SACD players

[mgraham333]

I am considering enter the SACD world. The content is starting to come in and the players have decreased in price.

I'm wondering what SACD players everyone has (or would like to have).

I like the idea of the hybrid players that play CD/DVD/SACD (curious, but not adamant about DVD-A) and I like multi-disc (5) players. The upcoming Sony DVP-NC685V fits the bill with an MSRP ~$250. I have also heard good things about the Pioneer DV45-A universal player in terms of its versatility. The Denon DVD-2900 looks really nice but with an MSRP ~$999

Of course going with a single disc dedicated SACD player you're going to get a better quality unit (if you pay the $$) but I'm struggling to find the sweet-spot in overall value (cost, quality, versatility).

What are everyone's thoughts?

[Guest GregM]

I'm an advocate of going the quality route. The universal machines might seem like a good idea, but they're jack of all trades, master of none. You can probably do better if you get a dedicated CD/SACD player. DVD is heading for an overhaul when the blue laser technology becomes commercialized and we end up with HD-DVD. That development is already underway and will probably be in full bloom by 2005. Until then, my playstation 2 will be enough DVD player for me. I'm no videophile, and hopefully I never will be.

I have the SCD-1, the flagship SACD player. Here is a good roundup of the available machines (a few of which aren't available in the U.S.). There is also the Shanling tubed SACD player and a few others not represented here:

http://www.super-audiocd.com/product.html

[jazzbo]

If/when I am/will be in the market, I'd follow Greg's advice and go for a dedicated SACD player and for quality.

Personally I'm in no hurry to go to SACD, and am waiting to be able to afford a really great player, hopefully one with a tubed preamp output. I have 'hot rod' inputs on my amplifier (and I'm NOT changing amplifiers, I love my Decware Select!) that allow me to run an input right into the wire leads of my input driver socket, and this makes for a level of transparency that the normal inputs can't match. However there is no real gain control this way, and I don't want to add a preamp and another interconnect into the signal path, so I want to have a source with a preamped out. I have a Dynaco CD-2 that works very well in this role, and I can use the same brand and type of tube for the input tube of the amp and the output tube of the source (Siemens 6922). I'd probably consider a similar SACD player HARD.

It's in the future for me, but I'm in no rush. I've worked hard on my system and room, and am very happy with it now, and enjoy just listening to music without obsessing too much about sound lately. And I still haven't seen too many SACD only releases I really really have to have, so I'm just chillin' til I have the kind of choices in players that I want.

[mgraham333]

My concern is with advancements in SACD.

When SACD first launched it was stereo only, now it supports multi-channel. Were there players that were stereo only that became obsolete when multi-channel was adopted?

Right now, SACD only supports analog outputs. In the unlikely event that the record industry allows for digital output, what happens then? Any move to digital would most likely incorporate some sort of DRM (digital rights management) possibly changing the software format? Are the current players future-proof in that respect (dormant digital outs and upgradable firmware)?

I'm just becomming more risk averse as I grow older. I'm no longer the first-in-line early adopter with more dollars than sense.

Anyone out there with experience with entry to mid-level players? And anyone who's upgraded from there to the high-end? What were your experiences along the way. Compare CD to SACD and low-end SACD to high-end. Are the differences subtle or pronounced?

Just as a point of reference it'd be nice to know your system basics. This is not intended to become a bragging contest - but rather to put the SACD player review in the proper perspective. (I've got a Denon AVR-3300 with Klipsch Synergies all the way around)

[jazzbo]

It seems unlikely to me that SACD will ever support digital outs. . . just my gut feeling about the intent of the system re: copying, etc. I would definitely think it worthwhile to find a player that had a CD digital out, and a DVD digital out if you go that route.

I just don't have the time to follow the industry any longer, but it would seem to me that if SACD is heavily adopted (and I think it likely will be/is beginning to be) then you're future proof for some time with CD and SACD playback as good as it can be.

I'm a big believer in a quality source, and in the importance of a sturdy power supply and quality components in a source component; I would rank that high in what I would look for in a machine. I would at least look at a midline player, not a universal lightweight machine like the new Pioneer universal player that sells for about 175 dollars that I see people beginning to talk about elsewhere. Still, I'd be interested to hear the impressions of users of inexpensive SACD machines, ESPECIALLY re: cd playback and cdr playability.

Just to bore you further, here are my amp and speakers:

Select amp

Radial RL-2 speakers

Edited June 25, 2003 by jazzbo

[Claude]

I have a Sony SCD-XB770QS, a midrange player ($700 list price, but retailing for $400) which is only avaialble in Europe (maybe Asia too). I bought it based on reviews, as no hifi shop in Luxembourg has one available for auditioning.

http://www.avguide.ch/test/index.cfm?show=detail&ID=66

Until then I had a Sony CDP-X777ES CD player, a $2000 model made in 1991 (got it for $500 in 1995), that I am very attached to because of it's good sound and fantastic build quality.

I was dissappointed by the Sony SACD player. It had trouble reading some CDs (this has dissapeared after a few weeks) and the CD sound is inferior to the old Sony. It lacks dynamics, detail and low bass, the sound is very laid back. In direct comparision of the two players, there is something missing with the new Sony. I did not expect it to blow away the old Sony, but based on the reviews and technological progress (10 years difference) I expected it to be better.

Midrange SACD player are said to have average redbook playback but excellent SACD sound. Until now I still have to be convinced by the advantages of SACD. I received amazingly good speakers this week (Dynaudio Contour S3.4, $4000) and will most likely upgrade my amp (Electrocompaniet ECI-3), so SACD may finally show it's superiority. Based on my experience, I am very sceptical on the necessity of hi-rez digital sources in mid-fi systems.

For some time I am searching for a new CD/SACD player (the cheap Sony was more a test buy to check SACD capabilities), but very few SACD players are available in my preferred $1000-2000 price range. The excellent Sony SCD-XA777ES, recently discontinued, is only starting to go below $2000. There are very good CD-only players in this price region, but I hesitate to buy one because I will miss the SACD capabilities when/if this format takes off. This is in fact not very rational, since I have 2000 CDs and only 20 SACDs, and I'm still buying 10 times more CDs than SACDs. Hey, I even buy more LPs than SACDs

Edited June 25, 2003 by Claude

[Guest GregM]

Matt said:

>> When SACD first launched it was stereo only, now it supports multi-channel. Were there players that were stereo only that became obsolete when multi-channel was adopted? <<

Of course not. The multichannel content is separate from the stereo content, which is totally separate from the CD content (if any).

>> Right now, SACD only supports analog outputs. In the unlikely event that the record industry allows for digital output, what happens then? <<

The new Sony showed at HES uses the digital output standard (or what will become standard) for SACD.

>> Any move to digital would most likely incorporate some sort of DRM (digital rights management) possibly changing the software format? Are the current players future-proof in that respect (dormant digital outs and upgradable firmware)? <<

If you're interested in two-channel stereo, you have no conceivable need for digital out in your SACD player. I understand your concern, but it's not really relevant unless you are interested in not using the DAC in your SACD player.

>> I'm just becomming more risk averse as I grow older. I'm no longer the first-in-line early adopter with more dollars than sense. <<

SACD is a no brainer because of the backward compatibility with CD. Do you consider CD risky? Then why would you consider SACD risky?

>> Just as a point of reference it'd be nice to know your system basics. This is not intended to become a bragging contest - but rather to put the SACD player review in the proper perspective. (I've got a Denon AVR-3300 with Klipsch Synergies all the way around) <<

I have the SCD-1 feeding a VAC integrated amp with B&W Nautilus 802s in front. I other Nautilus gear and amplification for center and rear speakers, but that is used only for home theater and gaming.

Lon said:

>> It seems unlikely to me that SACD will ever support digital outs. . . <<

The high end transport/DAC combos from dCS and Accuphase already do support it, and a lot of people are saying the modified SACD-1000 feeding Ed Meitner's DAC is the state of the art. By early fall, Sony's new SACD player will also support digital outs for DSD. The standard has been established and was shown at HES.

Edited June 25, 2003 by GregM

[Guest Mnytime]

I used to have the Sony SCD-1 but I upgraded to the Classe Omega SACD-1 and moved the Sony to work.

[Guest GregM]

How do you like the Omega? I was thinking of getting it at one point, but my dealer wouldn't let me listen--if he ordered one I would be obligated to buy it. Is it really worth $7k more than the SCD-1?

[mgraham333]

An interesting development on the digital outputs - thanks Greg. Any news on the music industry's response?

I said earlier that I'm just becomming more risk averse as I grow older and no longer an early adopter.

Greg said: SACD is a no brainer because of the backward compatibility with CD. Do you consider CD risky? Then why would you consider SACD risky?

I do feel some comfort in the backwards compatibility. That has played a big factor in my warming up to the format. However, there is still risk depending on the route I take when purchasing a SACD player. If I go with an SACD only model in the $1000 range and SACD doesn't overtake CD - then what I've done is buy an average CD player but paid FAR more than I should have for what it does. (from what I've read, the mid-level SACDs only offer average redbook playback).

The alternative is to get a hybrid player (add in the progressive scan DVD) - more versatile, but with a sacrifice in SACD quality...which kind of defeats the purpose.

[shrugs]

I am using a Sony C555ES. I had a DVP-9000ES and liked it but it was finicky with cdr's. You had to get the right brand and burn at the right speed and even then I noticed some problems. They had a tendecy to skip, not like a stuck record but advance a second or so.

The C555Es is pretty good in all respects but I use this player a lot more:

Actually, the one I am using right now has an afromosia base which is kind of like reddish/brown in color. My black plinth is in storage.

Edited June 25, 2003 by shrugs

[DrJ]

Well, I would respectfully say that it's my firm guess that about 90% of the board members would never notice a decrement in quality between the SACD output of a universal player and a dedicated player, due to lack of that much ear discrimination, lack of a high-end enough system to make the difference apparent, etc. So while the "jack of all trades" argument may be true on one level, at a more practical level I don't think it's going to be an issue at all for most listeners.

I think a universal player is a very economical way to get into the market, with a huge jump in sound quality from standard CD that is going to be readily apparent even to the most casual listeners given the typical home audio rig. At $400 for a player like the Pioneer that does all its functions extremely well, including DVD (which is how we conceptualized it when we bought it, as a really good mid-range DVD player in terms of video that has SUPERB DVD sound, with a lot of nice extras to replace our first-generation DVD player) you can always go for a "next generation" dedicated SACD player later on if you really get hooked.

I know money is always an issue for many of us, but we're talking about spending a few $100 now to get into the game with a universal player. That will not put most people out of the running from spending a few hundred more a year or two down the road when SACD reaches its full potential if they decide to go for a high-end dedicated player.

Also, there don't appear to be a lot of DVD-A advocates on the board, but I can say that for rock, and for modern pop music in particular (stuff like Bjork), overall I am finding that so far I actually prefer the sound impact of DVD-A over SACD by quite a large margin. I would really miss not having the option to play these discs.

Edited June 26, 2003 by DrJ

[Guest GregM]

Well, I would respectfully say that it's my firm guess that about 90% of the board members would never notice a decrement in quality between the SACD output of a universal player and a dedicated player, due to lack of that much ear discrimination, lack of a high-end enough system to make the difference apparent, etc.

Until you've done the requisite listening, it's hardly worth wagering a guess. And even then you can just say what your listening told you. My listening has told me that there is a great difference between front end components, even among those in the same price range--and the differences are significant and easy to hear.

>> So while the "jack of all trades" argument may be true on one level, at a more practical level I don't think it's going to be an issue at all for most listeners. <<

We're not talking about most listeners. Most listeners don't listen to jazz, for one thing.

>> I think a universal player is a very economical way to get into the market, with a huge jump in sound quality from standard CD that is going to be readily apparent even to the most casual listeners given the typical home audio rig. At $400 for a player like the Pioneer that does all its functions extremely well, including DVD (which is how we conceptualized it when we bought it, as a really good mid-range DVD player in terms of video that has SUPERB DVD sound, with a lot of nice extras to replace our first-generation DVD player) you can always go for a "next generation" dedicated SACD player later on if you really get hooked. <<

As I said earlier, DVD is already on its to the beginning of the end. HD-DVD is coming, so what's the point of getting a DVD player with "SUPERB" sound? At least that's how I look at it.

>> Also, there don't appear to be a lot of DVD-A advocates on the board, but I can say that for rock, and for modern pop music in particular (stuff like Bjork), overall I am finding that so far I actually prefer the sound impact of DVD-A over SACD by quite a large margin. <<

That runs contrary to the observations by most who have adopted both. Have you heard the Deep Purple Machine Head SACD and compared it to the DVD-A? Supposedly the DVD-A takes it on the chin.

[Guest Mnytime]

Greg:

I think the Classe Omega is much better than the Sony. Though I only paid dealer's cost.

For lps

Edited June 26, 2003 by Mnytime

[Guest GregM]

In what ways is it much better? Can you qualify that (e.g., weightier midrange, more precision in bass, whatever)? Was there any area the SCD-1 shined better than the Omega, like maybe the treble? Did you do a serious A/B or just remove the SCD-1 and istall the Omega?

I hope you have a good collection of first pressing Blue Notes to feed your TNT. I'm afraid I can't afford most of those. Interesting sidebar: VPI learned some things about the bearing technology while designing the Scout. They have since gone back to the higher models and revamped the bearing design.

Edited June 26, 2003 by GregM

[Paul Christie]

I have a Sony DVP-S905V, which is a DVD-video player and SACD/CD player. When my old CD player died, I decided it was time to get a DVD-video player which could double as a CD player, and also get me started in SACD. This seemed the ideal solution. I have it hooked up to a TV using composite video (my TV doesn't have component video) - the picture is sensational, even on the composite video.

For music I'm not using multichannel, just steroe through my old Musical Fidelity B1 amp. CD playback is way better than my defunct Sony CD player. The bass is much better, and overall the music on CD sounds more lifelike. I don't have a lot of SACDs at this point, but I can say that the extra resolution can be heard, and it gives instruments better separation and a feeling of space around them.

This was not an expensive solution - I would thoroughly recommend it.

[shrugs]

I figured Mnytime would have a Rockport. VPI's are nice and all but they are kind of like the PC of turntables.

[Guest Mnytime]

I figured Mnytime would have a Rockport. VPI's are nice and all but they are kind of like the PC of turntables.

You figured? It doesn't take much figuring considering I sent you an email over a year ago telling you I had one.

Edited June 26, 2003 by Mnytime

[J Larsen]

Damn, Mny - you have a Rockport?? Does it live up to the hype? Is it a high-maintenance machine?

[shrugs]

I was just guessing. I don't remember that e-mail.

A Rockport was up for sale on Audiogon last year. Seller claimed he was dumping it to buy a BMW for his stripper girlfriend.

[Guest GregM]

I don't think even mny would buy a rockport. How would he be able to complain about the price of JSACDs?

[Guest Mnytime]

I was just guessing. I don't remember that e-mail.

A Rockport was up for sale on Audiogon last year. Seller claimed he was dumping it to buy a BMW for his stripper girlfriend.

It was in reply to your email telling me about your Linn LP 12 and how you finally got a Moving Coil cartridge.

[Guest Mnytime]

I don't think even mny would buy a rockport. How would he be able to complain about the price of JSACDs?

Like the majority of my system I got it for Dealer's Cost.

And when did I complain about JSACD's prices?

[Guest Mnytime]

Damn, Mny - you have a Rockport?? Does it live up to the hype? Is it a high-maintenance machine?

No I don't have a Rockport. I have a VPI.

I do know someone that has a Rockport Sirius III.

Edited June 26, 2003 by Mnytime

[Guest Mnytime]

I have been considering the the Walker Proscenium Gold or the SME 30/2. Anyone have any opinions on either?

Edited June 26, 2003 by Mnytime