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Daniel A

The Revised Treasure Trove Series - Part 1

13 posts in this topic

OK, folks. I realize that some things should be left in peace.

This is truly one of the great threads from th BNBB, though. I hope noone will object to it being posted here.

Hutch

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Member # 2334

posted January 09, 2002 11:21 AM

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anybody listen to this one? i almost bought it yesterday, but held back.

sound quality decent? is the sound/material similar to grant's "alive" album? it has patton and features a version of high heel sneakers... gotta be funky then - right?

any input would be appreciated!!!

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Posts: 313 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged

JSngry

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posted January 09, 2002 11:28 AM

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It's in the vein of the earlier Green-Patton-Dixon collaborations, not "Alive". I've seen '69(?) given as the recording date, but it sounds more like '63 or so musically.

Good stuff, worth having for sure.

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Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Swinging Swede

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posted January 09, 2002 11:38 AM

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It's supposed to be from 1967. It was originally on Cobblestone.

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Posts: 1484 | From: Sweden | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged

impossible

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posted January 09, 2002 11:48 AM

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I've got a copy of this on 32Jazz. It's the funkiest Grant Green in my collection. I would recommend it. Nothing jawdropping about it, just a solid cooking bluesy groove date. Grant plays alot on this one.

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Posts: 1902 | From: Riverside, RI | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

B3-er

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posted January 09, 2002 01:20 PM

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The sound quality is not up to par with Blue Note releases from the era (late 60s) but it doesn't detract from the great music. The vastly underrated Ben Dixon is on drums.

I really like their version of High Heel Sneakers. Every organist worth his/her Leslies has done this, but no one finer than Patton and Green.

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Posts: 737 | From: Lansing, MI USA | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged

fitzgera

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Member # 269

posted January 09, 2002 04:32 PM

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When I got the 32Jazz issue, I wondered this and never got any info -

Track 6, Work Song is missing the

first two measures. Can owners of the Muse re-issue or the Cobblestone

original help me ascertain if this is a problem only with this issue?

Mike

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Posts: 1364 | From: | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged

JSngry

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Member # 1611

posted January 09, 2002 05:52 PM

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Muse has a 2 full 16 bar theme choruses (one w/Grant palying the melody alone, the next w/Patton), but the first chorus has Grant doing some wierd stuff, sounding as if he's starting in bar 3. It's really deceptive, and throws you for a loop, but it all comes out right - 2 full 16 bar choruses. I had to count them just to make absolutely sure the first time I heard it!

Haven't heard the 32Jazz version, though.

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Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

cheese

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Member # 2538

posted January 09, 2002 06:28 PM

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For those who don't know... That's Larry Young playing on the Iron City album, not John Patton. For those in doubt, listen. For those still in doubt, ask John Patton or Ben Dixon. They'll both tell you the same thing. How the label ever got this confused in the first place is mind-boggling.

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bertrand

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Member # 230

posted January 09, 2002 11:31 PM

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Cheese,

Dixon told me the same thing, however Patton didn't mention it when we discussed this record, and talked as if he were the organist on this record.

Some serious research needs to be done on this. You seem to be pretty convinced. Are there passages you could point out where one can hear trademarks of Larry's 1967 style? I couldn't find any on a first cursory investigation.

I will listen to it again carefully and see if I can find any Young and/or Patton characteristics.

Mike,

I have a tape copy of the Muse version (Muse MR 5120), and the 32jazz CD. I will do a comparison when I can dig up the tape. I remember reading about this, and my recollection is that when I listened to the tape, it was the same situation. I had just assumed that Grant chose to begin the tune in middle of the head. I think Jim describes it far better than I can.

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

Jamming With Edward

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posted January 10, 2002 03:15 PM

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I suggest listening to it before you buy it, if a store in your area can do that for you. I love Grant, but this one falls flat for me. Can anyone give me the word on First Session?"

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-Tracy

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Posts: 860 | From: Townsville | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

kenny weir

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Member # 1940

posted January 10, 2002 03:24 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by tracysimek:

Can anyone give me the word on First Session?"

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It's an OK date, but not essential IMHO - unless you're a rabid Grant fiend.

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Posts: 1177 | From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged

doubleg

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Member # 2285

posted January 11, 2002 02:23 AM

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tracysimek,

the line-up of "First Session" is terrific, but when I listened to it in a shop, I found most of the music lame and untogether with surprisingly tentative playing of Grant Green. A dissappointing release, only worth buying for completist reasons. I passed it by, although I love GG. On the other hand, even though "Iron Man" is not a masterpiece, at least it has a tight group feel. And some very good moments too.

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Posts: 61 | From: bremen, germany | Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged

JSngry

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Member # 1611

posted January 11, 2002 02:43 AM

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What/who was "Iron City" originally recorded for? Cobblestone wasn't in business in 1967 (thanks for clarifying that, Swede), and the Muse issue gives no details, listing only Joe Fields as "Executive Producer", which is meaningless - both Muse & Cobblestone were his labels (Cobblestone in conjunction w/Don Schlitten, of course), so "Executive Producer" probably just means, "he put the record out". But where did it originate?

As for the Young/Patton question, if it really was recorded in 1967, I have a hard time hearing Larry. But if it was in fact recorded earlier in the 60's, then I can possibly believe it - Young's earlier Prestige dates show a much more "traditional" approach to the organ than do his BNs.

So what's the deal? Who & When seem to be open for investigation. Where's Nick Danger when you need him?

FWIW, I like "Iron City" well enough - sounds like a typical set at a bar, not too much of anything one way or the other. I'm glad that EVERY Green record didn't sound like this, but it fills out the picture a little bit. He ain't gonna be recording anything new anytime soon, ya' know?

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Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Bill Fenohr

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posted January 11, 2002 04:40 AM

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Since the recording date is basically given as circa 67, i am wondering if there may be more then one session involved here.Could it be possible that both Larry and Big John are on the album.

To my ears for example the organ solo on Samba De Orpheus is much more angular then Pattons usual style.

Just a thought.

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Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged

bertrand

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Member # 230

posted January 11, 2002 11:00 AM

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Bill,

The same thought came to me.

If Patton plays on some tunes, and Larry on others, that would explain why Dixon thinks it's Larry, and why Patton didn't deny being on this session.

Now I really need to listen to it again and see if I hear anything...

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

Jazz Messenger

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Member # 911

posted January 11, 2002 03:22 PM

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John Patton, when asked about a session with Grant Green by audience at KC Blues and Jazz Fest, thought that particular session was with Jimmy Ponder. IMO, he doesn't remember each session that well.

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Posts: 265 | From: Indianapolis, IN | Registered: Jun 2000 | IP: Logged

bertrand

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Member # 230

posted January 12, 2002 01:57 AM

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Most musicians don't remember each session. In fact, when I spoke to Dixon, he said he thought it was Larry Young based on a recent playback of the CD, not on his recollection of the date.

I think Jim is onto something: how do we know for sure that Iron City is from 1967? The last session before 1967 is Stanley Turrentine's Rough And Tumble (7/1/66). The next is Rusty Bryant's Rusty Bryant Returns (2/17/69). It seems a bit odd that Grant would have one isolated session in the middle of his 'dry spell', a dry spell that probably resulted from 'personal problems'. And, as he said, musically, it seems to be from an earlier period. Remember that there are two tracks originally on Feelin' The Spirit (12/21/62). Also, as we saw on the thread concerning Grant's unissued Verve sessions from late 1965,

http://www.bluenote.com/bulletinboard/ubb-...pic&f=19&t=0003 87

The tracks "Iron City March", "Hi Heel Sneakers" and "Samba De Orfeu" were on these unissued Verve sessions, but also appeared on Iron City. This could place Iron City around the time of the Verve sesions. The only issued Verve, His Majesty King Funk, is from 5/26/65 and features Larry Young.

I listened to "Samba De Orfeu" today, and if this recording is from 1965 (or earlier), then I'm willing to believe that it could be Larry Young, since he didn't quite have that trademark 'eerie' sound as well-developed in 1965.

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

fitzgera

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Member # 269

posted January 12, 2002 07:39 AM

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But John Patton went in a similar direction later - I don't have a huge collection of BJP material, but listening to 1969 stuff shows me that by that time, at least, he had been influenced by Larry Young.

As Joe Fields is still around, I would recommend asking him for whatever info he has. Don Schlitten too.

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bigboy

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posted January 13, 2002 08:27 AM

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I am an organist who has a very complete knowledge of both of these artists' work. No matter what the album cover said, I've ALWAYS considered this to be the work of Larry Young, not John Patton. Both men have VERY individual styles. John Patton would not "drop" his own style one day on a recording session and decide to play like Larry Young. Patton is a complete individual who, although at times using some of the same musical components as Young, always has his OWN musical vision. Just like Don Patterson or Jimmy Smith would never play like Young. Unlike today, individuality is what these artists strove for above all else.

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bertrand

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Member # 230

posted January 13, 2002 10:31 AM

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Bigboy,

Thanks for your reply. This is the kind of thing I hoped to get - organists who have an opinion one way or the other on this matter.

If it's not too much trouble, do you think you could take time to point out some passages that are typically Young, and some that are typically *not* Patton?

I also was able to get Joe Fields' phone number, and I will try to get a hold of him.

Thanks,

Bertrand.

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

bigboy

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Member # 2546

posted January 13, 2002 12:12 PM

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Bertrand,

I just randomly listened to two tracks from Iron City, Old Man Moses and Work Song. I can tell you this, there is not ONE thing that points to the playing of John Patton. It's Larry Young's whole ball of wax...the Basslines (and his touch on the accent of the pedals is all him), the comping, the soloing...EVERYTHING. I can't point you to specific instances where it suggests Larry Young, because it ALL not only suggests Larry, but IS Larry. Of this I have NO doubts.

John Patton, who I regard in equally high esteem, has his own style. And it's not Larry Young's.

Also, don't put too much stock in what year all this happened. If you think Larry Young was playing the way he does on Contrasts for every gig he played as a sideman that year, you'd be wrong I'm sure. Even George Benson has stated nearly getting in a fight with Larry after he had gone into his current "style" on one of Benson's gigs. I'm sure if Grant Green wanted to do a boogaloo date for Muse, Larry as a sideman would play the bag while maintaining his identity. Just as the recording shows.

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Bill Fenohr

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Member # 592

posted January 13, 2002 01:26 PM

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After listening to Iron City a few times in the last couple of days, i am pretty firmly in the Larry Young camp.

Again, this is just a thought, but could these in fact be tracks from those unissued Verve dates from late 65. It just does not make sense to me (although im sure it has happened from time to time) that an artist would record three songs that he recorded two years prior. One i could see, but three....

I think the key is finding out weather Cobblestone/Muse actually held this session or bought the tapes from Grant or someone else. The fact that there is no exact recording date and no session producer, makes this date very suspect in my mind.

BTW, i am not accusing Joe Fields of doing anything underhanded. In those days alot of strange things happened.

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JSngry

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Member # 1611

posted January 13, 2002 04:49 PM

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After listening to theis album for the first time in several years, I too am convinced it's Larry. The rhythmic style of the comp & the timbre of the instrument sealed it for me.

As for the possibility of this being rejected Verve work, remember that Mark on the Verve board has said that research for the unissued Grant dates has taken place, but that the current status of the tapes is "lost". Intresting possibilities ensue from that statement.

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Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

Bill Fenohr

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Member # 592

posted January 13, 2002 05:24 PM

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The plot thickens. Cobblestone was originally a subsiderary of Buddah/Kama Sutra which in the mid sixties was distributed by MGM, who also happened to own Verve at that time.

Hum...

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Posts: 1484 | From: Lansing,Mi,Ingham | Registered: Jan 2000 | IP: Logged

bigboy

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posted January 13, 2002 05:31 PM

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However, due to the HORRIBLE sound quality, I find it difficult to believe it originated from Verve initially. The organ is distorting badly (to my ears this sounds like the leslie itself, not the recording process.) Also, the recording itself is muddy and non-distinct. Non-Vervelike.

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Posts: 113 | From: | Registered: Jan 2002 | IP: Logged

bertrand

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Member # 230

posted January 13, 2002 05:50 PM

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Bill, Jim,

It had occurred to me as well that Iron City might somehow be part of the lost Verve sessions, especially with the overlap of tunes (great minds think alike). Certainly the fact that Verve can't find them, and the link that Bill suggests add possibilities to that theory.

However, as I posted in the unissued Grant Green Verve sessions thread, Ben Dixon seemd to be saying that these unissued Verve sessions had a singing group on it (I remember thinking to myself "oh no, not another Up With Donald Byrd kinda thing"). However, he did not say if this was on both sessions, or even on all tracks in one given session.

At this point, I have to made a confession. Ben Dixon told me this all the way back in September. I immediately told him I would post this on the BN board as a topic for debate, but he asked me to hold off until he'd discussed this with Patton. Of course, he never did e-mail me back.

My next step is to see if I can get a hold of either Patton, Joe Fields or Dixon through my (limited) contacts in the jazz world. Does anyone have any updates on John Patton's health? I don't want to disturb him with this if he is still in the hospital.

I have been listening to Iron City this week-end, and I am *leaning* towards Larry. Still thinking about it...

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

JSngry

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Member # 1611

posted January 14, 2002 07:23 AM

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A vocal group most likely would have been overdubbed later. That was common practice then and now.

Dixon's reluctance to countenance open discussion of those Verve dates, and his desire to talk to Patton about the matter, although certainly innocent enough at face value, could certainly raise the suspicions of a less trusting soul than those found in this forum.

As for the distortion, that is indeed the wild card in this matter. BUT - Hammond is a notoriously difficult axe to record just so, and even RVG, the master at Hammond recording, and whose studios Verve utilized a lot in those days, had his off days with the instrument. But to be honest, "Iron City" has NO sonic indications of being a Van Gelder recording, at least not any like I've heard. What do the discographies list as the location for those unissued Verve session?

Tangental to that, though, the possibility of a rehearsal tape, or a demo of the material for whoever Verve would have had producing a Green session OR whoever might have been doing any vocal arrangements, might be a possibility to consider. I don't know if Verve routinely did such things or not.

As has been noted, the lack of specific credits on the production end of things, along with a (perhaps deliberate?) mislabeling of one of the key players (I am now nearly certain that it's Larry Young) certainly is making "Iron City" into a mystery. Is there a story there?

On a perhaps relevant note, what were the specific dates of Grant's two BN contracts? How big a gap, if any, was there where he had no label affiliation? And, Bertrand, is there a lead sheet/copyright form on file for "Iron City"? The Muse LP lists no composer or publisher.

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Posts: 10291 | From: tx, usa | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged

A Bleaden

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Member # 1341

posted January 14, 2002 01:00 PM

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Interesting and ahving flcked across to the verve buletin I found it good news - perhaps more Green from a good period.

As for Iron City - I remember I used to hear some tracks on a sampler without any info and assumed it was Larry Young because of the sound alone and then later when I found out the personel list I was a little surprised but then having heard the John Patton from recently and the later Blue Notes - -----------------------------------

I dunno!

Andy

I will go and have another listen now

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bertrand

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Member # 230

posted January 16, 2002 09:56 AM

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Jim,

"Is there a lead sheet/copyright form on file for "Iron City"? The Muse LP lists no composer or publisher."

Excellent question. There is no copyright for this tune, and as you said, the CD (and LP) are mum on the authorship of the title track.

This was the reason I talked to Dixon and Patton. I wanted to find out who wrote the tune (perhaps one of them?). Patton ventured that he thought it was Green, and I believe he even asked me to sing it to him (this was August 11, my memory is sketchy, perhaps Stefan remembers?). To be honest, I think he really didn't remember it, which is no surprise, even he were on the date. But at no time did he say: "Oh, that was Larry Young, not me". This doesn't prove anything, of course. Dixon also thought it was Green, but immediately said that he thought Larry was the organist.

The question is more than academic, of course: "Iron City" was used in a TV commercial recently (I can't remember the product), so there is some BIG money involved. Perhaps they used it *because* they thought it was Public Domain?

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

bertrand

Member

Member # 230

posted January 16, 2002 10:19 AM

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I need to amend the last post.

Copyright card searches on Grant Green, John Patton, Ben Dixon, and Larry Young yielded no tune called "Iron City", nor any tune that I could not pin to either a released or unreleased recording (some of the rejected Grant Green BN sessions feature tunes that *were* copyrighted, but never recorded elesewhere. I remember at lease one off-hand: "Kinda Slick", which is a rejected track from the Blue John sessions). Note that I was not looking for "Iron City" when I did these searches (except the Green, of course) - what a shock I would have had if Larry Young had copyrighted it!

One thing I didn't think of was to search under the song title; maybe it's a Harold Vick tune, just to name one of Green and Patton's accomplices at the time.

A search at www.loc.gov yields the following lead, which may or not be promising:

Registration Number: RE-26-912

Title: Iron City. By Lloyd Louis Brown.

Claimant: acLloyd Louis Brown (A)

Effective Registration Date: 14May79

Original Registration Date: 11Jun51;

Original Registration Number: A56098.

Original Class: A

Now:

a. I don't know what class A is, but I think it is *not* music (usually that's class E).

b. I have no idea who LLoyd Brown is (anyone can chime in here with a statement like "He's an R & B guy Green and/or Patton played with in the fifties!"). If it were LLoyd Price, we would be onto something!

Anyway, next time I'm at the Library (perhaps lunch tomorrow?), I'll do a card search on "Iron City". A lot of stuff does not appear in the computer database, since this is only for copyrights that have had some new activity (i.e., new registration or renewal) since 1977. My guess is that even if this tune were copyrighted in the sixties, it was probably not renewed. Also, any tune after 1965 or 1966 (I forget which) is automatically renewed.

Interesting mystery that I hope I can crack! Of course, I'm partially motivated by the fact that "Iron City" is such a cool tune (I love the bass-like intro).

One more crazy thought:

The Prestige discography shows an unissued track from Young's Groove Street called "Here's Bill" (why did they not put it on the CD?). What if this were the same as "Iron City"? It's far fetched but not impossible. When the 1963 Larry Young session with Booker Ervin was finally issued, it turned out that the tune "Absotively Posalutely" was the same as "Back-Up" from Into Something. Pretty far-fetched theory, I know...

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

Jim R

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Member # 116

posted January 16, 2002 10:48 AM

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Bertrand, et al,

I have a 1986 edition of the Verve labels discography, and so I thought I would toss some more info into the mix here, for whatever it may be worth (note the word "March" added to the "Iron City" title...).

There are two separate listings of unreleased Grant Green sessions (all titles labeled "unissued"):

Grant Green (g) + ?

NYC, August 5, 1965

65VK427 Iron City March

65VK428 Angel

65VK429 Fat Judy

65VK430 Samba de Orfeu

65VK431 Chim Chim Cheree

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Grant Green (g) + ?

September 1, 1965

65VK458 Things ain't what they used to be

65VK459 Moon over all

65VK460 I can't stop loving you

65VK461 High heel sneakers

65VK462 Blues train

65VK463 Sunday, Monday or always

65VK464 Fever

65VK465 Dream

65VK466 Uptown

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edit: Just noticed Bertrand's posted link (above) to this info... oh well, now it's visible here...

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Posts: 2300 | From: S.F. Bay Area | Registered: Jun 99 | IP: Logged

Mike P

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Member # 152

posted January 16, 2002 12:05 PM

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bertrand, You are getting very warm. Where did Joe Fields and Don Schlitten work before leaving to form Cobblestone? Many Prestige masters disappeared in those days and a new label was started.

Many interesting master show up on Cobblestone, Music and Xandau. I'm NOT accusing anyone of anything.

BTW, If in fact the organist is Big John Patton, you may want to take a look at a Prestige recording session from March, 1 1966. It was George Braith's session and guess who the rhythm seesion was?

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Posts: 232 | From: Moraga, CA USA | Registered: Jul 99 | IP: Logged

kevin

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Member # 131

posted January 16, 2002 08:35 PM

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This page is interesting: http://www16.brinkster.com/fitzgera/labels/muse.htm

It contains a discography of the Muse label.

It appears "Iron City" was most likely recorded in 1966 or 67.

However, it would appear that it was not issued on LP until 1978 or later, as Muse MR-5120.

If you review the link above, it's clear that the Muse label issued a hodge-podge of vault sessions beginning in the mid-70s.

Some of these sessions were most certainly recorded for another label, perhaps one that was defunct by this point.

In theory, this could be from 3 different labels:

1. Blue Note

2. Verve

3. Prestige

The recording itself may give us some clues. Clearly Iron City is of substandard fidelity and is not IMHO a Van Gelder.

Verve--not likely. They often employed Van Gelder during this period, and their sonics were usually impeccable.

Although many Prestige recordings were done by Van Gelder, by the late 60's Don Schlitten began engineering quite a few. Most likely, Iron City was a Schlitten/Prestige recording job, as a lot of his work is muddy and somewhat confused. This could be a Prestige reject that somehow found its way into the hands of Muse 10 years after the fact.

If I had to guess, I'd say this was recorded sometime in 66 for Prestige, but who knows...

Maybe someone has compiled a sessionography of unissued Prestige sessions...

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Posts: 1170 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged

Big Wheel

Member

Member # 510

posted January 16, 2002 11:16 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by kevin:

If I had to guess, I'd say this was recorded sometime in 66 for Prestige, but who knows...

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Not having a discography/sessionography in front of me, I couldn't say for certain, but I highly doubt this theory. None of the three players in this trio, nor Patton, were recording as leaders for Prestige at the time. True, Grant was "on hiatus" around this period, if we are really to believe it's around 1966, so a Prestige session wouldn't be as much of an oddity at this time as compared to 1963-5. And Grant and Dixon did appear on George Braith's "Laughing Soul" on Prestige in March 1966, albeit with Patton on board (if AMG is to be believed). But still, this theory has to account for a number of questions:

1. Why not Blue Note or Verve? Did Green and Lion have a falling out? Did His Majesty King Funk leave a bad taste in the mouths of either Green or Verve?

2. Does the Green bio say anything about Grant's hiatus? If it implies that he stayed away from recording altogether, then it would contradict theories that this record was made in late 1966 or 1967. And that would seem to disprove any Prestige theory, since Green would almost certainly be recording for Blue Note if it were significantly earlier.

3. If this isn't a demo, as Jim speculates, why would Prestige let the session sit in the vaults for 12 or 13 years? Though it wasn't the Bob Weinstock era, weren't they notorious for putting out anything and everything? Did Prestige masters disappear BEFORE the sessions were ever issued?

Maybe the session didn't come from any of these three, but was purchased by Cobblestone from an even smaller label that had gone out of business. Or maybe it was a demo. In any case, it's certainly a mystery.

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Posts: 930 | From: Cambridge, MA, USA | Registered: Nov 1999 | IP: Logged

Pete Fallico

Junior Member

Member # 167

posted January 17, 2002 07:54 AM

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Hello to all,

Ben Dixon told me years ago that it was in fact Larry Young on 'Iron City'. He was there and I believed him. After many listens, I became convinced. It seems to me that Ben's recollections of sessions are reliable having spoken to him about Baby Face Willette, early Jack McDuff and many others through the years. When I asked Big John about this, he was somewhat non-committal but seemed to agree with the notion that the record mis-identified him.

Pete

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bertrand

Member

Member # 230

posted January 17, 2002 10:22 AM

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Pete,

Thanks for your message. I wish I had known there was a controversy when I met Big John in August - I would have asked him then.

Do you know how John is doing? He had been in the hospital, then released, but I was told he was back in the hospital. Please let us know what you've heard.

Thanks.

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

Pete Fallico

Junior Member

Member # 167

posted January 17, 2002 10:27 PM

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John deals with some health issues but has a strong wife in Thelma who often keeps a short rope on him, if you catch my drift. I've drank with John when I know he's not suppose to drink... It's all about controlling that blood sugar...you deeg? John can be up or down... He's actually a very cool dude and I like being around him.

Pete

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Indestructible!

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Member # 918

posted February 06, 2002 02:22 PM

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Hi Bertrand,

I think I recall you mentioning in another thread that you had some new information, and I'd really like to hear what you found out from Big John Patton concerning his role in this album (if any).

So, I just thought I'd bring this thread up in the hopes that you call fill us in.

BTW, I hope Big John is feeling better!

Cheers,

Shane

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Posts: 134 | From: Los Angeles, CA | Registered: Jun 2000 | IP: Logged

bertrand

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Member # 230

posted February 06, 2002 02:42 PM

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Shane,

I don't have an answer from Patton yet - the tape is going out to him tomorrow, and he will listen and tell us if it's him or Larry.

There is some new information, though. I saw organist Bill Heid yesterday and asked him about this session. He says it was recorded in Pittsburgh (makes sense based on the title) and produced by some scam artist named Itzy Klein (sp?). He says they probably each got $50 bucks for the session.

And, of course, I asked him who he thought the organist was. He was categoric that it was Patton! And Bill hung out with Larry extensively...

The mystery continues...

I'll clue you guys in after I've talked to Patton again. Give me a week or two. I know, the suspense is killing me too.

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

bertrand

Member

Member # 230

posted February 19, 2002 07:32 AM

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Just a quick update, but no answer yet.

I sent a tape of 'Iron City' to John Patton a little over a week ago. I haven't heard back from him yet (although I stupidly deleted one message at home without listening to it).

I will wait a few more days and then call him...

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

B3-er

Member

Member # 407

posted February 19, 2002 11:38 AM

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This is fascinating:

I will need to listen to this record again. I heard "High Heel Sneakers" on the radio when this re-issue first came out on 32Jazz and thought "Whoa, unissued Grant and Larry that I don't have WHOO HOO!!!!" and then when the announcer said it was Patton, I was very confused.

Interesting!!!! Heid says it's Patton; Fallico says it's Young. THE PLOT THICKENS!

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Posts: 737 | From: Lansing, MI USA | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged

B3-er

Member

Member # 407

posted February 19, 2002 01:47 PM

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Ok, upon listening to this on my arrival home, within 10 seconds of the first track I knew it was Larry Young.

No doubt. No question. No other answer.

Proof? The lick in the organ solo on "High Heeled Sneakers" that starts in the low end of the organ and spirals up, using forths. That's Larry all the way.

In Samba de Orpheus, the comping is all Larry. Listen to "Plaza de Toros" from Into Somethin' and then listen to this track. Plus the little turnaround that he throws in at the end of the 'B' section of the head at the front of the tune (about 41 measures in). That's Larry all the way.

Every other track has blatant examples that I won't list here. It's Larry.

I think what confuses the listener is the sound of the organ itself. It's very gritty and distorted and nasty sounding, which is not the way Larry usually sounds. I believe this is because whoever engineered this session recorded the Leslie cabinet of the organ. I have determined through experimentation of my own Hammond that Larry achieved his very distinct sound by recording the organ direct and NOT through a Leslie.

In other words, on Larry's Blue Note releases I think Rudy must've hooked up the preamp of the Hammond directly to the mixing console (or tape machine or whatever). That's why his sound is so uncolored, pure, and bright. I've recorded my own B3 this way and when I played those patented Larry Young space chords, it sounds JUST like Larry Young. Even with the Leslie completely stopped (ie, not spinning at all, even slowly) and very well-mic'd, it does not sound like the sound on Larry's records. That's because the Leslie speaker colors the sound immensely which is great because it sounds groovy! But Larry's sound is completely different.

You'll notice on his Blue Note records that he never, ever, ever has a spinning Leslie. Even when he pulls out the drawbars and gets that big organ sound. I believe that's because he didn't record through one.

The Iron City disc is defintately recorded through a Leslie. The distortion on the organ is the result of over-driving the Leslie.

I'm still interested in what Patton has to say, although even if he says he played on it, I won't believe it! It's Larry Young!!!

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Posts: 737 | From: Lansing, MI USA | Registered: Sep 1999 | IP: Logged

kevin

Member

Member # 131

posted February 19, 2002 08:41 PM

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interesting stuff. so was this date actually recorded earlier than we thought?

maybe in 65, instead of 67?

what label recorded it?

was this ever issued in the 60s?

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Posts: 1170 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged

Duke Pearson

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Member # 1697

posted March 20, 2002 09:05 AM

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When the sad news about John Patton reached me I instantly remembered this discussion from a month back. Did your investigations lead any further, Bertrand? If you are allowed to reveal anything you might have found out it would be greatly appreciated.

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Posts: 858 | From: Stockholm, Sweden | Registered: Apr 2001 | IP: Logged

bertrand

Member

Member # 230

posted March 20, 2002 02:35 PM

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John probably received the tape of Iron City that I sent him the day before he played at Smoke.

Had I known how things would turn out, I would have tried to get it to him earlier...

I knew John was in the hospital and kept hoping he would recover. I got to know him a little in the past year, and my life was greatly enriched by this.

There are still other leads. Bill Heid knew the producer of Iron City, and knew it was recorded in Pittsburgh. Maybe we can track some information down that way.

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Posts: 1798 | From: Bethesda, MD | Registered: Mar 99 | IP: Logged

Joe

Member

Member # 118

posted March 20, 2002 07:46 PM

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For whatever its worth (probably nothing), the organist on IRON CITY sure sounds like Larry Young to me too. The comping and solo on "Samba De Orpheus" in particulary seems VERY Young-like to me.

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Posts: 3905 | From: Dallas, TX USA | Registered: Apr 99 | IP: Logged

kevin

Member

Member # 131

posted April 23, 2002 06:19 AM

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I finally picked up this date.

The organist is definitely Larry Young. No doubt about it.

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Posts: 1170 | From: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 99 | IP: Logged

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Why is it that the 'Aric applies for the A/R job' thread has 80 views, but this as of now less than 20? :rolleyes:

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That was a fun read. :) Jim told me about that discussion at the time it took place; it was fun to see it laid out.

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A question that remains to be answered:

In my second post on that thread I claim that Rudy must've recorded Larry through a line taken directly from the Hammond's preamp since Larry's sound on the Bluenote stuff is so pure.

My mentor claims that Rudy did not use a direct box, but instead mic'd a Leslie AND a Hammond tone cabinet (no spinning speakers). By controlling the mix between the two, he could achieve different shades of the organ tone. For Larry he used more of the stationary Hammond cabinet speakers... for Jimmy Smith he used more Leslie.

I wonder which one is correct? :blink:

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It's interesting to see Jim had already asked this question ... because I was meaning to ask if he was satisfied with the sound he got on Waiting for Boogaloo Sisters and I was specifically thinking of asking him to comment on the sound on Unity as the reference.

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Saint Vitus,

I am happy with the sound of my organ on our disc. Compared to Unity, it has more of a room sound to it. I don't mind that. The organ on Unity is very dry and upfront, which is a cool sound. But I think the sound of my organ fits very nice in the mix.

One thing to consider, I don't have a stock upper driver in my Leslie. It has some Peavey driver in it instead of the original Atlas. Whoever had it before me probably blew the Atlas out and you can't get them anymore so he just stuck in this Peavey. The Peavey sounds fine in a live situation because it is very bright and cuts through. But in the studio, it can be too much. More of a room signal helps deaden this out a little without relying on EQ.

One of these days I'm going to replace that damn thing! :)

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Yes, I agree that the organ blended nicely and warmly into the overall sound/atmosphere on Waiting for the Boogaloo Sisters. :rsmile: I was simply wondering how you felt about the attacking, in-your-face sounds heard often on organ trio records. Dry and upfront is a good way of puttin' the sound on Unity ... although I feel the dryness in this case had an effect of clarifying the improvisational lines for the benefit of the listeners.

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Hey B3-er, I've actually recorded at Rudy Van Gelder's Englewood Cliff's studio. It the same Hammond C3 and 21H he's always used. Rudy mics the 21H but also runs a direct line out of the LESLIE amp. He then mixes the two sources. As you know the Larry Young Blue Note and Don Patteson Pretige recordings organ sounds were almost totally taken direct. Very little of the mics were used. On the other hand, some of the early Patton stuff such as Harold Vick's "Steppin' Out" or Lou Donaldson's "Good Gracious" sound like they have more mic-ed signal than direct.

But no, no Hammond tone cabinet was ever used by Rudy.

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Thanks, Soul Stream. That's good to know. A direct out of the Leslie amp, eh? That's kind of odd. I wonder why he didn't just go straight from the Hammond pre.

So Rudy has a 21H? They have a different sound than a 122. The amp is based more on the 31H circuitry than the 122 circuitry.

Speaking of direct, you asked about my live setup. I got a new, transformerless direct box from my organ mentor. It's very hip! It features a balanced XLR output, a gain pot, phase switch, and ground lift. He wants to know if anyone else is interested, so if you are, let me know. He'll hand build you one.

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I was simply wondering how you felt about the attacking, in-your-face sounds heard often on organ trio records.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. Could you give an example?

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I was simply wondering how you felt about the attacking, in-your-face sounds heard often on organ trio records.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. Could you give an example?

I'm away from my record collection at this time, and the examples from my recollection are not that detailed ... but the first Jimmy Smith records come to mind. "The Champ" or "The Way You Look Tonight" are recorded in such a way that one comes away with the distinct impression that the organ sound is stepping over the rest. "Willow Weep for Me" on Stop And Listen and "Monk's Dream" on Unity work similarly in creating such impression, even though two organists' styles are quite apart from one another.

So basically what I've been trying to say is that the organ is usually the most prominent voice in the organ trio records (to state the obvious) and the mix usually seems to make sure of that. You feel the keys and the pedals being pounced, similar to the sound we make when we touch the keyboard as we type. Some people have said that a compression method is used to make certain sounds more pronounced ... but I'm not well versed in recording technologies.

Is this clear enough?

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Ah, yes I understand now. Usually it's the organist's record, so that's probably why it's mixed so loud and upfront. Of course, the organ can be very loud and it's easy to let that get away from you.

In our group, we want to have an overall group sound. That's why we went with a group name instead of just calling it, "The Jim Alfredson Trio" or something like that. It's not my trio, it's all three member's trio. So in the recording, I didn't want the organ to be overpowering everything else. I wanted the bass to be nice and solid, but I wanted my solos and my comping to fit in with everything else and create an overall group sound. I think we succeeded.

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B3-er,

I'm with you. I thought it was VERY odd that he was taking a direct line from the LESLIE amp! It may be a BIG part of why he gets a very, very special sound. I doubted this was really happening, so I made sure nothing was coming from the organ itself. He had a yellow cord coming from the bottom of the Leslie in addition to the mics. I'm not sure what the difference would be sound-wise as oppossed to coming from the organ preamp, but there surely must be one.

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