75 replies to this topic

[Man with the Golden Arm]

I forgot all about my duty.

My first Jackie McLean album ... and boy I cranked that and loved it to death for a good long time.

Lately though I've become a bit soft in the ears and I guess am in need of hearing out from the powers that be about Jackie's foundational bridge here. 'LFR' runs hot and cold with me dependent upon the mood and for an album to do that there must be some intrigue. Jackie's explained it to us from within, now maybe the Organissimites can have at it!

Granted this set has probably seen more of it's fair share of discussion so...

Edited by Man with the Golden Arm, 07 April 2005 - 07:08 PM.

[Guy]

Great choice!

Guy

[Chuck Nessa]

I got this as a new release (back in olden times) and perceived it as a "welcome" from the "old school" to the "new school".

Because of that reference, I might give this record more respect than it deserves but beyond that Jackie plays his ass off and the rhythm section is a bitch.

Great friggin' record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ghost of miles]

DESTINATION OUT was my first Jackie record (and one I'll be picking for AOTW when the choice cycles round to me again circa 2009 or so ); LET FREEDOM RING was my second. Both changed my life back in 1995. I'm not kidding! When it comes to jazz, Jackie is one of my patron saints... and his reading of "I'll Keep Loving You" is a heartbreaker whether you know of his friendship with Bud or not. "Omega" is a struttin' badass of a tune... damn, I'm just going to have to go and throw this one on. Sorry, Dexter, disc 2 of the Mosaic will just have to wait!

[ghost of miles]

After listening to it again, I should add that I'd forgotten how much Walter Davis Jr. and Billy Higgins contribute to my enjoyment of this record--in fact, this might be my favorite Walter Davis Jr. sideman date.

Edit: just saw Chuck's note about the rhythm section above. Oh yeah! Herbie Lewis ain't slouchin' much here either.

Edited by ghost of miles, 07 April 2005 - 08:40 PM.

[Jazz Kat]

Billy Higgins usually detracts from some of the later 60's Blue Notes. I mean he was a basher! Lee Morgan's Gigilo, it almost turns into a rock piece. And on Dex's Go, it's like a one man drum show. He was allright on Royal Flush, (don Byrd), I loved his playing on Ornette's Shape Of Jazz... And you get the idea. Flame away. But back to the main subject. Let Freedom Ring men!!!

edit- just my opinion.

Edited by Jazz Kat, 07 April 2005 - 08:44 PM.

[Chuck Nessa]

Billy Higgins usually detracts from some of the later 60's Blue Notes. I mean he was a basher! Lee Morgan's Gigilo, it almost turns into a rock piece. And on Dex's Go, it's like a one man drum show. He was allright on Royal Flush, (don Byrd), I loved his playing on Ornette's Shape Of Jazz... And you get the idea. Flame away. But back to the main subject. Let Freedom Ring men!!!

Basher?

Isn't it hard to see/hear anything with your head up there?











Flame sent.

[JSngry]

A BASHER?????

Well, ok, but I'm an UNabashed lover of Higgins from those years.

[ghost of miles]

Basher? Wasn't that one of Santa's reindeer?

[Jazz Kat]

Billy Higgins usually detracts from some of the later 60's Blue Notes. I mean he was a basher! Lee Morgan's Gigilo, it almost turns into a rock piece. And on Dex's Go, it's like a one man drum show. He was allright on Royal Flush, (don Byrd), I loved his playing on Ornette's Shape Of Jazz... And you get the idea. Flame away. But back to the main subject. Let Freedom Ring men!!!

Basher?

Isn't it hard to see/hear anything with your head up there?











Flame sent.

Allright, you dig his intense drumming. I dont! And that's why it detracted from my enjoyment.

[Jazz Kat]

Billy Higgins usually detracts from some of the later 60's Blue Notes. I mean he was a basher! Lee Morgan's Gigilo, it almost turns into a rock piece. And on Dex's Go, it's like a one man drum show. He was allright on Royal Flush, (don Byrd), I loved his playing on Ornette's Shape Of Jazz... And you get the idea. Flame away. But back to the main subject. Let Freedom Ring men!!!

Basher?

Isn't it hard to see/hear anything with your head up there?











Flame sent.

I'm a drummer. You are not. I know a little about playing loudly. Go keep writing up your tickets.

[Chuck Nessa]

Good bye.

[marcello]

#1. This is a great record


#2. If you are listening to Higgins from a cd, it may be the increase in the "treble' in his cymbal sound; a major problem with cd remasters/transfers.


#3. That said, "basher" could never be the correct adjective for Higgins!

[JSngry]

I know a little about playing loudly.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

[Jazz Kat]

In that period. He played great, (to me) in his later years.

[JSngry]

In a world filled with real b-a-s-h-e-r-s, Billy's hardest playing barely gets the b & the a.

Playing hard is not bashing. Hear me now and believe me lay-tah.

[Jazz Kat]

I used the term to describe his really loud playing on some songs that I have heard, and he's playing pretty loud.

Or I'm just DEAF, and TOTALLY WRONG, yeah I think thats it.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

awww man, I just started this thing a tad bit too early and look at it already - "A Fine Organissimo Tradition".

I'm just waiting for my Dad to yell out the window at us to stop yappin' and play ball!


Yeah I can see the Kat's point to some wee degree on the 'Gigilo' esp but biggrin.gif Higgins deserves a bit of respect and has much around here. Now I can use chopsticks like a surgeon but that's as far as it goes for me and the mini bats so I'll take a flyer on the bashin' thing.
So a few come in all revved up about this album, and frankly I'm waiting to get some good tips from the boys here (that real Organissimo trad like Sangrey and Late trading courses over Miles at the Nickel and such), and now the man in the mitten bids adieu? How sweet it must have been to get a good old chip-board cut under the nail whilst slicing open the shrink off stuff we drool upon generations later. If ya gotta start out the thread on such a nasty note maybe a PM fired off to that Amazonian cycle pygmy from Finland is in order.

But on second thought ...

"Let Freedom Ring!"

[John Tapscott]

A BASHER?????

Well, ok, but I'm an UNabashed lover of Higgins from those years.

Me too. I'm never heard Higgins play with anything other than taste and finesse, and yes, an intense, swinging drive. When I see a recording with Billy in the drum chair, I always have a good feeling about the music, even before I hear it. In fact, I will buy a recording based solely on the fact that Billy's the drummer. One of my all-time favorites.

Edited by John Tapscott, 07 April 2005 - 09:31 PM.

[JSngry]

Basher? Wasn't that one of Santa's reindeer?

Yeah, him and Bondo. the one who fixed the dents in the sleigh.

[JSngry]

I used the term to describe his really loud playing on some songs that I have heard, and he's playing pretty loud.

Or I'm just DEAF, and TOTALLY WRONG, yeah I think thats it.

I doubt that you're deaf, but yeah, you're totally wrong. And it's not often that I say that as unequivocally as I am now.

Either that, or else we have completely different definitions of what a "basher" is.

Edited by JSngry, 07 April 2005 - 09:50 PM.

[Big Al]

A BASHER?????

Well, ok, but I'm an UNabashed lover of Higgins from those years.

Me too. I'm never heard Higgins play with anything other than taste and finesse, and yes, an intense, swinging drive. When I see a recording with Billy in the drum chair, I always have a good feeling about the music, even before I hear it. In fact, I will buy a recording based solely on the fact that Billy's the drummer. One of my all-time favorites.

A-frickin'-men, brothers! And especially when he's playing with Jackie!!!

Having said that, this album's taken forever for it to grow on me. Make no mistake: I love this album; but moreso for the rhythm section than for Jackie. Those high-end squeals just rip my eardrums to shreds! I know for a lot of people, that's part of the charm of this record (and, FWIW, it works for me on "Omega!").

I wish I could remember where I read that Billy only had one drum on this whole record, either a snare or a tom, but I can't remember. Either way, he gets more out of ONE drum than a lot of other guys get with 10+ drums (did someone say "Neil Peart?" Hmmm, must've been ME! )

Kevin B gave me his McMaster years ago, that's how much he couldn't stand this album. I wasn't crazy about the McMaster, and for me the RVG really smoothes out those high-end squeals!

And then there's "Omega!" As in "oh, MEGA!!!" That is one HELLUVA beat goin' there, and Walter Davis's piano solo is definitive soul-jazz-in-an-outward-setting. Those chords, gimme more of those CHORDS!!!!

One more thing about Billy & I'll shut up: Billy always sounds happy when he plays. In fact, the picture of him in the Fickle Sonance RVG pretty much sums up how I always envision Billy when he's playing. And this album is definitely no exception!!!

Been listening while I was typing, and "Omega" is on. So, gotta run; GOTTA SWING!!!

[Jazz Kat]

I used the term to describe his really loud playing on some songs that I have heard, and he's playing pretty loud.

Or I'm just DEAF, and TOTALLY WRONG, yeah I think thats it.

I doubt that you're deaf, but yeah, you're totally wrong. And it's not often that I say that as unequivocally as I am now.

Either that, or else we have completely different definitions of what a "basher" is.

Allright, take back that basher thing. I wasn't referring to Billy Higgins as a Basher. I was saying he was playing really loud on some Blue Note albums and if you dont think so, you are totally wrong. Someone might be wrong to call him a basher, but they wouldn't be to say he was playing pretty loud on Gigilo and Go. His playing is beautiful on Ornette Coleman's album, and is just perfect on Sidewinder. In the last years of his life, he was playing beautifully. Billy Higgins isn't a basher. He's a great drummer with brilliant talents who happened to play really loud on some BN albums which made me not like them.

Edited by Jazz Kat, 07 April 2005 - 10:00 PM.

[JSngry]

Well, ok, but even at that, listen to the tone he gets out of his kit on those louder dates - it's still "soft" in comparison to a Blakey, or an Elvin, or a Max.

Billy's kit did not seem to be tuned in such a way as to even be capable of being "loud", at least not in a relative sense. Same with his cymbals - his overtones were always controlled, and never turned into white noise.

How he's recorded and mixed (Rudy mixed on the fly, remember) has as much to do with it as how he was playing. He's recorded really hot on GO!, for example. And on THE GIGOLO, yeah, he's playing harder than hell, but the actual sound of the kit isn't really "loud" - it's the recording that captures (brilliantly, imo) the power of his playing. But if you put his playing there in the same room with Blakey on a normal day, Blakey would probably drown him out, figuratively if not literally.

Records don't sound like live playing, even the best ones. You gotta learn to "translate" what you hear on a record to grasp what it most likely really sounded like in the studio. Throw in all the analog-to-digital transfer funkiness, and all bets are off.

[Jazz Kat]

I gotta turn the treble down when I listen to that album, and that is not because of Billy. He had the standard rivet setup, but for some reason it just cuts through everything else. With that along with his left hand is how he got his volume on that record. Art Blakey was louder, but completely different in style. Everything was sharp and accented. He would play something that went through the roof, volume wise, then just end it like that, and go back to what he was doing before.

[Big Al]

Is his snare even ON on this recording? Sure doesn't sound like it to these ears!

Hey, there's a part in "Melody for Melonae" right around the 7:00 mark where Walter lays out and Jackie goes it alone with Herbie & Billy for about 45 seconds. Pure bliss!

[Jazz Kat]

On Go? Umm yeah man!

[Big Al]

One more, regarding the high-end squeals: why, oh WHY, did McLean kill "I'll Keep Loving You" with one of those squeals? I guess the answer lies in the passion behind the playing, particularly in light of what JSngry said about the friendship between Bud & Jackie (which I heretofore had not known). But it's still grating to these ears!

[Big Al]

On Go? Umm yeah man!

Well, yeah; but I meant on LFR.

[JSngry]

I gotta turn the treble down when I listen to that album, and that is not because of Billy. He had the standard rivet setup, but for some reason it just cuts through everything else.

That's the whole recording/mixing/digital remastering conundrum coming into play, which goes to what I'm saying about learning to "translate" a record to be able to hear what was really played and how it really sounded. People who either play a lot of gigs or hear a lot of live music are at a distinct advantage in this regard, I think, because they have a better "reference point".

I remember the first time I heard Joe Henderson live. 1980, and I was 24. I was expectingthis HUGE tenorsound. But it wasn't that at all. The guy had a full sound, sure, and it projected extremely well, but one thing it was not was loud. Surprised the hell outta me, but when I went back and listened to the records, I began to discern how the recording process can create it's own auditory "illusions".

Same thing hearing Eddie Gladden with Dexter - live, there was this HUGE, glorious "SWOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH" of cymbals all damn night. I listen to the records, and it's not there, not like that. Not even close.

So yeah, records need auditory translating sometimes, especially when it's a less than stellar digital remaster of an analog original.