Is rap tomorrow's jazz?

[JSngry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5xd2HFIIYU

[Big Beat Steve]

I don't know, do you think some of these guys who openly talk about killing cops and smacking women around are just cases of arrested development? I wouldn't be so sure. IMO, comparing the lyrics of old R&B tunes to those of gansta rap is an apples to oranges argument. Times change and so does intent.

Of course I cannot vouch for anybody among those, but somehow I feel that at least in SOME cases (don't ask me about percentages ) that "gangsta" attitude is just an attempt at "posing". A rather nasty one but still one more out to gain attention among their group peers.

Times do change, but just try to picture somebody with the "track record" of Leadbelly in today's rap scene and try to imagine Leadbelly's musical career in today's rap terms. The weay the media would wriote it up, it would make a real nasty character, wouldn't it, and where would he rate in public esteem if (as has been the case with Leadbelly IIRC) he'd landed back in the can AFTER having "sung" his way out of jail a first time?

Don't get me wrong, I certainly would not want to belittle the potential criminal energy of SOME of those rappers (and I do feel uneasy about some aspects of it all too, at least the way it's being shown in the media) and to a certain degree you cannot avoid comparing apples with oranges because times do change indeed. Yet I fail to see where the difference is between smacking a woman around (to stay with your eaxmple) in 1949 and in 2010. And don't tell me it never occurred in real life then (and was sung about). But I'll leave the analyses of the autobiographic content of blues and rap lyrics to others.

[A Lark Ascending]

The problem with so much of this discussion thus far is that it projects all kinds of things that are part of the inner psyche of the posters onto the music the musicians are playing. How much of what people are claiming is "about" the music of any era IS actually objectively about the music - rather than being about their own biases and prejudices and hindsight?

I could have written that! Does it apply to contemporary Americana...or Eric Alexander?

[Christiern]

"The problem with so much of this discussion thus far is that it projects all kinds of things that are part of the inner psyche of the posters onto the music the musicians are playing. How much of what people are claiming is "about" the music of any era IS actually objectively about the music - rather than being about their own biases and prejudices and hindsight?"

Might one not apply the same assumptions to your expressed opinions or evaluations? How do you distinguish honest opinion from one that is (in your mind) biased? Taste, as someone once said, is a matter of preference It is influenced by so many factors and, thus, subject to change. I don't see the "problem" with this discussion that you obviously feel is there. When it comes to judging artistic judgement, none of us really has an advantage over the other—I fail to see how someone's "inner psyche" (or parts thereof) can be a "problem." Are we not discussing intangibles? One man's rap is another man's crap. Nothing very deep and mysterious about that. Some of the awful "avant garde" performances I sat through in the Sixties were truly awful when measured against other performances in that genre. When a musician is not in control of his instrument, when notes are sounds of happenstance (as when a water buffalo shits on canvas) the result loses validity as a personal expression. Well, at least I think so. Now, if that water buffalo could also render a likeness of, say, a tree (or Bella Abzug) l might believe that its shit was more than random droppings—I might take a closer look, as it were.

My inner psyche now tells me to stop and post.

[JSngry]

Ok, this is really funny. I didn't write that at all - I stole it from another poster on another thread, somebody who's posted on this thread, somebody who has little to no use for rap/hip-hop. That person either didn't recognize their own words or else chose to ignore the theft. No matter, there is an irony at play here that was not appreciated then, and will probably be scorned/whatever now. Oh well!

I think some people sometimes value their "opinions" more than they do their life. Sometimes a sunny spring day is a sunny spring day, fuck having an "opinion" about it. And sometimes shit stinks. Fuck having an "opinion" about that too.

Me, I think we're all pretty much full of shit just as much as we are all beautiful. It's just a question of how honest we are with ourselves about how much of both we are at any given time.

Enjoy, then!

[ghost of miles]

A little Public Enemy (late period) stuck in my head this a.m.:

He Got Game

It's from 1998, well past their peak, but I remember quite clearly the visceral excitement of their first three records. Can't wait for the new 33 1/3 book about It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back.

The book is out:

I've been listening to FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET again this past week--man, what an event that was when it came out in 1990. That and NATION OF MILLIONS still sound pretty amazing to me whenever I throw them on.

[AllenLowe]

well, I always try to distinguish between something which has genuine issues of technique, performance, expression, and something which I just don't get, or which requires more of my time and attention than it has so far received.

hip hop does not, yet, hold my attention for long, though I've, mildly, made the effort (only the Beastie Boys keeps me going, so far, but that's probably just because there's too much which I have not heard).

I just think I need a crash course, because so much of the criticism against hip hop is couched in the same language which was used to criticize so many of the "old" modern forms, from expressionist painting to new music, for which I have deep appreciation.

it also may have to do with the changing manner in which we listen to music - somehow I can't see listening to hip hop in my living room with my $5000 speakers and my pipe and slippers and a slinky blond (well, maybe the slinky blond; don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater).

maybe it's more of a group (listening) music, a dance music, a headphones music. And maybe not meant for the likes of me, though I hear aspects of it which I would like to use for my own stuff.

as for jazz musicians killing each other - yes, not a common occurence, but I have known more screwed-up people leading destructive life styles that were harmful to children and families, in the jazz world, than I have known in any other walk of life.

Edited September 17, 2010 by AllenLowe

[mjazzg]

David Murray, The Roots, The Last Poets and some of Living Colour presented Tongues of Fire, a tribute to the Black Panthers in London last week.

No misogyny or gun-toting (except in the accompanying visuals) here but some great rap, spoken word and Jazz all in one sonic brew.

[JETman]

only the Beastie Boys keeps me going, so far,

As a NYC boy myself, I feel totally within my rights to say "Oy, Ve"!

[cih]

At school I was into Hip Hop for a little while - I never stopped liking it but drifted away, the kids who really loved it became part of a whole scene - DJing, grafitti, clothes - same as with any youth subculture (it swept away the early eighties mod revival)... I loved these oldies as a kid (still sound GREAT to me!):

Roxanne Shante

Spoonie Gee

Edited September 17, 2010 by cih

[JSngry]

Let's talk evolution (if 1998 counts as such...)

[cih]

Interesting video (for someone who stopped listening early nineties!) – it sounds much more like performance poetry – more emphasis on the weight of words rather than the rhythmic attack… to my ears the music changed as the function changed, same as with jazz – from dance accompaniment to artform in its own right. I think the performer has always been in a very close relationship with the audience, each unable to escape the other maybe – hence a lot of the troubles with gangster rap (If I refuse to examine the music beyond its aesthetic qualities - a notion evidently problematic with black music – I have to admit that some of the violent stuff sounds very seductive – Ice T’s ‘New Jack Hustler’ for example…). Like the early Jamaican Djs who were really there to encourage dancing by toasting over the backing track – the old school stuff sounded playful … and like in Jamaica, once the technique is down on record you have to find stuff to rap about – but without a resident millennial religious sect to provide inspiration, the secular issues of everyday life seem a valid alternative. The sampled elements are as legitimate as Picasso pasting ‘real’ objects onto his canvases…

Btw - being always drawn (through some psychopathological shortcoming no doubt) to the study of prehistoric animals rather than the currently flourishing, I’m also tempted to look for US antecedents in people like Wynonie Harris – but I think it’s difficult to place exactly where any precursors lie – there are probably real ones, and plenty of illusory ones – the preacher records, with rhythmic talking over a background congregation (Isiah Shelton’s ‘The Liar’), or someone like Pinetop Smith who calls out encouragement to the dancers over, and extra to the boogie background – much like the early toasters, but then there’s Emmett Miller’s ‘The Gypsy’ – which erupts into a kind of blackface rap halfway through… so I’ll stick with the DJ, the turntable and the hungry crowd!

[Neal Pomea]

Hard to picture that the word "rap" will have as much cachet as the word "jazz" has had for so long! Picture the musical changes that took place just from 1920 to 1960, with all kinds of different and great new musical styles all wanting to continue calling themselves jazz. Have there been as many new musics from 1970 to 2010 that have continued to want to call themselves rap? Rap has quite a way to go and may never reach the bar.

And as for the term "hip hop"? I can't see how in the world that term hasn't been mocked and ridiculed out of existence by now. Our comedians are really asleep on the job! Sounds about like hippity hop or hop scotch, some kind of girly game! What a name for a supposedly menacing cultural phenomenon!

[JSngry]

[cih]

Hard to picture that the word "rap" will have as much cachet as the word "jazz" has had for so long! Picture the musical changes that took place just from 1920 to 1960, with all kinds of different and great new musical styles all wanting to continue calling themselves jazz. Have there been as many new musics from 1970 to 2010 that have continued to want to call themselves rap? Rap has quite a way to go and may never reach the bar.

It's hardly a fair comparison really - 'rap' is just a specific vocal style, fairer perhaps (though equally pointless) to compare rap to 'scat' or something...

As for the influence of Hip Hop - merely, as you hint at, a question of rebranding - there have been an infinite number of new 'genres' that came out of Hip Hop... and its elements have been incorporated into just about every other genre - metal, reggae, bangra, punk, blues... besides which, the whole look of things has changed after it, look at the way people write on walls compared to 40 years ago, or the way kids talk (even here in the UK there's an extremely pronounced difference) or graphic design, TV shows, FASHION.. etc etc.

Edited September 19, 2010 by cih

[AllenLowe]

is the label "hip hop" any sillier than Jazz or Ragtime? (see It Should be You, above)

[Neal Pomea]

Absolutely sillier! Obviously.

[JSngry]

[cih]

Absolutely sillier! Obviously.

How about 'be-bop' or 'boogie-woogie'...

[Neal Pomea]

Absolutely sillier! Obviously.

How about 'be-bop' or 'boogie-woogie'...

But they succeeded in calling themselves jazz somehow. Not rap. Much less hip hop.

[Neal Pomea]

Hard to picture that the word "rap" will have as much cachet as the word "jazz" has had for so long! Picture the musical changes that took place just from 1920 to 1960, with all kinds of different and great new musical styles all wanting to continue calling themselves jazz. Have there been as many new musics from 1970 to 2010 that have continued to want to call themselves rap? Rap has quite a way to go and may never reach the bar.

It's hardly a fair comparison really - 'rap' is just a specific vocal style, fairer perhaps (though equally pointless) to compare rap to 'scat' or something...

As for the influence of Hip Hop - merely, as you hint at, a question of rebranding - there have been an infinite number of new 'genres' that came out of Hip Hop... and its elements have been incorporated into just about every other genre - metal, reggae, bangra, punk, blues... besides which, the whole look of things has changed after it, look at the way people write on walls compared to 40 years ago, or the way kids talk (even here in the UK there's an extremely pronounced difference) or graphic design, TV shows, FASHION.. etc etc.

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Edited September 20, 2010 by It Should be You

[AllenLowe]

actually, I could be wrong, but I haven't heard anyone use the term "rap" in a long time. I don't think they care what we think of it, except that calling it by the wrong name just affirms how out of touch we are.

and I don't think they give a *** about prestige and art; so more power to them.

[JSngry]

I don't think most people consider rap to be just a vocal style like scat before it or talking blues or vocalese. It's a musical genre. Tries to sell that way. To that end, I meant that the word "rap" will not have the cachet of the word "jazz". From 1920 to 1960, all sorts of musical styles such as swing, big band, be bop, cool, hard bop, soul jazz, free jazz, etc. have all tried to align themselves somehow with jazz, i.e. the music originally called jazz by the first people who called their music jazz in the 1920s. No way rap will carry that kind of prestige. Definitely NOT infinite number of musical genres coming out of rap. Not a single one yet in 30-40 years. A musical style as different from King Oliver as Sun Ra or Modern Jazz Quartet. Calling itself rap because the word "rap" is too cool to let go of? No way!

Not only do you not know what it is, you don't even know that there's something been happening here, do you, Mr. Jones?

[Noj]

[cih]

Of course jazz underwent incredible changes under that banner during it’s first 30 years of recording - but it was a different world - there may have been all kinds of reasons to not stray from the hard-fought prestige of the word ‘jazz’ - could the beboppers afford to abandon any link to it even if they had wanted to? - not just prestige at stake but a livelihood too... anyway, they were insiders already weren’t they? The possibilities within jazz were stretched, but maybe it had to be called jazz, in the same way that Marcel Duchamp still had to sign his anti-art artworks in the time-honoured fashion - or else, as he said, he’d have been put in an asylum.

Nowadays the idea of difference, or disorder or discontinuity is much better tolerated (expected even... and probably jazz helped this situation come about) and so anyone who sets up a studio and starts putting out a slight variation on a theme feels the need to call it something new, rebrand it, give it a spin and see if it runs for a year or two before someone invents something else. The individual is valued over the ‘movement’.

Edited September 20, 2010 by cih