randissimo Posted July 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) Some I really dislike: Buddy Rich - simply cannot relate to his personal vibe, and simply not my taste. OTOH I like Bellson, who has comparable chops, but much more taste. (Jim, have you heard Bellson on Duke's Big Four on Pablo? This might change your mind!) Billy Cobham - except for some very early records, like Ron Carter's on Embryo, or Miroslav Vitous' on SONY. Steve Smith. Most of them unsubtle fusion hammerers. ← Though I pretty much agree with you, I have to disagree with you about this guy.. Steve Smith is a highly evolved and accomplished drummer. I saw him him do a 2 hour clinic and was fascinated. I'm assuming you haven't seen his DVD "history Of The US Beat". Smith is very articulate, plays with great depth, feel, time, imagination, is comfortable in many genres, and has chops to spare! The guy with super chops I've never cared much for is Dave Weckl. To me, he is "Mr. Chopzilla" and typically sounds too premeditated and mechanical. I am an advocate of using snare drum rudiments on the drum kit, but not to the point where the drumnastics come before playing tastefully and musically. The drummer I started this thread with, Virgil Donati, can play 32nd note triplets at 130 beats per minute on double bass drum pedals and can play over 1000 single strokes per minute, but approaches the drums as if it were a competitive sport! Sadly, too many young drummer wannabes think that's what drumming is all about and don't realize what's involved in becoming a good drummer, and often don't want to take the time to learn how to play time tastefully and how to groove, and listen.. Edited July 19, 2005 by randissimo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted July 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Some I really dislike: Buddy Rich - simply cannot relate to his personal vibe, and simply not my taste. OTOH I like Bellson, who has comparable chops, but much more taste. (Jim, have you heard Bellson on Duke's Big Four on Pablo? This might change your mind!) Billy Cobham - except for some very early records, like Ron Carter's on Embryo, or Miroslav Vitous' on SONY. Steve Smith. Most of them unsubtle fusion hammerers. ← Though I pretty much agree with you, I have to disagree with you about this guy.. Steve Smith is a highly evolved and accomplished drummer. I saw him him do a 2 hour clinic and was fascinated. I'm assuming you haven't seen his DVD "history Of The US Beat". Smith is very articulate, plays with great depth, feel, time, imagination, is comfortable in many genres, and has chops to spare! The guy with super chops I've never cared much for is Dave Weckl. To me, he is "Mr. Chopzilla" and typically sounds too premeditated and mechanical. I am an advocate of using snare drum rudiments on the drum kit, but not to the point where the drumnastics come before playing tastefully and musically. The drummer I started this thread with, Virgil Donati, can play 32nd note triplets at 130 beats per minute on double bass drum pedals and can play over 1000 single strokes per minute, but approaches the drums as if it were a competitive sport! Sadly, too many young drummer wannabes think that's what drumming is all about and don't realize what's involved in becoming a good drummer, and often don't want to take the time to learn how to play time tastefully and how to groove, and listen.. ← I am sometimes surprised by drummers I have assumed are "Chopzillas" and nothing more. Several months ago I went to a clinic to check out UK drummer Simon Philips. I was delighted by his clinic and surprised when he did a segment of his clinic on bebop and straight ahead playing. he then played a couple of recordings of a jazz quintet project he's been working on and the dude can swing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Who said no drummers can swing anymore? Nonsense. Pure, utter nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted July 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Who said no drummers can swing anymore? Nonsense. Pure, utter nonsense. ← Word.. Before the clinic, I thought Simon was just a great sounding "rock drummer" .. Indeed, there are many out there comfortable in many genres.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinthopson Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dejohnette - not an ounce of sublety. He screwed up the Bill Evans at Montreaux big time. Butch Miles is a very nice guy, he's best in a big band - he woke up the Basie band a few decades ago. And talk about lack of sublety - Gene Krupa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dejohnette - not an ounce of sublety. ← I guess we have different ideas about what that means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) clinthopson, DeJohnette, not subtle? ::pulls out a red penalty flag:: listen to his work on the ballads from Jarrett's "Whisper Not", "The Bat" from Pat Metheny's "80/81", Michael Brecker's "Beau Rivage", now thats subtlety at its finest. Jack paints ballads in wonderful warm, dark cymbal colors, totally musically appropriate. IMO. Joe G, back me up cuz Jack's one of my favs.! Edited July 19, 2005 by CJ Shearn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I got your back! Jack can do anything. Sometimes he may seem to be filling up space madly. . . well I'm sure he has a reason. He can be very subtle, he can groove HARD, he can be atmospheric, he can play a mean piano, he can . . . well what can't he do well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 thanks Lon! when Jack explodes it has a completely musical purpose, not a chops fest. Also I really love the way he plays the bass drum, it really adds an implied funk quality in a lot of what he does I feel. Ex: check his classic what I like to call "broken funk" rhythm on Charlie Haden's portion of "Two Folk Songs" also on "80/81". Ditto for "The Turnaround", his loose swing makes Pat exclaim at the song's end "wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Jack DeJohnette man!" or Lee Morgan's "Jack, Jack, Jack! Jack be nimble, Jack be quick!" at the end of that absolutely burning, vicious, torrid "Speedball" on "Live at the Lighthouse". His playing on that brings everybody to a whole 'nother level, especially Lee and Bennie Maupin when they each trade 12's with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Or to hear him doing it ALL there's always the Keith Jarrett Trio version of "God Bless the Child." It's like a little microcosm of his drumming style all in one track. . . I never tire of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 yeah, I gotta grab that album sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I got your back! Jack can do anything. Sometimes he may seem to be filling up space madly. . . well I'm sure he has a reason. He can be very subtle, he can groove HARD, he can be atmospheric, he can play a mean piano, he can . . . well what can't he do well? ← I agree as well. Maybe very early in his career Jack wasn't the most subtle drummer, but he's been plenty capable of it over the past 30-35 years. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 BTW, to previous posters, it's kenny WOLLESEN, only one "n' and one "o." Very versatile drummer who can rock AND swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeface Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 (edited) Bill Bruford - despite his reputation, he's not the roll meister, I find his rolls (and grooves often) inconsistent, not so elegant at times. Carter Beauford - someone take that splash away from him already, he's not Manu Katche nor Stewart Copeland by any stretch. And the overly busy linear beats get really tiring in a folk rock context. Dennis Chambers - if nothing else, just because he's responsible for all that Beauford tries to be Mike Portnoy - don't even get me started... the one who tries to make machine gun drumming something cool and sophisticated, save us from this evil! Edited July 19, 2005 by joeface Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 no brainer, buddy rich. add his personality to his drumming and you get the total picture...........it takes one asshole(artie shaw) to recognize another asshole(buddy rich) and i hate drum kits. tony williams, elvin jones, art blakey where are you.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I will be so viciously slimed over this that it's possible I may never fully recover, but I've always struggled a bit with Philly Joe Jones. First of all, he's a fairly aggregious pattern repeater and secondly, I just find him to be a little too busy for my tastes. Mind you, it's not like I can't stand listening to the guy - if that was the case, I could just get rid of a goodly percentage of my Blue Notes - but he's just not my favorite. I know treason is a capitol offense and that I'm a dead man for even thinking this much less going on record, but, you asked, so I told. It's been nice knowing you guys. Up over and out. ← i was recently attacted on this forum for my opinions, im not going to do the same to you, you have a right to your opinions. i don't agree with you, i think pjj was a mainstay of the hard bop movement with others of course.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGUD missile Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Han Bennik really bugs me ... Dave Weckl has improved a bit of late, but his playing still overall makes me itch... Any swooshy, ping-ping, faux Paul Motian impressionistic type drummers that CANT LAY DOWN TIME outta be lined up against a wall and summarily shot . Gimme a rifle! Butch Miles while not terrible, seems over-rated IMO .. BTW: I was quite surprised that Clint didn't care for DeJohnette ..I find him to be quite excellent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 i was recently attacted on this forum for my opinions, im not going to do the same to you, you have a right to your opinions. i don't agree with you, If it isn't opinions we "disagree with", what's the point. I only learn when folks offer intelligent oppositions to my opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Some I really dislike: Billy Cobham - except for some very early records, like Ron Carter's on Embryo, or Miroslav Vitous' on SONY. ← have you heard cobham on charles earland's "intensity". i find it to be powerful but very responsive organ band playing. very impressive to my ears. not that this attones for all of his other missteps. ← No I haven't - I will keep an eye on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 The drummer I started this thread with, Virgil Donati, can play 32nd note triplets at 130 beats per minute on double bass drum pedals and can play over 1000 single strokes per minute, but approaches the drums as if it were a competitive sport! Sadly, too many young drummer wannabes think that's what drumming is all about and don't realize what's involved in becoming a good drummer, and often don't want to take the time to learn how to play time tastefully and how to groove, and listen.. ← Very well put!!! I may do injustice to Steve Smith - but his music leaves me cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 i just realized luqman ali could be someone else with an ethnicized name-it could even be lex humphries...or perhaps not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 How about Carl Allan?? Saw him live about two years ago here in KC, with a high-power pickup-group that included Bobby Watson and Cedar Walton (if I remember correctly), and a relatively big-name trumpeter (can't remember who, though). Maybe Allan was having an off night, but I can think of half a dozen local drummers that could have easily given him a run for his money. I'm not saying he's the worst drummer I've ever heard, but he certainly didn't live up to my expectations that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 (edited) And I know I'll get shot for this one (get out your machine guns, folks!!), but I think Art Blakey is a little overrated, at least in my book. ( - ducks, and runs for cover.) Yeah, he's "great", without a doubt -- but I differ with those that rank him as one of their top-5 drummers. He did what he did wonderfully (and let me repeat that -- he did what he did wonderfully), but I can't take great volumes of Art Blakey records without really wanting to hear someone else after about the second or third side. Other opinions welcomed, and even respected... Edited July 20, 2005 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontooneous Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 How about Carl Allan?? Saw him live about two years ago here in KC, with a high-power pickup-group that included Bobby Watson and Cedar Walton (if I remember correctly), and a relatively big-name trumpeter (can't remember who, though). Maybe Allan was having an off night, but I can think of half a dozen local drummers that could have easily given him a run for his money. I'm not saying he's the worst drummer I've ever heard, but he certainly didn't live up to my expectations that night. Don't judge Carl Allen on the basis of THAT horrible night. Despite the best efforts of Cedar and Bobby, that band couldn't have cohered. No rehearsal, and a coked-up trumpet player, whose name I won't mention in a public forum. Plus a clueless pickup bass player and an even more clueless pickup vocalist. It hurts to think about that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontooneous Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 But I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't like the way Butch Miles plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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