Chet Baker was an underrated MF

[Bright Moments]

[catesta]

there's no questioning that baker was talented. however, i fail to see how someone who was so famous, so well-paid, could be considered "underrated." 

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Maybe "dismissed" by the critics largely would be a better classification. I think his star looks, drug battles, lifestyle and "whitebread-ain't-no-miles" all helped in squashing people's interest in his full talents. I personally always felt a little self-conscious for liking Chet. Shouldn't I be diggin' Clifford Brown instead? Until I realized Chet's melodic gift and outright speed (yes, listen to him on All The Things You Are on the live set) is in a class of it's own really.

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Dismissed might indeed be the better classification.

Baker is a not represented well enough in my collection. Something that needs to change, I know.

I can't comment too positively on his singing, but I enjoy his playing very much.

One I really, really, like...

[Big Al]

Any thoughts on the Riverside albums?

[kinuta]

Chet rules. I keep coming back to his music again and again.

[l p]

he's a virtuoso.

[jazzbo]

. . .without a plentitude of virtue. . . .

[Peter Friedman]

I am also a fan of Chet Baker. A session not mentioned that I enjoy is "Chet Baker & Crew"

with Phil Urso and Bobby Timmons. I have long dug the Prestige recordings already mentioned with George Coleman and Kirk Lightsey.

Perhaps one of the things that may have hurt Chet's reputation was that he recorded far too often. It seemed that there was a period when a new Chet Baker recording was being issued just about every other week. Not all of them were of a high quality.

Peter Friedman

[Rosco]

I like Chet a lot- always thought I was in the minority but it seems not. I can finally go public with it!

Chet was one of those musicians whose shortcomings were obvious but somehow that just throws his successess into greater relief. When Chet was off, he was way off. When he was on... he was as 'on' as anyone!

He was always going to compare unfavourably to the more assertive Miles. Miles always seemed to have a 'concept' of where the music should go. Baker, scuffling to make the next fix, only saw as far as the next gig (if that). Chet hardly helped matters by copying Miles' set list for the best part of 30 years.

But there was some great music: CB & Crew, Playboys (aka Picture of Heath), the live sessions with Russ Freeman, the Lerner & Loewe album for Riverside, the sessions with Coleman & Lightsey, Once Upon a Summertime (Galaxy), Blues For a Reason & Chet's Choice (Criss Cross) not to mention the stuff with Mulligan. How does a man who hit those heights end up making those godawful Mariachi albums?!

Well, of course the obvious answer is that monkey he carried round with him for most his adult life. Anyone interested in the grim (and believe me, it's very grim) details should read James Gavin's book Deep In a Dream. Not a lot of insight into the music but one hell of a cautionary tale. Some of the stuff would be funny if it weren't so damn tragic.

And yes, you're right. He couldn't sing for toffee. And yet I like it. Go figure.

[marcello]

Well, of course the obvious answer is that monkey he carried round with him for most his adult life. Anyone interested in the grim (and believe me, it's very grim) details should read James Gavin's book Deep In a Dream. Not a lot of insight into the music but one hell of a cautionary tale. Some of the stuff would be funny if it weren't so damn tragic.

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I've been re-reading that for the last few nights and I've been having the worst nightmares!

[sidewinder]

'Deep In A Dream' by James Gavin is sat on my shelf and this thread is just the incentive to pick it up again. Very good book. Also have the 'autobiography' which I have yet to read through.

Incredible 'ear' player - truly great natural melodic sense but not a great technician. Shared Miles' gift of making the most of the technical limitations and working round them.

Enjoy the Mosaic studio and live boxes very much but also like the Prestige material recorded for Richard Carpenter where Chet is mainly on the flugelhorn. The story behind those sessions is pretty harrowing, to say the least !

Edited June 11, 2005 by sidewinder

[Soul Stream]

Yes, I love that book as well.

However, this has been argued back and forth quite a bit, but.... The idea that Chet is SOLELY an "ear" player just cannot be correct. A "natural" musician, gifted beyond compare for his ear..o.k., I'll buy that. But the idea that Chet just blows on top of any old complicated set of changes, playing intricate scalar stuff at times...I AIN'T buying. This lore that is so easily gobbled up by people in general has got to be put to rest. NOBODY picks up and instrument and blows that stuff with little or no knowledge of what's going on harmonically.

Russ Freeman talks of Chet being an ear player, yet in the book people talk about Chet bringing in his book and it falling off the stand leaving him stranded on stage during "Have You Met Miss Jones."

So, that might be a good story, but it's misleading for musicians to hear that imho...

[mmilovan]

I'm great admirerer of Chet, and always thought he was very gifted, talented musican. Missed him in Belgrade concert so many years ago - watched concert at TV, looked to me as ruined person... just few months or so he felt from that Amsterdam hotel - room window.

His early days were something I can listen hundred of times. Example: few days ago I purchased CD (no detailed discographical data) with live Baker from 1950's doing singing, and trumpet playing, while at the backgroung you can identify Phil Urso (almost replaced him with Pres - so is his playing connected with Lester way back then). I like that type of music: sublime, not so agressive or mind-bouncing, still you have everything there: good and real jazz-singing, bunch of very interesting solos and structure.

What more can someone expect?

Edited June 11, 2005 by mmilovan

[Big Al]

This thread has inspired me to look for some prime Chet, and I don't know where to start. Seems like that Pacific Jazz Prince of Cool box might be a nice place to start, but with a whole disc devoted to vocals, I'm afraid that I'd only listen to two of the three discs.

It looks like a lot of his Pacific Jazz catalog is in print, with the following being available cheaply thru yourmusic.com:

SEXTET

ENSEMBLE

BIG BAND

PLAYS AND SINGS

Any opinions on those?

I was also thinking about getting some of his Riverside work, uneven as it is. However, Fantasy has what looks like a nice compilation of his Riverside imaginatively titled THE BEST OF CHET BAKER. Well, it has "If You Could See Me Now," one of my favorite Baker ballads.

Then there's those three live CDs with George Coleman. Those look like a good deal.

The one vocal of his that I really enjoy is "Fair Weather" from the ROUND MIDNIGHT soundtrack. That came out in the mid-80s; are there any other recordings of his that feature that kind of vocalizing?

[wolff]

It looks like a lot of his Pacific Jazz catalog is in print, with the following being available cheaply thru yourmusic.com:

SEXTET

ENSEMBLE

BIG BAND

PLAYS AND SINGS

Any opinions on those?

I was also thinking about getting some of his Riverside work,

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If the Sextet is with Pepper.

I think "Chet' on Riverside is a very, very nice album, if super mellow. I have no idea about other Riversides.

Edited June 11, 2005 by wolff

[JSngry]

Al, the Prestige dates w/Coleman are studio. Good stuff!

[ghost of miles]

This thread has inspired me to look for some prime Chet, and I don't know where to start. Seems like that Pacific Jazz Prince of Cool box might be a nice place to start, but with a whole disc devoted to vocals, I'm afraid that I'd only listen to two of the three discs.

It looks like a lot of his Pacific Jazz catalog is in print, with the following being available cheaply thru yourmusic.com:

SEXTET

ENSEMBLE

BIG BAND

PLAYS AND SINGS

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Big Al, the Night Lights Young Chet program back in January was devoted to three of the above (excluding the big-band session). There are several vocal tracks in the show, so you may want to fast-forward your cursor past them! Anyways, you can at least hear some entire music samples.

[Rosco]

Yes, I love that book as well. 

However, this has been argued back and forth quite a bit, but....  The idea that Chet is SOLELY an "ear" player just cannot be correct.  A "natural" musician, gifted beyond compare for his ear..o.k., I'll buy that.  But the idea that Chet just blows on top of any old complicated set of changes, playing intricate scalar stuff at times...I AIN'T buying.  This lore that is so easily gobbled up by people in general has got to be put to rest.  NOBODY picks up and instrument and blows that stuff with little or no knowledge of what's going on harmonically. 

Russ Freeman talks of Chet being an ear player, yet in the book people talk about Chet bringing in his book and it falling off the stand leaving him stranded on stage during "Have You Met Miss Jones."

So, that might be a good story, but it's misleading for musicians to hear that imho...

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Hasn't Gerry Mulligan scoffed at the whole 'natural musician' myth? I'm sure he said that Chet could read the dots, knew the chords but he didn't always know what the chords were called! It's nicer to believe the 'romantic' version.

And hell, I've been stranded during 'Have You Met Miss Jones' even WITH the book!

[Soul Stream]

Yes, I love that book as well. 

However, this has been argued back and forth quite a bit, but....  The idea that Chet is SOLELY an "ear" player just cannot be correct.  A "natural" musician, gifted beyond compare for his ear..o.k., I'll buy that.  But the idea that Chet just blows on top of any old complicated set of changes, playing intricate scalar stuff at times...I AIN'T buying.  This lore that is so easily gobbled up by people in general has got to be put to rest.  NOBODY picks up and instrument and blows that stuff with little or no knowledge of what's going on harmonically. 

Russ Freeman talks of Chet being an ear player, yet in the book people talk about Chet bringing in his book and it falling off the stand leaving him stranded on stage during "Have You Met Miss Jones."

So, that might be a good story, but it's misleading for musicians to hear that imho...

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Hasn't Gerry Mulligan scoffed at the whole 'natural musician' myth? I'm sure he said that Chet could read the dots, knew the chords but he didn't always know what the chords were called! It's nicer to believe the 'romantic' version.

And hell, I've been stranded during 'Have You Met Miss Jones' even WITH the book!

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Yes, I think it's time for everyone to drop the myth that Chet was an musical savant. Like Chet's bogus story of how he got hired to play with Charlie Parker, he liked to perpetuate these silly stories that made him somehow superhuman.

[Alon Marcus]

Some Chet doesn't do much for me.  But this one does:

Smokin' (Prestige)

Review by Scott Yanow

One of five albums Baker recorded with the same hard-driving quintet (tenor-saxophonist George Coleman, pianist Kirk Lightsey, bassist Herman Wright and drummer Roy Brooks) for Prestige within a short period of time, these sessions let one know he could break through his "cool" image by playing heated bop when he wanted to. It also finds him debuting on fluegelhorn and the softer tone of the horn fit his introverted sound well.

    1  Grade "A" Gravy  Bruce, Carpenter  6:27 

Composed by: Bruce, Carpenter

Performed by: Baker, Chet Quintet

      2  Serenity  Bruce, Carpenter  5:21 

Composed by: Bruce, Carpenter

Performed by: Baker, Chet Quintet

       3  Fine and Dandy  Jones, Swift  7:23 

Composed by: Jones, Swift

Performed by: Baker, Chet Quintet

      4  Have You Met Miss Jones?  Hart, Rodgers  6:38 

Composed by: Hart, Rodgers

Performed by: Baker, Chet Quintet

      5  Rearin' Back  Carpenter, Stitt  6:04 

Composed by: Carpenter, Stitt

Performed by: Baker, Chet Quintet

       6  So Easy  Dameron  6:52 

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/...Smokin'.htm

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These sessions are some of my favorite Baker and George Coleman. They were reissued on 3 cd's (I have the first 2).

Lonely Star

Stairway To The Stars

Edited June 12, 2005 by Alon Marcus

[six string]

On June 7, 2005 at 8:55 PM, Soul Stream said:

Yeah, he's killin' on "Live In Tokyo" no doubt.

 

I've been wanting the live Tokyo recordings for a while and finally found and pulled the trigger on both volumes together in a clamshell.  He and the band are amazing on this.  His singing and playing are about as good as I've heard by him.  Really worth hearing if you have any doubts to his greatness.

[fasstrack]

I have never, ever heard Chet Baker play badly---whatever shape his personal life may have been in. He was a poet, and a great swinger.

I only regret that he was 'immortalized' by a horrible image-pimping film by Bruce Weber (the music was great, though), and a disgrace of a book by James Gavin---both of which missed the point entirely. Oh, well, that's Show Biz... 

On 6/11/2005 at 7:57 PM, Rosco said:

 

 

Hasn't Gerry Mulligan scoffed at the whole 'natural musician' myth? I'm sure he said that Chet could read the dots, knew the chords but he didn't always know what the chords were called! It's nicer to believe the 'romantic' version.

 

And hell, I've been stranded during 'Have You Met Miss Jones' even WITH the book!

I believe he eventually became an adequate reader. I think, yes, that's somewhat of a myth. He had to have put in plenty of work, at least as a young player...

On 6/11/2005 at 3:37 PM, sidewinder said:

'Deep In A Dream' by James Gavin is sat on my shelf and this thread is just the incentive to pick it up again. Very good book. Also have the 'autobiography' which I have yet to read through.

 

 

Sorry, but I truly hated that book. For one thing, Gavin's musical 'insights' are laughable. For another, he seems to get off on that outlaw-junkie-craggy-faced-burnout image of Chet in the same way Bruce Weber was enchanted. Even if the truth is ugly it doesn't need to be romanticized in the way Gavin did. Simply execrable. I much prefer Jeroen De Valk's (I know I mangled his name, sorry) volume---which doesn't ignore the substance issues, etc., but doesn't make a big deal of them. He really deals with the reason we love Chet Baker: the music...

[Joe]

You can't go wrong with his early 60s sessions with Bobby Jasper, Rene Thomas and Daniel Humair.

Some of his finer late-period playing can be found on PEACE (Enja). With Buster Williams, Joe Chambers and David Friedman.

[mandrill]

2-1/2 hours of prime late period Chet on this album- with only piano & bass accompanying.

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by mandrill

[six string]

I didn't mean to imply that Chet rarely played well or didn't have many good recordings.  I can see why one would think that the way I worded it.  He has a very good band with him on these Tokyo recordings and Chet was focused because he had someone at his side the entire time.  The book that referred these albums for me was by j. de valk and titled chet baker his life and music (no caps).  His voice in particular is really strong here, not as vulnerable and fragile sounding as it usually did.  I like that voice too but this is different. 

[Gheorghe]

I must admit, that I became aware of him only after his comeback, around 1978. Sure I listened  to some  his earlier work, but his work from 78-88 was what I really liked.

Somehow the West Coast perioad never was my biggest point. I would like to state, that it´s my fault, I wouldn´t dare to make statements what kind of style is better, it´s just some appeal more to me and others less.