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tranemonk

Proper Box, Mosaic and Eldridge set Question

17 posts in this topic

I'm sure this has been covered before... and I know a little about the European vs. US vs. other countries (Spain) licensing issues but here's my story and question...

A friend gave me the 4CD Proper Box... "Roy Eldridge - Little Jazz Trumpet Giant." Disc 4 is entitled "Dale's Wail." When the Mosaic box came out, I was tempted to order it and actually had ordered it before I looked carefully at the Proper Box and the Mosaic discography.

Mosaic's set... two sessions (or so) comprise "Dale's Wal;" with the following from their website..

"(D) THE ROY ELDRIDGE QUINTET: Roy Eldridge (tp), Oscar Peterson (org), Barney Kessel (g), Ray Brown (b), Jo Jones (d).

Fulton Studios, NYC, April 23, 1953

1222-1 Love For Sale Clef 89056

1223-5 Dale’s Wail -

1224-3 The Man I Love Clef (Au) CL011 (45)

1225-2 Oscar’s Arrangement -

1223-10 Dale’s Wail (alt) previously unissued

1223-12 Dale’s Wail (alt) previously unissued

1223-13 Dale’s Wail (alt) previously unissued

Note: All issued titles on Clef EPC200, MGC150, MGC705, Verve MGV8089. Take 13 of Dale’s Wail was originally chosen as the master take, but take 5 was ultimately used for release. The alternate takes of Dale's Wail were recorded at the end of the session. _____________________________________________________________________________

(E) THE ROY ELDRIDGE QUINTET: Roy Eldridge (tp), Oscar Peterson (p), Herb Ellis (g), Ray Brown (b), Alvin Stoller (d).

Radio Recorders, LA, December 10, 1953

1379-6 Willow Weep For Me Clef 89110

1380-2 Somebody Loves Me -

1381-1 When Your Lover Has Gone Clef 89123

1382-8 When It’s Sleepy Time Down South Clef 89116

1382-9 When It’s Sleepy Time Down South (alt) previously unissued

1383-1 Feeling A Draft

1384-2 Don’t Blame Me

1385-3 Echoes Of Harlem Clef 89116

1385-4 Echoes Of Harlem (10” LP master)

1386-3 I Can’t Get Started Clef 89123

Note: For 1384, discographies and Verve files list take –1, which is actually a false start, as the master.

All titles (except 1382-9 & 1385-3) issued on Clef MGC162

All titles (except 1382-9 & 1385-4) issued on Clef MGC705, Verve MGV8089"

When I found this out... I cancelled my Mosaic order... (since I hate having doubles and had concerns that there was more duplication than that one session.... )

I'm assuming that Mosaic has the "legitmate" rights to this? I'm also assuming that the Mosaic sound is way better than the Proper?

How can this happen? Why doesn't Cuscuna go after these guys? Should I ditch the Proper box and get the Mosaic??? Why???

thanks...

And how often does this happen? Am I the 1st one to notice this? :wacko::wacko::wacko:

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You should get the Mosaic because it's legit and because it's a treasure.

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You should get the Mosaic because it's legit and because it's a treasure.

But what about the Proper Box of Quartet Out?

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if your friend gave you the proper box for nothing, why cancel the mosaic order? it's not like you're losing any money. as far as michael going after these guys, it's not illegal for proper to manufacture and sell this box in parts of the world where the copyright has expired. what is wrong, and possibly illegal, is for proper to wholesale them to vendors who sell in the u.s., and for the vendors to sell them to people like your friend, if he's in the u.s. i agree with jim. buy the mosaic. great music, great sound, great company.

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You should get the Mosaic because it's legit and because it's a treasure.

But what about the Proper Box of Quartet Out?

That would be highly Im-Proper, and in more ways than one!

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How can this happen? Why doesn't Cuscuna go after these guys? Should I ditch the Proper box and get the Mosaic??? Why???

thanks...

And how often does this happen? Am I the 1st one to notice this?  :wacko:  :wacko:  :wacko:

The problem is Mosaic would have to track down the importers and sue them for bringing in "pirated" recordings. They also would need to get lawyers to write all the stores with this product - your neighborhood store or Amazon. Uptown spent over $10,000 doing this for the Mingus cd and there is NO WAY this paid off.

Best advice is "if it smells bad, step away".

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Like Jim said, the Mosaic is the legit one. In Europe, it's not illegal to make these. Unethical yes, illegal no. So you can't go after Proper.

Edited by Brad

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Proper is crap in every way - aside from the un-ethical concept of copying the Mosaic project, they screw up the sound all the time, too much noise reduction, audible digital distortion introduced by de-clicking - run, don't walk, from Proper -

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Proper is crap in every way - aside from the un-ethical concept of copying the Mosaic project, they screw up the sound all the time, too much noise reduction, audible digital distortion introduced by de-clicking - run, don't walk, from Proper -

As far as I'm concerned the same goes for many of those other European labels, like Definitive, JSP (with the exception of their early, J.R.T. Davies remastered sets), etc.

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I haven't noticed a sound problem with the few Definitive sets I have, but they are not technically great recordings anyway: Charlie Parker Savoy studio and live (4CDs each), Fats Navarro (Blue Moon label), Dizzy Gillespie (Complete Bluebird & Musicraft Recordings & The Pleyel Concert). They sound like straight dubs from previous CD reissues.

The Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall reissue by Definitive is said to be the best sounding version, but I haven't heard it myself.

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Proper is crap in every way - aside from the un-ethical concept of copying the Mosaic project, they screw up the sound all the time, too much noise reduction, audible digital distortion introduced by de-clicking - run, don't walk, from Proper -

As far as I'm concerned the same goes for many of those other European labels, like Definitive, JSP (with the exception of their early, J.R.T. Davies remastered sets), etc.

Gotta disagree. Proper is by far the worst of these labels sonically. I don't endorse the thievery of any of them, but a number of the Definitive releases demonstrate that somebody with pretty good ears is behind their efforts. JSP has become a bit more hit and miss, but they are usually no WORSE than the competition on given titles......whereas Proper seems to find new ways to screw up the sonic qualities of all that they touch.

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Proper is crap in every way - aside from the un-ethical concept of copying the Mosaic project, they screw up the sound all the time, too much noise reduction, audible digital distortion introduced by de-clicking - run, don't walk, from Proper -

As far as I'm concerned the same goes for many of those other European labels, like Definitive, JSP (with the exception of their early, J.R.T. Davies remastered sets), etc.

Gotta disagree. Proper is by far the worst of these labels sonically. I don't endorse the thievery of any of them, but a number of the Definitive releases demonstrate that somebody with pretty good ears is behind their efforts. JSP has become a bit more hit and miss, but they are usually no WORSE than the competition on given titles......whereas Proper seems to find new ways to screw up the sonic qualities of all that they touch.

OK, I agree Proper is the worst sounding of 'em all, but I don't like the others either. They often sound bright and loud. By the way, if Definitive and the others do indeed "borrow" their masterings and only maximize sound levels and tamper with EQ - and I've heard many times that they do - there would hardly be any "efforts" on their part.

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I just came across the Proper catalogue and am interested in them. This is the first I've ever seen of them being reported as having really bad sound.

Something like, say, the Cliff Brown set looks good because I don't want all the stuff on the Emarcy 10 CD box (that "jam" session with Maynard Ferguson is painful, and I don't need those 400 alternate takes and sessions with strings and singers).

As for the legal stuff, I see these in mainstream and independant record shops all the time. Hard to believe they're so flagrantly flauting the law.

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You're making a mistake with regard to the Brownie box! The strings date is marvellous, those just so singers are some of the best (the Helen Merrill album is beautiful! A classic!), and most of the jams are ok, too... and with a band such as the Brown/Roach quintet, having some alternates isn't a bad thing, even less so since Brownie left for another place so early... I would never hand in my Brownie material (3 Vogue discs, the BN 4CD set, this 10CD set, some live LPs and bootleg CDRs) for a shabby Properbox!

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I can't speak for all the Proper boxes as I only have (and heard) a few of them, but those that I've heard have sounded pretty decent. I'm also not sure if you can accuse them - in regards to their Eldridge set - of stealing from the Mosaic since I believe their box predated the Mosaic (though i could be wrong). They may have lifted from other Verve and/or Japanese releases however. I'm glad to see at least some admitting that Proper is a perfectly legal company - in Europe at least - though calling them "unethical" seems rather debatable. If they are indeed "stealing" other company's masterings then, yes, I agree, but I'm not sure if that's been proven (though i wouldn't be surprised if it were true). As for the sound quality, it might suck - but that in itself isn't "unethical" either. Plenty of "legit" releases suck as well.

Still, I can't imagine there being much of a conflict between buying the Mosaic or the Proper version of the Eldridge set. The Mosaic box is for serious jazz fans and completists/collectors who only want the best; the Proper box, in contrast, is a cheaper compilation.

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I'm a bit puzzled here as to the original post

The overlap is only one disc.. its not as though the Proper box is an exact copy of the Mosaic.If it were I would agree with the negative comments directed towards Proper.

Proper give you an historical 3 disc sampling of Roy up to the early Verve days... Mosaic gives you all of Roy's verve dates.. all this music is worth hearing if you like Eldridge.

I doubt the Verve dates will be completely available elsewhere... but there are plenty of other CDs.. where the ealy music can be found... The Proper Box would not be my choice for early Roy.. as I prefer to have a more comprehensive coverage of this period in his career..

And as someone up there said... you got the Proper free.....

Edited by P.D.

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