Hard Bop

[AllenLowe]

all seriousness aside...it's been about ten years since I read Rosenthal, but I remember returning it to the bookstore, annoyed because of his bad historical judgements. Unfortunately, since the accident, I don't remember much about the book - anyone else?

[Hardbopjazz]

Rosenthal's book is much better than the two you bought, hardbopjazz.

Bertrand.

I ended up ordering all three.

[Mark J]

I own this book, read it first when I was getting into hard bop music, about 6 or 7 years ago, found it too short, but interesting to read about Andrew Hill and Tina Brooks since they aren't covered in other books, and the recommended album list at the end was a good primer although now out of date. Re-read it later, found the factual errors annoying - a description of the death of Lee Morgan which apparently is not accurate, the book doesn't have a great flow - seems like essays strung together, many people missing or neglected etc. I like Rosenthal's notes for the McLean Mosaic box better, but overall it was worthwhile reading it.

[Nate Dorward]

All I can say is that for all its factual flaws, the actual accounts of the music & its cultural background are enjoyable & stimulating. It's quite well-written, too.

[bertrand]

That sums up my feelings in a nutshell!

I will add this comment, before someone else intervenes. Yes I was ragging on the factual errors in the Wayne Shorter bio, but the difference is there, I feel that the book did not have enough meat in it to compensate for the sloppiness. Rosenthal's book is more modest in its intentions, and succeeds (I think) in fulfilling its intentions, warts and all.

Mercer's book is a lot more ambitious: it's the first book-length biographical essay on Wayne Shorter (in my opinion one of the most important artists the U.S. has ever had), yet it falls way short of creating a cohesive picture of the man and his art. Of course, she picked a particularly difficult subject (I'm still amazed Wayne consented to this thing at all), and of course I learned a few things I did not know (especially about the extent of all the tragedies he has endured), but in the end, it was her choice to tackle this very difficult subject. Add some silly typos and factual errors and you have the recipe for a major disappointment. In the case of Rosenthal's book, the errors just don't seem to jar me as much, probably because the content is far more rewarding.

Why do I bring this up? I don't hve anything against Ms. Mercer personally, I just don't want anyone to come in and say: 'How come you don't mind the mistakes in Hard Bop but you mind the ones in Footprints'.

I hope I have answered this hypothetical question to everyone's satisfaction!

Bertrand.

Edited May 4, 2005 by bertrand

[AllenLowe]

wait - I haven't read your whole post yet, but before I do, let me ask: how come you don't mind the mistakes in Hard Bop but you mind the ones in Footprints?

Edited May 4, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Nate Dorward]

Incidentally it would be a big boon to the jazz community if some knowledgeable nitpicker actually put together errata for notable books on jazz & posted them on the web.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

So are the authors and/or publishers going to offer a stipend for doing their research, fact-checking, editing, and proofreading for them?

Mike

[Brad]

I think for the oviously well informed like Chuck or Jim it may be a big yawn but for the rest of us, it's a good read. It also depends on your degree of knowledge. The more you know, the less likely you'll find it all that good.

[ghost of miles]

It was very useful to me when I was first getting into the music--particularly the 1950s/60s Blue Note records. Enough so that I still recommend it to neophytes who are interested in that period. Hoping that somebody like Deveaux will undertake a more definitive treatment of the era (and look forward to reading Allen's book on it).

[Dr. Rat]

In all honesty, though, sometimes reading a book about jazz seems to be a lot like singing a song about e. e. cummings.

Dancing about architecture?

If I could put a stake through that quote's heart (& also Zappa's "smells funny" quote) I would.

If anyone has a spare copy of the Rosenthal they'd like to dispose of tell me as my sister's looking for it & it's o/p.

How about writing about music is like playing music about social issues?

--eric

[chris]

If I could put a stake through that quote's heart (& also Zappa's "smells funny" quote) I would.

They're oft-repeated for a reason... so far no one's come up with anything memorable in *this* thread

[Nate Dorward]

They're oft-repeated because both of them efficiently shut off intelligent discussion.

[AllenLowe]

how about: "writing about music is like putting your ideas into print about sound"

[AllenLowe]

or, "trying to understand Clementine's points is like dancing about architecture"

[AllenLowe]

or: dancing about architecture is OK as long as you don't come too close to the edge of the roof -

[chris]

They're oft-repeated because both of them efficiently shut off intelligent discussion.

They're repeated because they make a good point and as often as they might be intended to shut off conversation they are also intended to get people to calm the fuck down when wires start getting crossed over a subjective topic being discussed in a tangential medium.

Doesn't mean that it isn't wise to keep in mind the limits of language anyway, particularly when crossing mediums. Sometimes it's good (and I'm speaking of people and how they talk to themselves) to just remember to "shut up and listen to the music/look at the painting/eat the pastry"

[Nate Dorward]

or, "trying to understand Clementine's points is like dancing about architecture"

More like beating one's head against a brick wall, actually.

[Randy Twizzle]

or, "trying to understand Clementine's points is like dancing about architecture"

More like beating one's head against a brick wall, actually.

I understand Clementine's points. He has mixed feelings about Francis Davis. On one hand he despises him, on the other he wishes Davis would drop dead.

[ghost of miles]

or, "trying to understand Clementine's points is like dancing about architecture"

More like beating one's head against a brick wall, actually.

I understand Clementine's points. He has mixed feelings about Francis Davis. On one hand he despises him, on the other he wishes Davis would drop dead.

Randy, I think you've become the David Letterman of this joint... and I mean that as high praise.

[JSngry]

I second that emotion.

But I don't feel like giving you a lifetime of devotion.

Sorry, nothing personal.

[ghost of miles]

I second that emotion.

But I don't feel like giving you a lifetime of devotion.

Sorry, nothing personal.

G.d. Sagittarians... fiery and passionate, but always needing that "creative space"... How the hell do women ever put up with 'em, anyways?

[JSngry]

G.d. Sagittarians... fiery and passionate, but always needing that "creative space"... How the hell do women ever put up with 'em, anyways?

In the words of the prophets Mickey & Sylvia, "Love is strange."

This I do believe.

[ghost of miles]

This Sagittarius found an answer to his romantic prayer in a woman named Brenda. Mine's the New England version... B-)

[JSngry]

Meaning that when she gets pissed at you she threatens to burn you at the stake?

Got news for you - that's not just a New England thing!