LEAST FAVORITE DRUMMERS

[marcello]

Max Roach for your ass

Edited November 3, 2006 by marcello

[Larry Kart]

Can't find the specifc quote right now, but Balliett, an amatuer drummer at one time, has actually said that Roach doesn't swing. This is a point of view rediscovered or echoed by another semi-intelligent idiot, Stuart Nicholson, in "The Essential Jazz Records Vol, 2," p. 103. Writing of the album "The Magnificent Thad Jones," Nicholson says:

"Perhaps it was the sudden and unexpected death of [Clifford] Brown on 28 June 1956, some two weeks before the first of these sessions, that explains Roach's singularly detached drumming. On 'Thedia, for example ... he is boorishly metronomic, plugging away with a basic ride pattern hear the cup his symbal throughout Jones's long solo. He maintains the same volume level throughout, taking no account of light and shade or rhythmic variety and failing to respond in any way to Jones's wholly original lines. This unyielding and unsupportive aspect of his ensemble playing is the one weak feature of this album and indeed is a criticism that can be levelled at Roach's drumming in general."

Well, Max is in a very weird mood on "Thedia" (Nicholson's description of his playing there is accurate, and it's possible that Clifford Brown's recent death had a good deal to do with this, as Nicholson suggests). But this Roach performance is a quite untypical one (even in the context of this album), and to generalize from it as Nicholson does is absurd.

[Brad]

Buddy Rich

Buddy Rich for sure. Those so-called pyrotechnics bore me.

[Elissa]

Tain is absolutely amazing; whoever the sadmofo is that listed Tain's name here could only have a tin ear. And Al Foster and Jimmy Cobb? Sorry but those guys swing! Funny tho too see them mentioned together - they are married to sisters. Course, Al Foster's playing, even today, is groovier than 98% of the beats hiphop cops. And the idea that someone who appreiates jazz could resent a drum solo - well that alone could make a girl cry. Seriously. I thought that drum solo haters were restricted to the Dooby Brothers fans.

[Brad]

I must say, I am shocked that Max Roach's name came up in this thread.

It's a blasphemy in my book.

[Elissa]

Balliet does have a point about Max before and after Brown's passing - not much in his oeuvre compares to the records they made together in terms of swing.

[Larry Kart]

Balliet does have a point about Max before and after Brown's passing - not much in his oeuvre compares to the records they made together in terms of swing.

That's not what Balliett said, and it's not really what Stuart Nicholson (author of the quoted passage to which you're referring) said either.

[Elissa]

Have you got the book handy? I read it several years back and am at work, but remember Michael James saying something not so far off.

[WD45]

Matt Wilson. He's so square he's cubical. And the sound he gets out of his kit is dead.

Yeah, & I hate it when he goes "avant-garde" & brings out a kid's raygun or something for one track on an album.

I think he's a player that maybe I get irritated with because he's everywhere, to the point where I'm guaranteed that at least one CD per month I receive for review has Matt Wilson on it.

That would be one of my bigger beefs with some avant-inclined players. Getting distracted by non-traditional methods of playing.

Since I have expressed my love for Bennink, it is clear that I enjoy non-traditional techniques.

It is just when doing it in a different way gets ahead of making music, my patience wears thin. IF you are playing in a non-traditional manner and not saying anything, you might as well step away from the instrument.

[Larry Kart]

Have you got the book handy? I read it several years back and am at work, but remember Michael James saying something not so far off.

To what book are you referring? The late Michael James is not a contributor to "The Essential Jazz Records, Vol. 2" (publ. 2000) If you mean "Modern Jazz: The Essential Records 1945-70" (publ. 1975 -- BTW a much better book IMO) here, for one, is James on the Massey Hall Concert": "...Mingus and Roach lay down a constantly inspiring beat and take gripping solos..." James also writes enthusiastically in that book of Roach's work on the album "Drums Unlimited."

[kh1958]

I must say, I am shocked that Max Roach's name came up in this thread.

It's a blasphemy in my book.

Yes, you're not getting into jazz heaven (the bebop wing anyway) if you don't love Max.

[Nate Dorward]

That would be one of my bigger beefs with some avant-inclined players. Getting distracted by non-traditional methods of playing.

No: my point was actually nearly the reverse: I find trivial nods to the avant-garde by basically mainstream players irritating.

[Elissa]

Have you got the book handy? I read it several years back and am at work, but remember Michael James saying something not so far off.

To what book are you referring? The late Michael James is not a contributor to "The Essential Jazz Records, Vol. 2" (publ. 2000) If you mean "Modern Jazz: The Essential Records 1945-70" (publ. 1975 -- BTW a much better book IMO) here, for one, is James on the Massey Hall Concert": "...Mingus and Roach lay down a constantly inspiring beat and take gripping solos..." James also writes enthusiastically in that book of Roach's work on the album "Drums Unlimited."

Actually I meant Whitney Balliet's take on Max post Clifford; and Michael James as in Duke's nephew - comments he made to me rather than published. Please don't get me wrong btw, of course I love Max - but think that there's an argument to be made that he played more academically, or with a diminished fire, after the loss of his dear friend.

[etherbored]

Tain is absolutely amazing; whoever the sadmofo is that listed Tain's name here could only have a tin ear.

why thank you!

-e-

Edited November 3, 2006 by etherbored

[Hot Ptah]

I am surprised at the insulting remarks made by some members about other members and their posts. I would think that the point of a thread such as this one is that members could express their subjective views about the drummers. Such views may be surprising and not adhere to the "party line" among jazz fans and critics. I find it fascinating that some people might not like the playing of some of the celebrated figures of the instrument, and why they don't think a lot of them. I think it is stimulating to break out of the stereotypical ways of thinking about the big names on any instrument and get some fresh perspectives.

But that's just me.

[Guest the mommy]

no, the roach quote i meant was something about how his playing means to elevate the listener, yet the listener's feet remain firmly on the ground for the duration of the roach experience.

[Jazz Kat]

Max Roach has a great feal! He also plays some of the most colorful and inventive drum solos I have ever heard.

[Jazz Kat]

Also about Buddy Rich. He may be thought of as an old tired out-of-date swing drummer, but listen to his 1960's recordings. His feel is so fresh, it would of worked fine in a modern jazz setting. He was technically gifted! And for his achievements for that, he should be considered one of the greatest drummers of the 20th century.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Jazz Kat

[relyles]

The only drummer I can recall drawing my attention in a negative way is Jim Black. I have heard him on recordings with Ellery Eskelin and a disc with Kris Defoort and Mark Turner. I always seem to notice him - and react negatively. I probably need to give him more time.

[sal]

The only drummer I can recall drawing my attention in a negative way is Jim Black. I have heard him on recordings with Ellery Eskelin and a disc with Kris Defoort and Mark Turner. I always seem to notice him - and react negatively. I probably need to give him more time.

Try a Dave Liebman/Ellery Eskelin disc called "Different but the Same" on Hathut. His drumming on there is incredible.

[relyles]

The only drummer I can recall drawing my attention in a negative way is Jim Black. I have heard him on recordings with Ellery Eskelin and a disc with Kris Defoort and Mark Turner. I always seem to notice him - and react negatively. I probably need to give him more time.

Try a Dave Liebman/Ellery Eskelin disc called "Different but the Same" on Hathut. His drumming on there is incredible.

I have that disc and enjoy it a lot. I simply did not notice Black as much on that disc.

[Kyo]

I'll start with Australian drummer Virgil Donati. I saw him at a drum clinic 2 years ago and tired very quickly of his ego driven display of pyrotechnics, .. His 15 minute solo had absolutely no musical value or composition and was just a loud barrage of violent assaults based primarily around double bass pedaling, with no discernable theme, dynamics, or colors. It reminded me of an intense thunderstorm, or the sound of a city being bombed for 15 minutes.. I lasted about 11 minutes and had to flee!

For me it was a lesson on what not to play on a drumkit..

Couldn't help but notice this revived old thread. I'd just like to say that while

I'm a bass player and not a drummer, Virgil Donati's approach to music and

his total dedication to the craft are a huge inspiration for me. I saw him at a

clinic a month and a half ago and was in awe for the whole time. He started

off with a 30 minute drum solo and then explained many of the ideas he had

improvised upon during that solo in detail later on - he has a really amazing

polyrhythmic conception that will not sound "groovy" to the "usual" listener,

but personally I can't get enough of those 5:4 polyrhythmic patterns. In their

own way I think they groove like hell (very much like Meshuggah's music).

Edited November 3, 2006 by Kyo

[Elissa]

I like the turn this thread has taken to standing up for drummers dissed.

Apologies if my defense of Tain was too personal.

[mikeweil]

Here is another candidate, i would add Charly Antolini as one of my least-fav-drummers to the list.

Oh yeah - often rolling over the heads without using his own head ....

[mikeweil]

Jon Hiseman

Much more familiar with his work in the late '60s/early '70s, essentially pre-Colosseum. I like him with the pianists, and he's solid on the Jack Bruce Things We Like LP. Maybe he took a turn for the worse later.

That Jack Bruce is nice indeed - but the way he played with Colosseum or the United Jazz & Rock Ensemble bores me.