion/arguments, then they can be banned completely. Sounds like the perfect solution to me.

Edit: And then people who don't want to see the Politics forum at all, don't ever have to see it.

Edited March 7, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[Big Al]

Understand that the difference between Jim and the rest of us is that WE can walk away from the Politics forum when it gets to be too much for us. Jim doesn’t have that luxury. Would you want to be obligated to watch over that forum on a regular basis? Or have to answer the PMs from one poster complaining about another poster? That takes much more mental toughness than I’ll ever have; don’t know if this happens to any of you, but there are times when posts in the Politics forum really hurt, to the point that it follows me after I’ve left the board for the day/moment (and it’s not even so much about posts directed at me, since I post in there so infrequently: it hurts me to see others be so viciously sarcastic to one another. I thought we were supposed to be united around here). If it affects me that much, and I have the luxury of walking away from it, I can’t even begin to imagine how it must affect Jim. And remember, he’s got enough stress in his life as it is, without a bunch of self-righteous sycophants trumpeting their daily political beliefs.

So yeah, for Jim’s peace of mind, and that reason only (which is the best and only reason for it anyway), shut down the politics forum. The only other alternative would be for someone hand-picked by Jim to moderate the politics forum; but then you’d still have the complainers whining about how this moderator wasn’t as good/fair/unbiased as Jim, so maybe that wouldn’t relieve the stress after all.

Close it down, I say.

[Dan Gould]

In other words, Tom, you consider the Politics Forum to be something like the crazy aunt who lives in the attic, or the red-haired bastard stepchild: Something to be kept hidden from all casual acquaintances and only revealed to people who "join the tribe". Clearly you're quite proud about what goes on in the Political Forum, just like everyone loves their crazy aunts and their red-haired bastard step-children.

As far as your other point about "politics" not being the focal point of the board, and by extension, Organissimo the group, that's just plain silly. Can you point to a single individual who has come to this board exclusively to post in politics? Even 1ngham, while posting in Politics at a rate to challenge Johnny for board leader, still manages to post about jazz elsewhere.

And if you're point is really about what gets posted in Politics, and how opinions get expressed, well, doesn't that say a lot about the way the politically minded are arguing their points? And doesn't that say something about why politics might not really have a place in a jazz BB?

You know, when I announced my departure from politics, it took some adjustment at first, but I quickly realized this was not something that was truly necessary to my enjoyment of the board. I think it would be a mighty interesting experiment to disable that forum for a couple of weeks or a month, and just let people deal. I wonder how many current political posters will discover that they really didn't have to post in politics. And really, what would the harm be? So you don't talk politics here for a couple of weeks. If the demand remains high, Politics goes back into action, and you guys have at it. There'll be as much politics to discuss a month from now as there is today.

Edited March 7, 2005 by Dan Gould

[Dan Gould]

For my own piece of mind, I've disabled the Politics Forum.

In lieu of a Hoffman Forum approved PM, I'd like to publicly point out that the correct phrase is "peace of mind."

[Dave James]

With regard to the political forum I pretty much shot my wad prior to the last election. I would up posting way more there than about music and, in retrospect, that was probably not a good decision. I guess it's nice to have someplace to, as The Stones once said, "get your ya ya's out, but I seriously doubt anyone ever changed anyone else's opinion even a lick as a result of any and every exchange that ever took place in that forum. I don't go there anymore. I could live without it.

Up over and out.

[MartyJazz]

I made a conscious decision sometime in the first week November of this past year (let's see now, what could have happened back then?) not to contribute further to the political forum. Don't miss it, but nevertheless the option to go there should still exist IMO. As for lurkers going there strictly to stir up feelings, I'm not sure how many I've seen. But I do know that one individual with an enviable wealth of experience in and knowledge of jazz posts 3 out of every 5 messages in that forum (Christiern). I would not like risking the possibility of losing the minority of jazz messages he posts because he might feel that he has to vent elsewhere.

[Rooster_Ties]

All I'm saying is that 95% of the people who post in the Politics forum aren't causing any problems. Why punish them, by taking away the forum completely -- because 5% of the people can't behave there. (And that 5% -- we're only talking a very small handful of people, probably 5 at most, maybe even just two or three.)

Limit access to the 95% who can behave, and I'm sure probably half of the following list of people (these are the top-50 posters), will be there -- and behaving well, like usual.

Name Group Joined Posts

JSngry  Members 6-March 03 12278     

jazzbo  Members 8-March 03 8927     

couw  Members 10-March 03 8636     

Jazzmoose  Members 6-March 03 8601     

7/4  Members 18-May 03 7018     

Rooster_Ties  Members 13-March 03 6932     

Jim Alfredson  Admin 6-March 03 6466     

ghost of miles  Members 7-March 03 6162     

catesta  Members 6-March 03 6015     

brownie  Members 7-March 03 5880     

king ubu  Members 14-March 03 5876     

connoisseur series500  Members 6-March 03 5483     

AfricaBrass  Members 7-March 03 5015     

Son-of-a-Weizen  Members 9-March 03 4930     

mikeweil  Members 6-March 03 4799     

Johnny E  Members 10-March 03 4661     

Dan Gould  Members 7-March 03 4518     

BERIGAN  Members 6-March 03 4511     

J.A.W.  Members 8-March 03 4205       

Chuck Nessa  Members 6-March 03 3701     

Christiern  Members 19-March 03 3649     

BruceH  Members 13-April 03 2985     

Brad  Members 7-March 03 2958     

Joe G  Organissimo Member 6-March 03 2864     

Chaney  Members 8-March 03 2757       

EKE BBB  Members 12-March 03 2756     

chris olivarez  Members 18-March 03 2690     

Big Al  Members 9-March 03 2482     

patricia  Members 29-May 03 2468     

John B  Members 9-April 03 2408     

RDK  Members 7-March 03 2291     

The Mule  Members 12-March 03 2253     

sidewinder  Members 7-March 03 2154     

BFrank  Members 8-March 03 2133       

Claude  Members 8-March 03 2124       

Soulstation1  Members 29-March 03 2104     

Noj  Members 7-March 03 2104     

wesbed  Members 6-March 03 2018     

Bright Moments  Members 8-June 03 1981     

Free For All  Members 22-July 03 1967     

Jim R  Members 9-March 03 1939     

Soul Stream  Members 6-March 03 1935     

Guy Berger  Members 22-June 03 1845     

maren  Members 6-March 03 1805     

Alexander  Members 9-March 03 1790     

Man with the Golden Arm  Members 26-March 03 1754       

randissimo  Organissimo Member 9-March 03 1654     

DrJ  Members 27-May 03 1634     

Bev Stapleton  Members 15-March 03 1603     

Hardbopjazz  Members 20-January 04 1576

[The Red Menace]

Comrades, we must have peace and unity!!! We must all bond together and find a common target for any pent-up frustration that we feel... a single, solitary enemy upon which we can focus and then slowly smash into oblivion... a slithering viper that we can seize and strangle like a sniveling Trotskyite saboteur... uh, beg pardon, comrades, why are you all suddenly staring at ME???

Edited March 7, 2005 by The Red Menace

[AfricaBrass]

With regard to the political forum I pretty much shot my wad prior to the last election. I would up posting way more there than about music and, in retrospect, that was probably not a good decision. I guess it's nice to have someplace to, as The Stones once said, "get your ya ya's out, but I seriously doubt anyone ever changed anyone else's opinion even a lick as a result of any and every exchange that ever took place in that forum. I don't go there anymore. I could live without it.

Up over and out.

I have had my eyes opened on a number of issues because of posts on the politics forum. So here's one who's changed their opinion because of it.

In the beginning here it was cool because we were all BNBB refuges and there was a real comradery because of it. I just wish we could get back to that place of friendship and I hope that new members might understand this was a huge component in making this board the way it was/is. In my opinion, this forum is a "politics-lite" type of board. I'm sure nastiness is normal on a politics only board, but this place is more like a backyard bbq where we're just sharing our opinions, yet at the core of it all, we're friends first.

I'm like you Dave, I was all fired up over the election. Now that it's come to pass, I'll go in there when I'm feeling the spirit, but I've tried to stay out of it overall.

I have a question. Just as their is a way turn of the political forum for those who don't want to see it; is it possible to have the reverse. Instead of it being a member's only thing, could it be accessible to only those who request to view it. I guess this would be a logistical nightmare for you Jim, and I think the member's only thing is fine.

[jazzypaul]

I wouldn't want to discuss politics, on a board that only discusses politics.

Amen.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Years back, toward the end of a closed door meeting of House democrats, one member floated a tactical suggestion and then wondered aloud what the "enemy" (Republicans) would have to say about it. Danny Rostenkowski quickly

piped-up and reminded those in the room that the Republicans were opponents, not enemies.....and that the enemy was the Senate. The problem as I see it is that there aren't enough people posting in that forum who're able to cross swords on a regular basis mindful of the fact that they're facing off against an opponent...not a sworn enemy.

The fact of the matter is, we need more dignified characters like the Red Menace in there who knows how to take a shot (or call for a quick deportation to a labor camp out near Lake Baikal) without sinking to that "you're %$#@! immoral scum" level. In fact, just to illustrate that point, perhaps this afternoon I'll start a juicy little thread about the weekend I just spent with a boatload of House, Senate & White House leadership staff and shower 'Red' with fresh details about how we'll advance various legislative balls (Social Security, judicial appointments, etc) through an increasingly sticky thicket....and allow others to witness his signature velvet fist of a response.

[EKE BBB]

Whichever decission Jim takes, the only thing I hope is that the political crap won´t be spilt through the rest of the forums. -_-

Edited March 7, 2005 by EKE BBB

[Jim Alfredson]

Dan,

Naked City came here just to talk politics. He didn't post anywhere else and ever since I gave him a stern warning and closed down the sickeninly anti-semtic thread started by his buddy che (who is on a short leash), he hasn't posted at all.

This is the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid. It's just a simple feature that will relieve me of a little stress, that's all.

[Guest Chaney]

Jim A. f/k/a b3-er: Just out of curiousity, how often do members use the button? Often? Too often? Not often enough?

[7/4]

Dan,

Naked City came here just to talk politics. He didn't post anywhere else and ever since I gave him a stern warning and closed down the sickeninly anti-semtic thread started by his buddy che (who is on a short leash), he hasn't posted at all.

This is the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid. It's just a simple feature that will relieve me of a little stress, that's all.

So who's going to walk che today? I did it yesterday.

[tjobbe]

Hi Jim,

although I'm sometime tired of following some of the "discussions", I would still opt to leave that forum alive for few personal reasons:

a) we have some good mixture in the forum (based on active members) were we can exchange opinions between europe/Asia and Americas too. I would not see the disputes (ok, overshadowed by the November accident, call presidential Elections) this too dramatic

b) I myselve got at least access to more US source of information through this board than I would get the normal way.

and c) vice versa, the "other side of th epond" can get you some insight to how the US is looked at from a different perspective

and last not least.... as this is a Jazz Forum, in worst case I would be even happy to not have that "politics forum" available...

Cheers, Tjobbe

[catesta]

Dan,

Naked City came here just to talk politics.  He didn't post anywhere else and ever since I gave him a stern warning and closed down the sickeninly anti-semtic thread started by his buddy che (who is on a short leash), he hasn't posted at all.

This is the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid.  It's just a simple feature that will relieve me of a little stress, that's all.

So who's going to walk che today? I did it yesterday.

Not me.

I only had plans to stick gum in his hair when he wasn't looking.