Kanye West

[Soulstation1]

i like the video with jamie foxx, sampling i've got a women

i think his cd is released today

anyone like kayne?

he could be the real deal

Edited September 4, 2005 by Use3D

[RainyDay]

I am loath to get into a conversation here about popular music, but as someone who basically despises 99.9% of most rap music, I like this guy. He needs to lose the b-word and n-word references for my tastes but I like the idea of someone setting the bar higher for rap music (although when you consider how far in the gutter most rap is, that may not be saying a whole lot).

There was an article in yesterday's LA Times about West and he is on the cover of this week's TIME magazine. If nothing else, it's nice to see someone who actually has some facility with language rapping. It's been an ongoing irony that rappers, people who live by spoke word, have such limited vocabularies, literally and figuratively. And it's refreshing to see/hear someone with a degree of sophistication rapping.

I saw an interview with him on MTV2 where he spoke directly to the camera and asked rappers to lose their homophobic ways. West is definitely coming from a different place. I don't own any of his work but I may invest in some. I like some of his work, "All Falls Down," and he rapped on a Dilated Peeples song that I liked a lot. He brought us John Legend (reviled on this board) but who has been well received by people across the musical spectrum. I like the political focus of the song about diamonds featuring Shirly Bassy's "Diamonds Are Forever." The Gold Digger song is clever. I like him and I hope he does have a positive impact on rap. Suspect he will be around awhile in any event because he produces as well as raps and he has a good ear. His music has some texture (strings in a rap song?) and complexity. It's still rap but he's taken it to another level.

[Noj]

Rainy, I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I say!

[Soulstation1]

jon

u picking up this cd?

[RainyDay]

Rainy, I'm shocked.  SHOCKED, I say!

←

I'll break out the smelling salts.

[sal]

My buddy got an advance copy, and I heard the first half of it. Its nice.

Kanye West is the only reason I've bought a new hip hop CD in the last 5 years. I like "The College Dropout", as well as Common's new disc "Be". Kanye produced that album.

Both MCs from Chicago!

[Noj]

I've yet to pick up any of the Kanye West stuff, though I did dig a song I heard a while back on an MTV video. If even Rainy approves, then he's surely the sort of rapper I like to listen to. Kanye produced one of the best tracks on the second Mos Def album.

[Jazzmoose]

Oops...I was thinking Candye Kayne...nevermind.

[chandra]

Can I ask an admittedly dumb question?

If rap is a combination of street smart lyrics plus fast spoken word, what distinguishes good rap from bad rap? What I am thinking is, there are obviously people outside of the rap artist scene who can write kick-ass lyrics along the same vein, and there are rappers who can rap many words a second, and there are producers dime a dozen who can sample someone else's song as a background, if you combine these three, it should be a no-brainer to come up with a damn good sounding rap song, isn't it? I am not trying to simplify the making of a rap song, but there does not seem to be much 'music' there.

It is obviously a rhetorical question, but the real question in my mind is, if the above is not that far from the truth, how does one discriminate between a good rap song and a bad one? Is Kanye considered good because his lyrics are not gutter-level crap that other rappers employ? If that is the criterian, then there are thousand others who can write lyrics that are better than the gutter level crap. So there has got to be more than that to consider Kanye to be better than others.

May be, there is a completely different gestalt at play here, like street-cred, which I don't know much about.

[chuckyd4]

I thought College Dropout was decent, but have been kind of "meh" towards Late Registration. I love his production, as always, though.

[Chuck Nessa]

Lemme get this straight - he needs a new joint and somebody registered late. Is there some sort of penalty for late registration?

All of this is beyond my caring.

[Noj]

Can I ask an admittedly dumb question?

If rap is a combination of street smart lyrics plus fast spoken word, what distinguishes good rap from bad rap? What I am thinking is, there are obviously people outside of the rap artist scene who can write kick-ass lyrics along the same vein, and there are rappers who can rap many words a second, and there are producers dime a dozen who can sample someone else's song as a background, if you combine these three, it should be a no-brainer to come up with a damn good sounding rap song, isn't it? I am not trying to simplify the making of a rap song, but  there does not seem to be much 'music' there.

Rap CAN be that boring and uncreative and sell. The best rap isn't what sells, just like Kenny G isn't good jazz yet he's famous and sells records. I would argue against the idea that just anyone can rap. I can't rap.

It is obviously a rhetorical question, but the real question in my mind is, if the above is not that far from the truth, how does one discriminate between a good rap song and a bad one? Is Kanye considered good because his lyrics are not gutter-level crap that other rappers employ? If that is the criterian, then there are thousand others who can write lyrics that are better than the gutter level crap. So there has got to be more than that to consider Kanye to be better than others.

Your first statement CAN be far from the truth. Contrary to popular belief among rap haters, rap is not best represented by all of its worst qualities.

May be, there is a completely different gestalt at play here, like street-cred, which I don't know much about.

←

I don't know about street cred either, since I'm from the suburbs.

I enjoy listening to rappers who have a few good things to say and find creative ways to get them across. Kanye has original beats (yes, original), and a good perspective on things, I gather. There are actually rappers who aren't thugs that used to slang drugs. True story.

I'd say people who don't like beats, who don't like reggae or dub, who don't like funk, who don't like beat machines at all, who don't like the sound of turntables scratching or the idea of sampling...rap isn't for you. Unless you're interested enough to take the time to investigate it thoroughly, you'll never understand what makes for a good rap song or a good beat.

Chuck will never care about rap. Good for Chuck, I wouldn't ask him to. Chuck knows more about jazz than I ever will, and I am thankful he's out there posting about it so I can learn.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'd say people who don't like beats, who don't like reggae or dub, who don't like funk, who don't like beat machines at all, who don't like the sound of turntables scratching or the idea of sampling...rap isn't for you.  Unless you're interested enough to take the time to investigate it thoroughly, you'll never understand what makes for a good rap song or a good beat.

Chuck will never care about rap.  Good for Chuck, I wouldn't ask him to.  Chuck knows more about jazz than I ever will, and I am thankful he's out there posting about it so I can learn.

←

Sorry, I find this condescending. I might have spent time with all of these musics and made a judgement.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry, I've been sulking a bit after feeling the result of a "back-handed compliment".

I was introduced to reggae by Desmond Decker and the Aces in 1975. I met Tommy Silverman (Tommy Boy) around 1979/80.

How old were you then?

[Noj]

I'd say people who don't like beats, who don't like reggae or dub, who don't like funk, who don't like beat machines at all, who don't like the sound of turntables scratching or the idea of sampling...rap isn't for you.  Unless you're interested enough to take the time to investigate it thoroughly, you'll never understand what makes for a good rap song or a good beat.

Chuck will never care about rap.  Good for Chuck, I wouldn't ask him to.  Chuck knows more about jazz than I ever will, and I am thankful he's out there posting about it so I can learn.

←

Sorry, I find this condescending. I might have spent time with all of these musics and made a judgement.

←

I didn't intend to condescend or be rude, so I'm sorry I came across that way Chuck. You've made brief, dismissive comments about rap in a few threads, but I have not read your whole take on things. Perhaps I rush to judge too quickly. I was barely an itch in my daddy's pants in '75.

I've noticed the people I know who like rap are also into other rhythm-heavy genres. I think there is some truth there. The repetitive nature of rap is a very common complaint.

My compliments are sincere, Chuck. I truly appreciate the knowledge you bring to the board and have enjoyed your posts for years (even the funny barbs directed at me recently). Hope there's no hard feelings. I intended it as more of a "to each his own" comment.

Edited August 29, 2005 by Noj

[chandra]

I would argue against the idea that just anyone can rap.  I can't rap.

I was not making that point and I agree that not everyone can rap. But, if I consider just the act of rapping ( and not the background music or beats or lyrics ), I can't tell a good rapper from another one a notch below. A friend of mine tells me that Eminem is super great because he can rap with lyrics that don't even rhyme. And I guess another criteria is how many words you can actually fit in a few beat intervals.

Your first statement CAN be far from the truth.  Contrary to popular belief among rap haters, rap is not best represented by all of its worst qualities.

I am not a rap hater. I will characterize myself as 'rap can't-relater'.

I think I understand in theory what you mean by the representation of rap, but would you agree that vast majority of the popular rap lyrics out there are gutter level women-hating stuff, that is what defines rap today?

I enjoy listening to rappers who have a few good things to say and find creative ways to get them across.  Kanye has original beats (yes, original), and a good perspective on things, I gather.  There are actually rappers who aren't thugs that used to slang drugs.  True story.

Thanks. This is what I was trying to glean as to where the appeal for rap is. I agree that 'having a few good things to say and finding creative ways to get them across' is not easy and I may appreciate that creativity. Can you cite some examples of such lyrics?

I'd say people who don't like beats, who don't like reggae or dub, who don't like funk, who don't like beat machines at all, who don't like the sound of turntables scratching or the idea of sampling...rap isn't for you.  .

I did not know that rappers invent new and original beats. Some of what I hear sound very catchy ( even 50 cent ) and I thought they sample existing music through the production process. I like beats and I am a sucker for the hook that a catchy beat creates.

Unless you're interested enough to take the time to investigate it thoroughly, you'll never understand what makes for a good rap song or a good beat

Like the point you made 'having to say something interesting and finding a creative way to say that', I would like to know if there are other attributes in the actual act of 'rapping' and the background music where one can discriminate between good and not so good. I can't really spend lot of time to investigate thoroughly but I would be interested in getting some recommendations of what is considered good rap whose lyrics don't use racist overtones or demeaning women.

Edited August 29, 2005 by chandra

[Noj]

Chandra, in my opinion Eminem is the best at making the most offensive raps possible. He's the antithesis of political correctness. Personally, I can't listen to him. He's clever, and funny from a "bullshitting with your boys" perspective. It's rap that is all about being the "most wrong" and its history has often involved Dr. Dre. When I was a kid, this style was being popularized by groups such as 2Live Crew, Too Short, and Dr. Dre-produced acts such as NWA and Eazy-E.

One of the most interesting rappers is Kool Keith, who makes a parody of the whole "offensive rap" thing by REALLY going over the top. He made a whole album that was entirely about sex (Keith might be genuinely disturbed). In one song Keith mocks the so-called hardcore acts and their popularity with the chorus, "little girls think you're hardcore."

There are many different creative approaches to "flowing" over the beat. Take a rapper such as Aceyalone and compare his delivery to Mos Def, or even compare Mos Def to his partner Talib Kweli, then listen to KRS-One and Posdnuos...it's all very individual. All four of these rappers are often very positive in their message and intent.

Another aspect of rap which makes it offensive is the notion of "battling," which is basically a cutting contest of insults between rappers (Eminem kicks ass at this). A lot of raps are addressed to a supposed opposing rapper, so you'll hear a lot of "I'm this, you're that" sort of raps. They are my least favorite raps. There's also raps that are all about rap itself, those can get on my nerves too just because it is a tired topic.

Tough to find the diamonds in the rough, but I think there is genuine creativity to be found in rap. One new band I've really been liking is the Youngblood Brass Band, who actually have a live horn section and a tuba running their basslines. It comes off like some sort of funky school marching band, but man they've got some cool things happening!

I've got a new thread going in which some of the organissimo board members have agreed to listen to some rap compilations I put together. The thread is called Noj's Rap Blindfold Test, and I'm hoping for responses to start rolling in in a week or so.

[Soulstation1]

getting a haircut and then goin' to best buy

the cd is $9.99 @ bb

[Brandon Burke]

Kanye West is the Puff Daddy of the backpacker scene: an arrogant ass who honestly thinks he's revolutionizing music--not just hip hop, but music in general--by rehashing Golden Era production (Pete Rock, Diamond D, Lord Finesse, etc) for today's mega-huge rap stars...as though no one had ever sampled dusty soul records before.

Sorry to be the old crumudgeon here, but c'mon...

[Brandon Burke]

Can I ask an admittedly dumb question?

If rap is a combination of street smart lyrics plus fast spoken word, what distinguishes good rap from bad rap? What I am thinking is, there are obviously people outside of the rap artist scene who can write kick-ass lyrics along the same vein, and there are rappers who can rap many words a second, and there are producers dime a dozen who can sample someone else's song as a background, if you combine these three, it should be a no-brainer to come up with a damn good sounding rap song, isn't it? I am not trying to simplify the making of a rap song, but  there does not seem to be much 'music' there.

It is obviously a rhetorical question, but the real question in my mind is, if the above is not that far from the truth, how does one discriminate between a good rap song and a bad one? Is Kanye considered good because his lyrics are not gutter-level crap that other rappers employ? If that is the criterian, then there are thousand others who can write lyrics that are better than the gutter level crap. So there has got to be more than that to consider Kanye to be better than others.

May be, there is a completely different gestalt at play here, like street-cred, which I don't know much about.

←

This is not a dumb question at all.

I think what you're expressing is a perfectly legitimate understanding of rap culture. But like everything else, however, there's more to it than that...

As I see it, MCing is quite a bit like jazz in that it's not so much speed as it is *control*. Famed mid-80's New York MC, Rakim, admits that he modeled the cadences and melodies of his raps on bop and soul-jazz horn players. Give him a listen if you get the chance. If you neglect the words and pay attention instead only to the sounds, it's not at all unlike Lou Donaldson...only Rakim is a tremendously gifted lyricist as well.

One of the chief tendencies in rap culture is the manipulation (read: deconstrucion) of other media. And these media manifest themselves in a number of ways: Anglo English, recorded sound, etc.

Lyrically, this is often expressed by twisting originally intended (read: the canonical) meanings of words around by, for example, playing homnyms against one other. It is also paramount that one choose his/her verbage based on the percussive qualities of each word (the placement and selective use of harsh consonants, long vowels, etc). You can think of this as the "keys," "pads," or "amboucheure" of the hip hop MC.

Musically, the guys who really appreciate the culture use only small portions of several completely different samples in a loop...a kick drum from a Dusty Springfield record here...a ride from a Grant Green record there...maybe the organ from a campy 60's psych horror film. (This says nothing, of course, for the fact that every sample has to be individualy EQed to work with the rest!)

Add to this the necessary--and wildly ambiguous--element of *soul* and you've got yourself a pretty tall order, as creative and culturally loaded endeavors go. It ain't easy...

Edited August 31, 2005 by Brandon Burke

[Noj]

Brandon, I should have inquired with you about participating in my Rap BFT. Very insightful. You've put into words several ideas I've struggled to elucidate.

[chuckyd4]

Kanye West is the Puff Daddy of the backpacker scene: an arrogant ass who honestly thinks he's revolutionizing music--not just hip hop, but music in general--by rehashing Golden Era production (Pete Rock, Diamond D, Lord Finesse, etc) for today's mega-huge rap stars...as though no one had ever sampled dusty soul records before. 

Sorry to be the old crumudgeon here, but c'mon...

←

I'm not claiming that I've got any kind of huge love for Kanye (I already mentioned how I don't really dig much on Late Registration), but I think the the "rehashing Golden Era production" isn't entirely true. For instance, on the new one, he actually had the whole thing produced by Jon Brion (of Fiona Apple fame, among others). I don't think the result was particularly amazing, but it's certainly different than simply sampling some soul records.

I see where you're coming from, but I think it's a bit of an overreaction. I only wish Diddy put half as much thought into the shit he does as West does.

Definitely doesn't measure up to Diamond D, for instance, though, you're right! (I was just listening to Stunts, Blunts, etc. the other day).

[Soulstation1]

anyone get a chance to hear this cd?

[Jazzmoose]

I realize I'm an odd one to be weighing in on the "good rap" vs "bad rap" question, but for me, the good stuff is the stuff where I don't care what the words are, where the artist becomes more of a percussionist than a vocalist, where the cadence of the rap just carries me along, no matter what the person is actually saying. Fast, or even clever, isn't enough; it's got to pull me in the way Art Blakey at the drums pulls me in...

[Alexander]

I agree with Moose's comment above. For me good rapping has less to do with lyrical cleverness and more to do with flow. That's why for the life of me I CAN'T fathom the appeal of 50 Cent. Here's a guy with the personality of a bowl of cold oatmeal. He talks like he has a mouth full of marbles. His raps are lifeless. I guess there are some who find his "thug" persona sexy, but I ain't one of them...