Texas Hold 'Em

[Soulstation1]

i'm playin' my first tournie tonight. ZERO experience on my behalf

just for fun and door prizes, no $$$$ will exchange hands

everybody it seems is having free tournaments in town

i got my shades

you can call me

Jeff Moneytaker, cuz i'm takin' everyone's $$$$$

i'm goin' "all in" on the very first hand

Edited May 11, 2005 by Soulstation1

[jazzypaul]

I haven't played in too many tournaments, but I've played in A LOT of cash games.

There are a couple of resources online to help out immensely. I would check out...

Poker Pages

They have lots of articles that are amazingly helpful. Look out especially for anything written by Daniel Negraneau or Mike Caro.

Some tips I can give you to keep in the tournament as long as possible:

1) Know your good starting hands. Good starting hands do not constitute "any pair" and "an ace and any other card". Starting hands that I'll see the flop on no matter what are pretty small:

AA

AK

AQ

AJ

A-10

KK

KQ

KJ

K-10

QQ

QJ

Q-10

JJ

J-10 (preferably suited)

10-10

10-9 (only suited)

10-8 (this is my weird lucky, for some reason I always win with this hand hand)

9-9

8-8

7-7

Any pairs below 7's, I'll only play if I have good position or if it's cheap to get into the pot.

2) If I have good position (being late in the betting order, i.e. either dealer or just to the right of the dealer), I'll be a little more lax with that list, and I'll include smaller pairs, suited cards, and especially suited connectors (two cards of the same suit in numerical succession, i.e. 5-4 of spades).

3) If you're in the big blind, play the freakin' hand! Especially if you can get in cheap. If you can limp in on 2-7, fuck it, give it a shot. If the flop comes down 7-7-2, you just flopped a boat with a usually unusable hand.

4) Don't bluff until you have the respect of the table. Once they've seen that you're playing tight, and you're winning most, if not all, of the hands that you're playing, you can make a big move on the second pair or on a straight draw, and unless someone is holding a monster of a hand, they'll probably back down. But not until you've given them reason to.

5) Money saved is money earned: the money that you don't put into the pot is the same as money won. Play conservatively and at the very least, you'll see more hands and learn more about the game. You won't win a tournament with this rule, but you'll stay in long enough to start learning what the really good players are doing and act accordingly.

6) THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE OF ALL: DO NOT SEE FOURTH STREET WITH A HAND YOU WOULDN'T RAISE WITH!!!!!!!!! This is the rule that paid my rent and my car note during the year that I was seriously considering moving to Vegas and going pro, and the rule that enabled one of my cousins to take down Phil Helmuth in a ring (cash) game. As much as people talk about poker being a psych game, you can't psych if you don't have the cards to back it up.

I hope this all helps.

Good luck!!!!!

[Soulstation1]

we went on sunday and i got to utter those magical words

"i'm all in" with a pair of Kings

i won the losers' table

ss1

[Harold_Z]

Anybody know........ ?

How do those 4 "community" cards effect the probabilities vs traditional poker?

That and the all or nothing aspect of this makes me wonder if it's just a show biz version of poker that plays well on tv...but the emphasis in my statement is on "wonder". I can't really get a handle on it.

[Soulstation1]

don't forget 3 cards are being "burned" as the game goes on

[Guy Berger]

Anybody know........ ?

How do those 4 "community" cards effect the probabilities vs traditional poker?

That and the all or nothing aspect of this makes me wonder if it's just a show biz version of poker that plays well on tv...but the emphasis in my statement is on "wonder". I can't really get a handle on it.

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking. You can play hold'em in cash games (so no "all or nothing") as well as tournaments. As far as the community cards, the probabilities are different from, say, 7 card stud because you see less cards in hold'em -- you are updating your beliefs on less information.

Guy

[Big Wheel]

Anybody know........ ?

How do those 4 "community" cards effect the probabilities vs traditional poker?

That and the all or nothing aspect of this makes me wonder if it's just a show biz version of poker that plays well on tv...but the emphasis in my statement is on "wonder". I can't really get a handle on it.

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking. You can play hold'em in cash games (so no "all or nothing") as well as tournaments. As far as the community cards, the probabilities are different from, say, 7 card stud because you see less cards in hold'em -- you are updating your beliefs on less information.

Guy

True, but it's also a lot simpler to calculate probabilities in hold'em because you only have to think about two cards in each opponents' hand. Seven-stud, though easier to understand for a beginner, is much trickier to master IMO (and more a game of chance)--not only are there three cards face down instead of two, but you have to quickly think about everybody else's face-up cards.

[Guy Berger]

Anybody know........ ?

How do those 4 "community" cards effect the probabilities vs traditional poker?

That and the all or nothing aspect of this makes me wonder if it's just a show biz version of poker that plays well on tv...but the emphasis in my statement is on "wonder". I can't really get a handle on it.

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking. You can play hold'em in cash games (so no "all or nothing") as well as tournaments. As far as the community cards, the probabilities are different from, say, 7 card stud because you see less cards in hold'em -- you are updating your beliefs on less information.

Guy

True, but it's also a lot simpler to calculate probabilities in hold'em because you only have to think about two cards in each opponents' hand. Seven-stud, though easier to understand for a beginner, is much trickier to master IMO (and more a game of chance)--not only are there three cards face down instead of two, but you have to quickly think about everybody else's face-up cards.

Agreed -- I really struggle with 7 card stud.

Guy

[jazzypaul]

I don't see how anyone can struggle with 7 card stud. It's the far easier game.

Where a lot of people get killed in 7 card is in the strength of hands. In hold 'em, two high pair is a solid hand. As long as there are no obvious flush draws or straight draws, two pair can be a decent hand.

Now, in stud, unless my two pair are aces and faces, I'll bail on them to almost any bet on the river. My base hand in stud is 3 of a kind, with a willingness to fold if someone is showing an obvious strong draw.

But that's just it. It's not a matter of knowing the nuts and wondering if someone else is holding the two magical cards. For the most part, with some severe exceptions, stud games give you a fairly good idea of what you're up against. Unless you're playing Chicago, at which point the rule is fold till you have the ace in the hole.

The other place that people get killed in 7 card is that they don't realize that it's a game of patience and folding. Even if the cards are with you on a particular night, you shouldn't be playing more than 10 hands per hour. And that's even a fairly liberal number. Fold, fold, fold.

And, btw, SS1: congrats on winning the losers table. Not bad, dude!

[Soulstation1]

last night i made it to the final table and finished 3rd

i lost on a flush on the damn river, i had a pair of aces

[Dan Gould]

I have to ask, whatever happened to simple five card draw? That's the only poker game I've fooled with and the only one I'm interested in? Does anyone even play it anymore?

I guess its not tv-friendly.

[Big Wheel]

I have to ask, whatever happened to simple five card draw?  That's the only poker game I've fooled with and the only one I'm interested in?  Does anyone even play it anymore? 

I guess its not tv-friendly.   

←

The problem with five-card draw is that there's almost no skill involved. Either you're bluffing or you aren't, but it's nearly impossible to ascertain what the probability is of this because you can never see any of the cards in a person's hand. Stud and hold-em type games introduce a lot more skill into the game.

[jazzypaul]

I have to ask, whatever happened to simple five card draw?  That's the only poker game I've fooled with and the only one I'm interested in?  Does anyone even play it anymore? 

I guess its not tv-friendly.   

←

Well, it's still played in some circles. You can still find cash games with 5 card draw every once in a while.

The problem is, now everybody's interested in tournaments. And Hold 'em truly does make for the best tournament play. The game moves quickly, most hands (especially at more experienced levels) actually end before the flop, and it's a far more exciting game both to watch and to play. Lastly, it's also far easier to learn (and I'm talking rules, not nuance) than draw or stud games.

Dan, it's kind of interesting, you fall into the same boat as my dad. My dad learned Hold 'em only to help keep me in practice, but much prefers draw and stud games.

Now, as for SS1:

last night i made it to the final table and finished 3rd

i lost on a flush on the damn river, i had a pair of aces

how many suited cards were on the board? At three, and especially four, you have to realize that your aces are all of the sudden as worthless as a pair of twos. THAT, in my mind has been the biggest problem with all of these tournaments on TV, is that people forget that aces aren't infallible. If you're holding AA, and the board is A6457, you HAVE to realize that someone's holding a 3 or an 8. And if a board is showing four hearts, and you've got the two black aces, you're better off saving your chips.

Just my advice for the day. Worth exactly what you paid for it...

[Soulstation1]

at least twice (probably more) i was concerned only with MY hand

i must be aware of every single card/suit and not just my hand

twice i folded after the river, when i had nothing and trying for a straight or flush

a big waste of chips imo

these games we play last for two hours

the last rounds on the final table the blinds were 20000/40000

with small coin buybacks every 1/2 hour - 45 minutes

i coined a term "an air jordan" for a 2-3 deal

ss1

[Dan Gould]

I have to ask, whatever happened to simple five card draw?  That's the only poker game I've fooled with and the only one I'm interested in?  Does anyone even play it anymore? 

I guess its not tv-friendly.    

←

The problem with five-card draw is that there's almost no skill involved. Either you're bluffing or you aren't, but it's nearly impossible to ascertain what the probability is of this because you can never see any of the cards in a person's hand. Stud and hold-em type games introduce a lot more skill into the game.

←

So you say, but it was good enough for Paul Newman and Robert Shaw and the whole MASH gang, too.

[1ngram]

The critical difference between 7-card stud and Hold-em is that in the latter the community cards in the middle dont just improve YOUR hand, they improve the other players cards too. If there are 10 players then it is an almost absolute certainty that any likely improvement of anybody's hand caused by the flop WILL have improved somebody's hand. So if there is a pair in the middle the chances of trips are enormous, three clubs probably means there is flush there. With that many players at the beginning of the hand the range of card combinations available means that whatever flop comes up somebody will impropve their hand. Thats why I always go all in before the flop with a high pair - because if I dont then the flop may well improve somebody's hand better than mine. So check whether the flop, even if it improved your hand, didnt improve some other hand better!

If you want to try hold-em and not spend any money there are a lot of internet sites which wont cost you a penny. I play on Truepoker but there are plenty of others.

[jazzypaul]

The critical difference between 7-card stud and Hold-em is that in the latter the community cards in the middle dont just improve YOUR hand, they improve the other players cards too.  If there are 10 players then it is an almost absolute certainty that any likely improvement of anybody's hand caused by the flop WILL have improved somebody's hand.  So if there is a pair in the middle the chances of trips are enormous, three clubs probably means there is flush there.  With that many players at the beginning of the hand the range of card combinations available means that whatever flop comes up somebody will impropve their hand.  Thats why I always go all in before the flop with a high pair - because if I dont then the flop may well improve somebody's hand better than mine.  So check whether the flop, even if it improved your hand, didnt improve some other hand better!

If you want to try hold-em and not spend any money there are a lot of internet sites which wont cost you a penny.  I play on Truepoker but there are plenty of others.

←

1ngram's dead on right here. My only issue with free play internet sites (except for Poker School, and you still end up having to pay -- kinda -- for that one...) is the way people play when they're playing for free. In most cash situations, no one would wait around with a pair of twos with an ace and a king on the board waiting to spike a 2 on the river. However, in freeroll situations, they will, and that doesn't teach you anything about the game except that people will play anything when they can play it for free. I mean, it was good for me because it really taught me to play tight, but that's not everyone's style, and if you can't make playing tight work for you, you're gonna get steamrolled over time. if you've got the money AND you're interested enough, Poker School is a brilliant idea...pay a nominal monthly fee, get to play as much as you want, and you can have your playing critiqued by some real badasses, AND if you start winning a ton, they'll start subsidizing you at tournaments. And you WILL get better using their site. I dig them a ton, but $150/year is a little pricey for someone that owns the books by everyone writing for their site.

1ngram, sometime when you're in the states, we'll need to play a few hands...

[Soulstation1]

won the loser's table on trip aces on the river

they are having a big tournie tonight with about 300 people

they say it lasts about 6 hours

ss1

[1ngram]

"1ngram, sometime when you're in the states, we'll need to play a few hands..."

Sorry, been busy these past few weeks. A couple of the regular players in our group here keep talking about taking a looong weekend to Las Vegas sometime and taking in some tourneys. But no idea when that will be. But if I do make it I will take you up on your offer.

Poker has mushroomed here in the UK in just a year. We've had a school for over 20 years playing every second saturday, just a social thing, but when Channel 4 started showed Late Night Poker the nation was transfixed. Now everybody and their grandmother are playing for real money on the net. Ladbrokes, the biggest bookie in Britain, is just coining it from the proceeds of their poker site and I keep meeting people who have taken up the game in the past year who freely confess they have lost serious money on these sites. My advice is to invest in a copy of

Doyle Brunson's Super System. It is still the best book on Hold-em.

Jazzypaul's also right about the players on free sites. Many of them are terrible players who stay on anything and, since the flop almost always improves SOMEONE'S hand, the bas**rds often outdraw you. The trick is to wipe them out as early as possible in the hand by going all in. You may get zapped a few times but there's always another tourney. Truepoker now has Sit and Go games which are tourneys with only 10 players on one table (or 20 players on 2 tables) and its is pretty easy to get down to the last 3 or 4 and then start to play seriously.

Edited June 14, 2005 by 1ngram

[Soulstation1]

should i buy a set of poker chips with or w/o numbers printed on them?

i someone on the internet said no

ss1

[1ngram]

should i buy a set of poker chips with or w/o numbers printed on them?

i someone on the internet said no

ss1

←

Without numbers IMHO. That way you can play different nights for different stakes with the same chips. But make sure you get all the chips back at the end of each session.

[jazzypaul]

Once again, I agree with 1ngram.

1ngram...we need to make a deal...let's never talk about anything but poker and jazz. I think the conversations will be a lot better.

My personal choice is getting chips in the same traditional colors as the casinos.

That way, white chips are always $1, red chips are always $5, green chips are always $25, and blacks are always $100.

so, in my home games, the black chips never get used, and green chips are basically used for money that's being pulled out of play. But, I've got a couple thousand white chips and five hundred red chips ready if the money is really flowing.

I always grab at least one chip from every casino I play in, too. I have a $100 chip from Horseshoe, and that's my dealer button. The $25 chip from Bellagio is the straddle button, if people so desire.

Also, while you're at it, BUY PLASTIC CARDS!!! They're easier to work with, don't get worn, and if someone pukes on them after a bad beat, they're dishwasher safe.

[Soulstation1]

i am thinking of gettin' a set of copag cards, 2 decks for $15

would 11.5 gram chips be the lowest grade you'd purchase?

i've been playing online over on pokerstars.net

played 101 hands the other night

ss1

Edited June 21, 2005 by Soulstation1

[jazzypaul]

I'm partial to 11.5, but if you look around enough, you can get printed 8 gram chips for a little more than the price of 11.5 gram chips (you could get them all emblazoned with Aric's face or something...).

KEM is the company that everyone recommends for the plastic cards. I have an off brand (and saved a ton of money) and they're just as nice.

For online, I really like Pacific. They have sit and go tournaments every 5-10 minutes, and people actually take their bankrolls seriously in the tournaments, so you can freeroll and get some realistic play in.

I'm seriously itching to get back on the felt (I haven't played for serious money with people in a couple of years). Even my girlfriend is trying to talk me into just going and hitting some low limit games at the local casino, probably just to shut me up.

[Soulstation1]

wouldn't 11.5 g chips be considered better than 8 g chips?

i found an 11.5 500 p/s for $45, thinking about buying it soon

i think i only need about 300 p/s

they have an 11.5 300 p/s for $25

http://www.discountpokershop.com/index.php?ref=14

i've been biten by the poker bug

i suck, but it's fun

Edited June 21, 2005 by Soulstation1