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David Ayers

Most over-praised musician

Who is the most over-praised? (start your own trhead if you like - this is just to get the ball rolling!   94 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is the most over-praised? (start your own trhead if you like - this is just to get the ball rolling!

    • Jemeel Moondoc
      4
    • Glenn Spearman
      0
    • Thomas Chapin
      1
    • Charles Gayle
      4
    • Humphrey Lyttleton
      1
    • Booker Ervin
      2
    • John Zorn
      21
    • Dizzy Reece
      0
    • Ivo Perlman
      1
    • The Vast Majority of Leo artists
      8

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71 posts in this topic

Dare I mention Tubby Hayes?

I'd like to see the likes of Don Rendell, Tony Coe, Elton Dean, Stan Sulzmann getting a bit more attention rather than the fixating on Hayes.

No mention of Bobby Wellins?

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Dare I mention Tubby Hayes?

I'd like to see the likes of Don Rendell, Tony Coe, Elton Dean, Stan Sulzmann getting a bit more attention rather than the fixating on Hayes.

No mention of Bobby Wellins?

Yes, Bobby Wellins, Mike Osborne, John Surman, Ronnie Scott, Evan Parker, Chris Biscoe too...to say nothing of marvelous younger players like Jason Yarde, Julian Arguelles, Iain Ballamy etc. And I've missed a few dozen more!

Oh, and Trevor Watts, of course!!!!

No intent at a beauty contest between them. Merely that when UK jazz gets mentioned in the States in particular Tubby Hayes tends to get the limelight. There's a lot more out there.

As I'm sure you're very aware.

Edited by Bev Stapleton

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p/s: it would be interesting to hear say, a heavy Zappa fan's take on Zorn. i love the MOI thru '72 or so but afterwards... but then there's "The Yellow Shark" (etc etc).

I know my Zappa too. I love the Yellow Shark, LOS, Jazz From Hell, Uncle Meat...I don't think I'm the typical Zappa fan.

And I should add: I know Frank Zappa's music and John Zorn is no Frank Zappa.

Edited by 7/4

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Did I mention John Coltrane?

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Pat Metheny, and from the history section: Dave Brubeck and Chet Baker.

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Lee Konitz and Hank Mobley. Both bore me to tears.

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Louis Armstrong. I mean, jeez...he hasn't had a decent record in years!

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Louis Armstrong. I mean, jeez...he hasn't had a decent record in years!

Neither have you :P . Only kidding.

I voted for Zorn and glad to see I was in the majority. Guy does not do a damn thing for me.

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Louis Armstrong.  I mean, jeez...he hasn't had a decent record in years!

Neither have you :P .

Yeah, but if anyone ever calls me a musician, I'm automatically at the top of the list! :g

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Pat Metheny, and from the history section: Dave Brubeck and Chet Baker.

Chet Baker is most decidedly overated, particularly his singing. Brubeck is, if anything, a bit underated, at least by a lot of hardcore jazzfans.

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IF there were more discussion threads like this I'd spend a lot less time here!

Seriously, this is kind of lame. "Most over-praised" threads are WAY over-rated... I basically agree with the comment earlier about any jazz artist really having no chance of being "over-praised."

Also, it's ultimately a subjective judgement about over/under praised. To see Brubeck mentioned as both over- and under-praised proves that point.

Some linguistic precision may be in order - do we really mean "over praised," or is it "over exposed," "not very likeable," "too popular," or what? Seems people read into the question what they will.

One other interesting thing: it becomes trendy and hip in some jazz corners (just as lame as knee-jerk praising) to bash certain artists, like Jarrett. I can understand someone not caring for his music, no problem and we agree to disagree, but "over-praised?" Face facts folks, this may be one of the most amazing improvisers ever to touch the keys. That is far beyond rational argument. If you don't like what he does with his immense talent, then OK.

I think Zorn is starting to get that bum deal lately too, probably an inevitable backlash in both cases in reaction to heavy (over?) exposure with so many releases. But make no mistake, both Zorn and Jarrett are truly great musicians, regardless of what one may think personally about their music.

Edited by DrJ

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Yes, it's an ugly, pointless thread, & the list of names is ridiculous. I assume the original poster must be singling out particular posters or critics who irritate him in their advocacy for avantgarde musicians. There are players who irritate the hell out of me but it takes a thread like this to make me think I should be more charitable to just about anyone who actually tries to play jazz.

Given the amount of critical hostility or lukewarmness directed at Baker & Brubeck over the years it's hard to see them as consistently "over-praised". I assume much of the hostility here is directed (as with Diana Krall) at musicians who have a higher profile outside the core jazz fanbase. (People who "don't like jazz" are nonetheless likely to have a Baker or Brubeck album in the collection.)

That said: while Tzadik's got a large catalogue with a lot of impressive names, the quality's pretty up'n'down. After getting burned a few times with crap Tzadik releases (e.g. Zohar) I quickly learned that I shouldn't get everything that Zorn put his imprimatur on.

Zorn is not a great musician, perhaps--his limitations as a composer & as a saxophonist have become clearer with the passage of time--but he was one of the necessary figures of the 1980s & 1990s, & his earlier work stands up well. A pity that he's gotten mired in endless reworkings of the Masada stuff in the past decade.

Edited by Nate Dorward

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I agree with much of what you say, but I still think Zorn is a great musician - if you consider that to be someone who has massive chops, integrity, a unique conception and sound, and a knack for linking up with simpatico partners.

What he IS in my personal view (others may differ) is WAY over-exposed and over-documented on CD. Again others may feel differently, but this is my beef with Zorn, not that he's "over praised." I mean really, how could anyone but the most unbelievably rabid fan honestly say they can keep up with all of his releases and, more than that, truly have time to absorb and understand them? It's a truly rare musician that can stand up to that much documentation without actually having their legacy become diminished by it...everyone has a bad day, but not everyone releases it in deluxe artsy packaging.

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

Jarrett comes close to this danger for me but miraculously has not crossed the line in my view. That alone puts him into the stratosphere as an artist.

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Well Jarrett's not been so prolific in the past decade or so (though there's personal reasons for that of course). He's not a musician I keep tabs on--the only one of his discs I now have is Live at the Deer Head Inn.

Mmmmm, I'll let saxophonists comment on Zorn's chops, but I've never felt that he was more than OK in terms of "straight" jazz chops--he says as much himself in one interview (where he confesses he's not really that concerned with playing changes). There was a track on a recent BFT with Zorn playing a bebop-style tune by Steve Beresford & it was interesting to hear him fluff the changes on the bridge. The Sonny Clark Memorial Band is nice enough, & Zorn really tears a strip off a few of those tunes (I remember a particularly pungent trading fours on one tune, was it "Blue Minor"?), but it's not all that good a disc. Actually I always liked the duck call stuff.... The Classic Guide to Strategy & the really ugly Parachute stuff & Locus Solus.

I wouldn't mind if Zorn was so heavily documented if he was still as fertile & inventive as in the 1980s but my impression is that he's mostly just reworking the same old stuff, & there's a glossiness & superficiality which is discouraging: listen to the original, buzzsaw tracks on The Big Gundown, which sound fresher than ever on the Tzadik reissue, & then the slick "covers" added at the end of the disc to bring it up to date.

Well, hard to get too nasty about a guy mellowing or settling for rehashes of his old work. Happens to everyone, & the main thing is that he made a few albums that mattered, & still matter.

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why do so many people dislike john zorn? :o

i liked naked city a lot. :tup

i ordered torture garden and spillane. i hope they are good! :huh:

well i finally got to listen to torture garden. what a disappointment! :(

it WAS torture. :tdown

--and i really enjoyed naked city, so i'm bummed. :rmad:

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Ah...Zorn does so many different things. He's got his Masada group, sounds like Ornette & klesmer. The Masada spin off groups like the Masada String Qt. The Masada Grps are quite accessible.

His classical music, which from what I've heard, are pretty far out in 20th century music land.

I like some of it, but there is so much to check out, I gave up long ago.

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Man, I missed this in its original posting. I don't have a clue why or how this list of musicians (with the obvious exception of Zorn) constitutes over-praised. Nobody else on the list is given any credit, praiseworthy or not, for their contribution to the music in the mainstream press. We're the cognoscenti here, and if we talk about Booker Ervin (or anybody else in that list) too much, it's because nobody else talks about him at all!

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I find it strange that this thread was revived.

i find it strange that you find it strange!

:P

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