Woody Shaw's train accident.

[JSngry]

Reading Micheal Cuscuna's notes to the Shaw Mosaic says it all, I think. Woody Shaw was a brilliant man and an often troubled man, sometimes by his own doing, sometimes not. Cuscuna got to see all of it more than a few times, and he still feels the love for Woody in spite of the bad times.

I can (and have, and probably will again) put up with some really obnoxious and/or troubled people in the name of getting to be a part of some good, at times possibly even great, music. "Nice people" are cool and all that, but when it comes time to play, give me anybody who can do it, I don't care how big of an asshole they might have been five minutes before downbeat. Now's the time, not five minutes ago.

And oh, did I hear somebody say "Ellington Orchestra"? If "hurt feelings" cwere worth destroying a musical relationship, that shit would have been long gone before it really was.

[oneofanotherkind]

Just throwing this in to break-up the consecutive posts with multiple quotes ... heh heh

Seriously though ... how many of us can truly say that we've never been total assholes to complete strangers ? Might be tough to admit, especially if you've undergone serious personal change since long ago ... But if any of us bite our lip and think back a bit ... like I'm doing right now. Wow. Unreal some of the stuff I said to people I didn't even know. I think it had a fair bit to do with living in abject poverty and having little in common with the milieu that had money and used it to their advantage, but still ... I brought some ugly Karma into this world, because the rage was overflowing inside.

Not to say that crushing a fan is cool. I've had it happen to me and it was not pleasant. But I can kind of see where the artist might be coming from. They might be explaining in the most direct manner that whatever utopian person the fan mistook them for based on their music in fact doesn't exist and the actual reality they do live in is a brutal and ugly one. I think in a certain longer-term sense this approach might actually have more of a real positive impact on the receiver than a (necessarily) canned friendliness would.

Plus , I think we've reached the tipping point where only a minority of us were around in the bad ol' days of the music. I know that I missed that era, at least as an adult who could see it for what it was. From what I've read and heard it was a different world than today's upscale respectable jazz scene. Cats were usin', dealin', hustlin', getting beat-up, shot, murdered even. It was a dark scary world - especially if you were black. Perhaps difficult to relate to how that world framed someone who lived it night after night. I mean the stuff I've heard about Woody isn't even in the same universe of bad Karma as the stuff I personally heard Hub say to people, on and off the bandstand.

[JSngry]

So remember boys and girls, not all great musicians are nice (or even untroubled!) people 100% of the time!

Why?

Because we like you....

J S N....G R Y.......M.O. = "U.S.E."*

* Unusual Situations Explored

You ever heard the Franklin Ajaye bit about Mickey Mouse? I won't give away the punchline here, but a little 2ng hand sleuthing might yield this:

in which case, carpe diem & laugh your ass off at what happens when Mickey goes to get it on with Minnie.

[Free For All]

So remember boys and girls, not all great musicians are nice (or even untroubled!) people 100% of the time!

Why?

Because we like you....

J S N....G R Y.......M.O. = "U.S.E."*

* Unusual Situations Explored

You ever heard the Franklin Ajaye bit about Mickey Mouse? I won't give away the punchline here, but a little 2ng hand sleuthing might yield this:

in which case, carpe diem & laugh your ass off at what happens when Mickey goes to get it on with Minnie.

I deleted my post because your Woody Shaw post seemed all serious and shit and I felt like mine was superfluous and unnecessary. But thank you anyway for the acknowledgement.

[JSngry]

Hey man, Woody's dead, god bless/rest his soul. We're here now.

Party on, ok? While we can.

[Free For All]

Works for me.

[fasstrack]

People like that---egomaniacs---are a big reason jazz lost its audience. Maybe I'm screwed up, but it's hard for me to like someone's music if I know them to be a quantifiable asshole. I mean, we're only human, and at least in my case I will look for excuses to dislike the music if treated jive.

Sorry, but I don´t agree to that. In my opinion, jazz lost audience because the true personalities left us. Look, when I used to go out and see all those great musicians play, we all knew something about their stage behaviour. Some of them, well they had a reputation of being arrogant, like Miles (who anyway didn´t have to smile to the audience) or Freddie Hubbard (I remember his remark to the audience during a concert in Austria, after bursting out some of his trade mark high notes: "jive assed muthaf....."), others maybe were just shy people like Monk or Bud (they were not supposed to make speeches to the audience, even if Bud ....during a rare mood of humour once ...after a stunning set imitated Pee Wee Marquet´s voice saying in that high pitched voice " Now ladies and gentleman, how about a great big hand for the Amazing Bud Powell" ), Or Mingus, oh boy......! Others had that entertainer-qualities like Diz, Blakey or Johnny Griffin.

Look, those where people they used to write books about and still do. When going out and hearing somebody of that caliber for the first time, we had done our lessons, let´s say we knew something about the artist and his live, his attitudes and we loved them for the way they behaved, for being themselves, and they gave it all to the audience thru the music.

Now could you imagine go out to a show and expect the same thing (living legends) if it´s about all them Diana Kralls, Jamie Cullums etc.?

By the way: The Woody Shaw I used to see was a very kind and good educated person with a beautiful deep speaking voice, all I can say is that he was not so kind to himself......

I hope you're not one of these people who think entertaining people is a drag. Probably not, I'm sure. IMO Entertainment along with quality music and cutting down the boring self-absorption among players is the only hope we have (plus going into the schools). I happen to think Wynton Marsalis is a a great man for all he's doing. He could've said, 'well I got the money and the glory. Fuck it'. Instead he prostelytizes for jazz and has great programs for kids.

I agree that the personalities have left us. It's more cookie-cutter now. But I really appreciate people like Bill Charlap, who was tremendous even at 19, being a class act and lovingly presenting the American Song Book. A lot of people snicker and call guys like Bill or Wynton conservative---but you must realize how little people know about their own culture here. If everyone knew about Duke, etc., I would say, OK, Wynton (and Stanley) you're not necessary, give it a rest. But it is, sad to say, necessary, and I am personally very grateful to have these guys talking about these people and playing their music.

Musicians have a responsibility, I believe, to get over themselves and realize they wouold have no sustenance without an audience. Does that mean 'play down' and cater? Hell no. Does it mean try to reach people a bit and realize it's not only about us? Hell yes. We're in this thing together and jazz---actually live music period----is in great peril if we don't start reaching out and changing atgtitudes.

Edited March 31, 2009 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

Besides, I met Woody one time. 1978 or so, Oklahoma City, of all places. He was really nice to me, both him & Carter Jefferson. But then they decided to look for somebody who was from the area and knew where things were, if you get my drift. Conversation over, immediately. No big deal, it wasn't like I couldn't relate, ya' know? And ditto if he would have gotten evil. This shit happens. And I'd be a liar if I said it has nothing to do with the music, at least socially, as far as who hangs with who and where all that leads. Sometimes anyway. But c'est la fucking vie about that. It is what it is and you figure out what works for you like that, make your peace with it, and go on ahead accordingly. They're both dead now, and I'm not, so score one for me. Then again, they were, and will forevermore be, Woody Shaw & Carter Jefferson. So score one for them. I'd have done some things differently, they probalby would have too, but in the end, we are who wwe are, we do what we do, and that's that.

Now about the Mickey joke, it's preceded by a long bit about Ajaye and his buddy Trey dropping mushrooms and going to Disneyland. 'Nuff said.

Edited March 31, 2009 by JSngry

[fasstrack]

You ever heard the Franklin Ajaye bit about Mickey Mouse? I won't give away the punchline here, but a little 2ng hand sleuthing might yield this:

He's a funny MF. I remember his bit about the 'band' on The People's Court'

'Damn, man, like I'm glad you got me the gig and stuff, but like don't we ever get to do snything else but:

Da dap (long pause)

Da dap............................

[fasstrack]

Besides, I met Woody one time. 1978 or so, Oklahoma City, of all places. He was really nice to me, both him & Carter Jefferson.

I met Carter, too----by the cube by St. Mark's place, both of us listening to Vincent Herring as a kid. That was where he played and made a name. Carter sat in, I think. Real nice cat. Sad that he died so far from home. In Poland, I think.

\

I really did like Woody's band. I heard them in the earliest 80s, the first time I heard Mulgrew Miller. He played 'Bye Bye Blackbird' by playing the melody on the last A up a b5, so it sounded Lydian. Carter was probably in that band. I remember Steve Turre being there for sure.

[JSngry]

And I swear that whoever did that PC music lifted that lick of a Roy Wood/Wizzard record, exactly. Except Roy Wood just used it for a few seconds and this other motherfucker probably sen his kids to college and bought a bigass boat with it!

And you wonder why cats get evil sometimes?

[JSngry]

Besides, I met Woody one time. 1978 or so, Oklahoma City, of all places. He was really nice to me, both him & Carter Jefferson.

I met Carter, too----by the cube by St. Mark's place, both of us listening to Vincent Herring as a kid. That was where he played and made a name. Carter sat in, I think. Real nice cat. Sad that he died so far from home. In Poland, I think.

\

I really did like Woody's band. I heard them in the earliest 80s, the first time I heard Mulgrew Miller. He played 'Bye Bye Blackbird' by playing the melody on the last A up a b5, so it sounded Lydian. Carter was probably in that band. I remember Steve Turre being there for sure.

I saw Woody twice, once w/Carter & once with Turre. Not sure if they ever toured w/Woody at the same time or not. That would have been interesting to hear if they had, that book scored for three horns live.

[fasstrack]

And I swear that whoever did that PC music lifted that lick of a Roy Wood/Wizzard record, exactly. Except Roy Wood just used it for a few seconds and this other motherfucker probably sen his kids to college and bought a bigass boat with it!

And you wonder why cats get evil sometimes?

I liked Ajaye in Car Wash too. He was a jilted boyfriend trying to get his woman back. With the white Disco bellbottoms and an Afro the size of a small nation..

[JSngry]

Ajaye was also one of the orriginal writers on In Living Color. But he left after the first (or second?) season, didn't like all the "buffoonery", wanted there to be room for some more subtle, cerebral humor as well. Oh well.

But yeah, Franklin Ajaye is an undersung hero of American humor. Those records he made for Little David aren't revolutionary or epochal like, say, Richard Pryor's WB records of the same time, but they do presnt a very unique, subtly funny comic perspective.

So, whatever happened to Franklin Ajaye?

And how's that for thread-drift?

[fasstrack]

Besides, I met Woody one time. 1978 or so, Oklahoma City, of all places. He was really nice to me, both him & Carter Jefferson.

I met Carter, too----by the cube by St. Mark's place, both of us listening to Vincent Herring as a kid. That was where he played and made a name. Carter sat in, I think. Real nice cat. Sad that he died so far from home. In Poland, I think.

\

I really did like Woody's band. I heard them in the earliest 80s, the first time I heard Mulgrew Miller. He played 'Bye Bye Blackbird' by playing the melody on the last A up a b5, so it sounded Lydian. Carter was probably in that band. I remember Steve Turre being there for sure.

I saw Woody twice, once w/Carter & once with Turre. Not sure if they ever toured w/Woody at the same time or not. That would have been interesting to hear if they had, that book scored for three horns live.

Speaking of three horn scoring, I heard the master, Benny Golson, around 6 weeks ago. I had to hear what was on his mind and it was the most beautiful writing, on a variety of themes and 'topics', just delicate and thrill to hear with those great voicings of his. The solos almost didn't matter---or actually, no, he gave them something to play about. Benny sounds great playing, too.

[fasstrack]

Ajaye was also one of the orriginal writers on In Living Color. But he left after the first (or second?) season, didn't like all the "buffoonery", wanted there to be room for some more subtle, cerebral humor as well. Oh well.

But yeah, Franklin Ajaye is an undersung hero of American humor. Those records he made for Little David aren't revolutionary or epochal like, say, Richard Pryor's WB records of the same time, but they do presnt a very unique, subtly funny comic perspective.

So, whatever happened to Franklin Ajaye?

And how's that for thread-drift?

Don't get me started on Richard Pryor. Please. I'll be up all night and the friendly chaps with the white coats will be summoned.

'We are gathered heeeyah'.....................

[Niko]

Besides, I met Woody one time. 1978 or so, Oklahoma City, of all places. He was really nice to me, both him & Carter Jefferson.

I met Carter, too----by the cube by St. Mark's place, both of us listening to Vincent Herring as a kid. That was where he played and made a name. Carter sat in, I think. Real nice cat. Sad that he died so far from home. In Poland, I think.

\

I really did like Woody's band. I heard them in the earliest 80s, the first time I heard Mulgrew Miller. He played 'Bye Bye Blackbird' by playing the melody on the last A up a b5, so it sounded Lydian. Carter was probably in that band. I remember Steve Turre being there for sure.

I saw Woody twice, once w/Carter & once with Turre. Not sure if they ever toured w/Woody at the same time or not. That would have been interesting to hear if they had, that book scored for three horns live.

in some liner notes it said, the three were driving to a gig (and iirc it said they played three horn gigs from time to time if the money allowed it) then jefferson and shaw got into some argument and jefferson just walked away... when he was gone shaw offered the steady gig to turre

[Niko]

finally figured out why i liked the story of someone in the final stages of selfdestruction ending up in the company of a man named großbatzhuber so much - it could have been lifted from one of my favorite joseph roth novels...

concerning genius, agree to the other thing gheorghe said above, my view is something like after a bunch of highest degree geniuses, especially bird, laid the foundations for all sorts of challenging directions and extensions in the forties, jazz attracted hundreds of highly talented people including dozens of medium degree geniuses (the name that's stuck in my head here is yusef lateef)... the people involved in jazz nowadays are just a somewhat less brilliant fraction of the population (since there is also less to do in jazz for geniuses than in the 50s and 60s when, so to say, many challenging questions were open...)

from my maths experience i'd say the difference between people's intellects are much much greater than is generally acknowledged; if i work hard for a week, i know very well, that while many people would need months to do the same or couldn't do it at all, others with less prior experience would come to my conclusions in 10 minutes... and there are huge differences between these others... [though i was really surprised to see that when teaching first year students i actually can give some guidance to people who are much smarter than me but lack experience]

i tend to think of anyone who is much smarter than some people who are much smarter than me as a genius, but in principle i know that this is a deliberate decision based on my own skills... don't believe you can associate genius with "hard skills" such as "photographic memory" or "perfect pitch", these hard skills are mostly spread much more widely than genius, it's more about seeing stuff more clearly... but who knows

one huge difference between the arts and science is of course that in science being highly respected among the other scientists is sufficient for success (not how it's supposed to be but how it is in fact) while in the arts the audience has much more to say

[oneofanotherkind]

in some liner notes it said, the three were driving to a gig (and iirc it said they played three horn gigs from time to time if the money allowed it) then jefferson and shaw got into some argument and jefferson just walked away... when he was gone shaw offered the steady gig to turre

From this interview with Turre :

"There's a funny story about how I started working with Woody. Woody had a concert as part of a double bill on Long Island: the Dexter Gordon Quartet and Woody Shaw. It paid a little more than a regular gig, and so Woody said, "Come on. Let's make it a sextet." I picked up Woody and Carter Jefferson in my car. When we got to Queens, Woody and Carter got into a big argument. We stopped at a traffic light, and Carter said, "Well, if that's the way you feel, that's it!" He got out of the car, slammed the door and took his horn with him. The light changed, people were honking, and I had to move on. So Woody said, "Steve, if you play your ass off tonight, you got the gig." [Laughs] You know, I gave it everything I got. I was playing the tenor sax part and not the third trombone part. I was struggling by transposing the tenor sax part. I had heard the group play before, and so I knew the tunes. Woody said, "I'll give you a little while to get it together." I went into the woodshed and started to really, really work hard on the long-tone concepts that J.J. had told me about.

During those formative couple of months when Woody was giving me a chance, I practiced all I could. When someone like J.J. or Curtis told me something, I didn't question what they said. I just did it, and I got results. You have to be patient. Growth comes in little increments. It's not as if you can take a short cut to get it all together.

I went on to work with Woody for four years. What an amazing experience! It was during that time that I found my own voice. Woody encouraged me. We were friends, and he also was a mentor. He taught me so many different ways to deal with intervals and harmonic concepts. It was really an exciting time. Sometimes we did sextets with Dexter Gordon or Jackie McLean. Mulgrew was playing piano. Oh, man! Mulgrew's incredible."

Edited March 31, 2009 by oneofanotherkind

[king ubu]

Sorry about the little controversy I started over Tom Harrell - seems I misunderstood the use of "demons". I wasn't aware that only applies to drug (ab)use. I guess these misunderstandings happen all of the time but usually we just don't notice, but (I've made this point already and got some flac for it too, so don't hold back ) English remains a foreign language to many of us, even though it's the current lingua franca (I'm tempted to insert a "still", but of course I have no idea if Mandarin or Hindi will be next...).

Anyway, I have the utmost respect for Harrell and have mentioned before how stunning I find his tone and musical conception.

And for the other off-topic thing about genius, I tend to agree with niko that hard skills aren't a good measurement criteria (if there is one at all...)

Now on topic again: I didn't know about that falling out between Shaw and Jefferson and Turre being the laughing winner of the situation - but the quintet with the t/tb frontline with Turre may have been Woody's most special band, I think! A line-up that's rarely seen.... J.J. made some sessions with Nat Adderley that are pretty cool, they're on the J.J. Columbia Mosaic, and of course there are the Fuller/Farmer and Bennie Green/Farmer albums, but still, it's not a very common line-up!

[Aggie87]

Sorry about the little controversy I started over Tom Harrell - seems I misunderstood the use of "demons". I wasn't aware that only applies to drug (ab)use. I guess these misunderstandings happen all of the time but usually we just don't notice, but (I've made this point already and got some flac for it too, so don't hold back ) English remains a foreign language to many of us, even though it's the current lingua franca (I'm tempted to insert a "still", but of course I have no idea if Mandarin or Hindi will be next...).

I think alot of our native English speaking board members could be a little more sensitive to this point, as well as being appreciative that so many people from so many different countries even make the attempt to communicate in English on this board in the first place.

There's no way on earth I could communicate on any German, French, Swedish, Hebrew, Italian, Dutch, Spanish, Japanese, or Portuguese jazz (or other) websites, as effectively as people from all around the world do here in English.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Aggie87

[Free For All]

so many people from so many different countries even make the attempt to communicate in English on this board in the first place.

As well as chewy, of course.

[7/4]

I saw Harrell at a Joe Lovano night retrospective about 20 years ago and he was pretty shaky.

Did wonders for his embrochure.

The shaky stuf could be a side effect of medication. Some of the drugs used to treat schizophrenia cause various tics, shakes, etc.

Yes, I knew this even then.

Ah! Here's the ticket stub - Oct 6, 1991, Merkin Hall, NYC. I wonder if I still have the program. I think I went because Abercrombie was on the bill.

[fasstrack]

I just listened for a long while on youtube. He was really brilliant. The things he inferred harmonically in his solos, the time he must have taken to research and dig deeper to get what he got, his compositions, his asymmetrical rhythmic configurations, his beautiful sound on both trumpet and flugel, that vibrato (that always reminded me of earlier period players), the mood he created on ballads, his fire on up tunes......He was something. One of the best videos up there was only less than 2 minutes of a solo on Bye Bye Blackbird. He kept referring to Miles' famous solo throughout a totally different trip he was on harmonically and in terms of note density. He really came from somewhere and took it somewhere.

Edited April 6, 2009 by fasstrack