[Rosco]

Just been playing the CD 'Marion Brown Quartet' a/k/a "Capricorn Moon' (originally ESP 1022) and was reminded of something regarding this album that had slipped my mind. The tracks are-

1) Capricorn Moon
2) 27 Cooper Square
3) Exhibition

The personnel as listed on the booklet's reproduction of the LP sleeve is
Brown (as); Alan Shorter (t); Ronnie Boykins & Reggie Johnson (b); Rashied Ali (perc)....

... and Benny [sic] Maupin- saxophone

Maupin is listed as playing on Exhibition but appears to be absent. Shorter is heard, but not listed.

Thought I'd go to the ESP website for clarification and found this:

In November, 1965, Marion Brown made his recording debut as leader on ESP at the RLA Studio, Richard Alderson Engineer. The session went well. At one point, B was told that they had just recorded a composition by Wayne Shorter. B called Wayne and asked whether ESP could publish the composition. Wayne refused. Richard Alderson was directed to erase the recording :o , and the session went forward with compositions by Marion Brown. It was ESP policy to publish all composition by artists making their debut on the label. No incident of this nature ever occurred again on an ESP recording session.



So, what was Bennie Maupin's involvement (if any)? Did he play on the (erased!) Shorter tune or is there more from these sessions?

Any ideas?

[brownie]

Was not aware about this Shorter (Wayne) problem!

By the way, the cover photo is part of a series of slides of mine I left with Bernard Stollman before the release of this album. The photo was taken at a concert Marion Brown gave in the gardens of the American Center in Paris.
The place now houses the Cartier foundation.
Glad to see that Stollman made good use of my photos!

The American Center has quite a number of great jazz concerts at the time by artists like Sonny Murray, the Art Ensemble of Chicago, Anthony Braxton and others.
The American Center relocated in the new Bercy district on the Seine River banks but had to close for lack of funds back in 1996 :angry:

[Rosco]

Thanks for that Brownie! It's strange... I was wondering about that cover (used as the cover on the current ESP issue) as it's different to the one I have, an enigmatic blurry black & white shot (this was apparently the original cover)

Actually, the mystery has deepened since discovering this site:

http://www.fmi.uni-p...ownquartet.html

According to this, all issues of the album after 1975 replaced track 3, 'Exhibition' with 'Mephistopheles', an Alan Shorter tune (and checking just now, it is indeed the same tune recorded by Wayne on 'The All Seeing Eye') but most versions (including the one I have, the Italian Abraxas CD) continue to list 'Exhibition'...

So has 'Exhibition' never been issued on CD? Was it only on the original LP? And is Bennie Maupin on it?!

I may be more confused now than when I started... :blink: :crazy: :D

[Rosco]

That site also has a third cover shot...

Slightly less enigmatic, but kinda cool! :D

This post has been edited by Rosco: 02 July 2005 - 09:38 AM

[brownie]

Rosco, on Jul 2 2005, 09:29 AM, said:

I was wondering about that cover (used as the cover on the current ESP issue) as it's different to the one I have, an enigmatic blurry black & white shot (this was apparently the original cover)


So has 'Exhibition' never been issued on CD? Was it only on the original LP? And is Bennie Maupin on it?!

I may be more confused now than when I started...  :blink:  :crazy:  :D

I have the original vinyl of the Marion Brown ESP1022 with the cover photo by Charles Shabacon (an excellent photographer by the way who also took strong photos of Sun Ra).
That vinyl has 'Exhibition' on side B.
The label to side B reproduces the cover shot. The side A label is a regular label lising the contents of both sides!
And Bennie Maupin plays (and is wild!) on that Exhibition!

The third photo you posted was taken during a walk down the Champs-Elysees avenue! Happy times!
Will have to get this new release/reissue...

[Rosco]

Many thanks, Brownie!

So it seems 'Exhibition' was only on the original pressings of ESP1022 and hasn't been on any versions since.

'Mephistopheles' is well worth having if you pick up the current version. Hopefully the rumoured ESP reissue project will find room for both!

... and maybe, just maybe, the engineer forgot to hit the erase button on that Wayne track... :rolleyes:

:tup

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Verrrrry interesting.

Here are the entries on this session from Bruyninckx CDROM:

=============================================
-Marion Brown Quartet- : Alan Shorter (tp) Marion Brown (as) Reggie Johnson (b) Rashied Ali (d)

New York, November 1965

27 Cooper Square ESP 1022

Bennie Maupin (ts) replaces Shorter, same location and dates
Exhibition ESP 1022

Alan Shorter (tp) replaces Maupin, Ronnie Boykins (b) added, same location and dates
Capricorn moon ESP 1022

=============================================

and Lord CDROM 5.0:

Marion Brown Quartet:

Alan Shorter (tp) Marion Brown (as) Ronnie Boykins (b-1) Reggie Johnson (b) Rashied Ali (d)

New York, November, 1965

Capricorn moon (1) ESP-Disk (S)1022
27 Cooper Square - , 1033(ed)
Exhibition -

Note: On the cover of ESP-Disk (S)1022 Bennie Maupin (ts) is listed as replacing Shorter on "Exhibition", however, no tenor sax is audible on any of the titles.
"27 Cooper Square" may not be included on all copies of ESP (S)1022.
The exact recording date may be November 11, 1965.

All above titles also on ESP-Disk (Jap)BT-5008, Base (It)1022, Fontana (E)SFJL930.

=========================================

So although Lord is aware of the problem, he's got the details wrong and neither has any mention of Mephistopheles.


Perhaps Bertrand will illuminate why Wayne Shorter was called regarding a piece composed by Alan Shorter, even though Mephistopheles came out on Blue Note first.

It sure is confusing why the Shorter tune *later* got put in. I would have expected the reverse, that the album with the questionable (non-ESP) publishing would be pulled and replaced with a Brown tune.

So why oh why can't we get a FOUR-track CD on this one?

Mike

P.S. - alas, the color cover photo (with sax, not ice cream) has been flipped......

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Rosco, on Jul 2 2005, 11:34 AM, said:

... and maybe, just maybe, the engineer forgot to hit the erase button on that Wayne track... 

My interpretation of the story and the evidence is that there was NEVER any Wayne Shorter composition. The track that was in question *was* Mephistopheles, by Alan Shorter. It would have been published previously for the Blue Note release (can't check details right now), so it wouldn't have been in line with the ESP-only publishing. That's why it didn't make the album at first. Why things changed later, I have no idea. But Alderson did NOT erase it, quite obviously. And that's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Mike

[BFrank]

FWIW, the version that is posted on eMusic is:

1) Capricorn Moon
2) 27 Cooper Square
3) Exhibitions

There are no other liner notes and the cover shown is the one with brownie's photo.

[Rosco]

Michael Fitzgerald, on Jul 2 2005, 05:49 PM, said:

My interpretation of the story and the evidence is that there was NEVER any Wayne Shorter composition. The track that was in question *was* Mephistopheles, by Alan Shorter. It would have been published previously for the Blue Note release (can't check details right now), so it wouldn't have been in line with the ESP-only publishing. That's why it didn't make the album at first. Why things changed later, I have no idea. But Alderson did NOT erase it, quite obviously. And that's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Mike

Hmm... that would make a lot more sense! But Alan's tune is still there on the current CD even though the website still claims it had been erased. So... has the switch escaped even ESP's attention??!! :huh:

Feels like we're getting somewhere now! Thanks, Mike!

Bring on that 4 track CD!! ^_^

[1ngram]

Both copies I have are 1967 British Fontana issues. I remember buying it in 1967 after hearing the LP in a friends flat in an old set of coal bunkers under a doctor's surgery here and being knocked out by Capricorn Moon in particular. His later stuff never did anything for me though.

Does anyone know if there is any sheet music for Capricorn Moon anywhere. I would love to try it out on the sax.

[Rosco]

1ngram, on Jul 2 2005, 06:28 PM, said:

Both copies I have are 1967 British Fontana issues.  I remember buying it in 1967 after hearing the LP in a friends flat in an old set of coal bunkers under a doctor's surgery here and being knocked out by Capricorn Moon in particular.  His later stuff never did anything for me though.

Does anyone know if there is any sheet music for Capricorn Moon anywhere.  I would love to try it out on the sax.

Both copies?! :w

[1ngram]

First copy suffered two marriages, three kids and a divorce and the cover is now held together by sticky tape. So when I saw another copy about 10 years ago I bought it. I just cant abide getting rid of anything which explains all the stuff littering my house

[bertrand]

I think Mike is on the right track - there was probably never any Wayne Shorter composition, and the phone call to Wayne was about Alan's tune 'Mephistopheles'.

Although it does not show up at www.loc.gov, I know the piece was copyrighted. I think it was in Wayne's publishing company (Miyako Music) which might explain the whole story: they called Wayne to ask if he would be willing to switch the publishing rights from Miyako Music to ESP. Of course, he said no (why would he say yes to something like that) and so the track was left off, initially. Don't know why it showed up later.

The four Wayne compositions from All Seeing Eye were copyrighted 12/3/65; why the date is so close to the Marion Brown session may be a coincidence. I don't have the copyright date for Alan's tune handy.

Alan copyrighted only one other song - 'Iditus', also from a Marion Brown date. Don't know the publisher off-hand.

Bertrand.

This post has been edited by bertrand: 02 July 2005 - 02:12 PM

[Michael Fitzgerald]

All fine - but I would think that Alan would have control over his own tune and even if it were in Wayne's company that he wouldn't need to get permission. But maybe since Wayne was much more experienced in publishing matters it was more a call seeking advice. And I completely agree that this B.S. ESP "we only record stuff we publish" line is ridiculous - though they weren't the only ones pulling this crap.

Mike

[StormP]

Just came across this site, it might help somebody looking for info.

www.jazzdisco.org/

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Unfortunately that site, while ambitious, is seriously flawed. In the 1959-1965 Wayne Shorter section alone, here's 10 minutes worth of scrutiny:

Typos (Eaast of Brooklyn, Harold Goletta, Lester Left Down, etc.)

Lack of authority control - 'Mama "G"', 'Nellie Blye', 'April Jamming (mof Nelly Bly)', and 'Nelly Bly' - four different ways of listing the exact same tune.

Common issues missing (no mention of the Mosaic boxed set for the 1960 Birdland material, no mention of any CD issue of Hubbard's Here To Stay, no mention of the Mosaic Vee Jay boxed set, etc. etc.)

Tricky situations like Golson's Pop + Jazz not handled clearly and accurately.

Incomplete location info - studio missing for Second Genesis session

Incorrect location info - studio name is Fine Sound, not Fine Sounds.

Incorrect date info - Wayning Moments recorded November 2 and 6, 1961 not "1962"

Incorrect take info - November 9 & 10, 1959 sessions list alternative takes that do NOT exist and were NOT issued on FHCY-1004, according to details in Mosaic Vee Jay set.

Incorrect title info - tune name is Giantis, not Giants

Missing sessions - the third set of the Messengers May 13, 1961 (issued on CD) is not included

My impression is that the compilers on this site don't have access to the most up-to-date information and just copy what they do have access to without regard for accuracy.

Mike

[clifford_thornton]

In talking to Bernard, he told me that he was under the impression that "Mephistopheles" was a Wayne Shorter tune, so he asked to use a track from another session that Brown recorded. This was "Exhibition." The problem was resolved later and they used the master for the November 1965 session for subsequent material, but neglected to change the title. The masters for both sessions are safe, and ESP will be reissuing all of it later this summer, apparently with both "Mephistopheles" and "Exhibition."

Cheers,
CT

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Aha - a different session!? Well, I would be very happy if we could get details better than month/year for this stuff.

So the story about Alderson rewinding and erasing the take is bull, then?

Mike

[clifford_thornton]

Must be, because I've heard both!

[Rosco]

clifford_thornton, on Jul 3 2005, 02:37 AM, said:

In talking to Bernard, he told me that he was under the impression that "Mephistopheles" was a Wayne Shorter tune, so he asked to use a track from another session that Brown recorded. This was "Exhibition." The problem was resolved later and they used the master for the November 1965 session for subsequent material, but neglected to change the title. The masters for both sessions are safe, and ESP will be reissuing all of it later this summer, apparently with both "Mephistopheles" and "Exhibition."

Cheers,
CT

Thanks for helping clear that up CT!

Looking forward to the expanded reissue and finally hearing Maupin's contribution! :tup

[Rosco]

Incidentally, Brownie...

Did you also take the photos used for the follow-up, 'Why Not?' (ESP 1040)?

Looks like it could be the same gig...

[Rosco]

Always liked this picture of Marion in front of what I assume is a large mural...

[brownie]

Rosco, on Jul 3 2005, 04:01 PM, said:

Incidentally, Brownie...

Did you also take the photos used for the follow-up, 'Why Not?' (ESP 1040)?

Looks like it could be the same gig...

Oui...
and it was the same gig, indeed!
That image was not flipped :blink:


The other shot of Marion Brown was taken in front of a giant advertisement poster!

[JohnS]

Very interesting, my thanks to CT. Looks like I'll be replacing my original ESP album before too long.

[clifford_thornton]

I dunno, I'll be keeping mine but am eager to hear "Mephistopheles" again. I had a cassette of the tune at one point, and it's a monster - much freer than the version on Wayne's date.

[JohnS]

Can't keep them all, wish I could.

[Clunky]

Perhaps shamefully I've no Marion Brown, is this a good place to start ?

[jazzbo]

YES.

This and "Three for Shepp" on Impulse.

[clifford_thornton]

An interesting sidenote: Marion has said that this was recorded before Ascension, making it a Summer (rather than mid-November) 1965 date. Curious...

Mike?