Woody Shaw's train accident.

[sidewinder]

There's also a pretty nice video recorded in Germany from Shaw's latter years recorded for TV in Koln I think (Subway) which features him with Johnny Griffin. I have the feeling they play 'Star Eyes' on that one too.

Edited March 6, 2009 by sidewinder

[clifford_thornton]

Lasha and Shaw (LaShaw?) played a lot together in that time. Prince had hoped to issue some of the material but sadly that didn't come to pass.

[ValerieB]

I don't believe that Woody and Maxine were "married" in the legal sense. I could be, and often am, wrong.

Here's a photo of mine of the Maxine and Woody from 1978 or so:

I'm in contact with her from time to time these days. She's a fine and intelligent lady.

i second that assessment, Marcello!! i just saw her last month and she's working on her dissertation. amazing woman! and continues to be the biggest supporter of jazz.

[marcello]

I don't believe that Woody and Maxine were "married" in the legal sense. I could be, and often am, wrong.

Here's a photo of mine of the Maxine and Woody from 1978 or so:

I'm in contact with her from time to time these days. She's a fine and intelligent lady.

i second that assessment, Marcello!! i just saw her last month and she's working on her dissertation. amazing woman! and continues to be the biggest supporter of jazz.

I'm sorry I missed her at Dizzy's when she stopped by with Kareem to see Joe Locke with the Trio da Paz in August.

[ValerieB]

I don't believe that Woody and Maxine were "married" in the legal sense. I could be, and often am, wrong.

Here's a photo of mine of the Maxine and Woody from 1978 or so:

I'm in contact with her from time to time these days. She's a fine and intelligent lady.

i second that assessment, Marcello!! i just saw her last month and she's working on her dissertation. amazing woman! and continues to be the biggest supporter of jazz.

I'm sorry I missed her at Dizzy's when she stopped by with Kareem to see Joe Locke with the Trio da Paz in August.

yes, they are two of the greatest jazz fans!!

[Niko]

Lasha and Shaw (LaShaw?) played a lot together in that time. Prince had hoped to issue some of the material but sadly that didn't come to pass.

out of curiosity - where did they work together? was Lasha residing in Europe, did they travel together... ?

[king ubu]

I'd be interested in learning more about Lasha/Shaw, too!

Just played the 1963 Dolphy sessions with them this weekend...

That Griffin/Shaw gig from Cologne has the following setlist:

OW!

Just A Ballad For Woody

A Night In Tunisia

To Kill A Brick

All The Things You Are

Blue Monk

What Is This Thing Called Love?

With Just a Ballad and To Kill a Brick it's a wee bit more than just standards... but of course with Griffin and a rhythm section of John Hicks/Reggie Johnson/Alvin Queen it's more than ok!

As for Gordon & Shaw, the latest boot I know if is from 1982 or so...

[clifford_thornton]

Lasha and Shaw (LaShaw?) played a lot together in that time. Prince had hoped to issue some of the material but sadly that didn't come to pass.

out of curiosity - where did they work together? was Lasha residing in Europe, did they travel together... ?

I'll look it up - I got the impression that it was a "band" and that they had rekindled their friendship in Europe. Remember that some of Woody's earliest recordings, with Dolphy, also featured Prince Lasha and Sonny Simmons.

[oneofanotherkind]

Not that it matters , but I don't think Shaw's death was a direct result of the train accident. I read somewhere long long ago that Woody was even playing trumpet one-handed for little while. Of course , by then he was so sick that the end was near irrelevant of the amputation. Still , a tribute to his spirit.

[fasstrack]

Here's an extract from the James Gavin bio of Chet Baker.......:

With all due respect, I wish one wouldn't cite that bullshit book. It was a disgrace and the 'facts' are, in fact, suspect. Gavin did the literary equivilent of that other bullshitter, Bruce Weber: since any knowledgeable discussion of music or musicians is way over their heads---beyond their respective ken, they 'image pimped'. These 'works' are an insult to the memory of Chet, the jazz lover, the serious music lover, and---while I'm at it---my intelligence .

This jackass, James Gavin, went on NPR when his rag came out and proved himself a moron in his insightless discussions of Chet Baker, comparing him unfavorably to, for example, Miles Davis----by saying Miles had a greater technique. Totally missed the point of both players, and then he arrogantly declaimed he 'nailed' Chet's death. Unless you were in the room, screw you Gavin. You didn't 'nail' shit other than how to embarrass oneself with clueless 'journalism'. Go to the Dutch bio of Chet (I forget the author's name). It's long on musical insight and respect----without glossing over the unpleasant facts.

The Weber movie was homoerotic horseshit and it was embarrassing to see Chet sell himself so cheap in his role in it. Pitiful to see a great artist in that shape, and succumbing to whatever he succumbed to by allowing himself to be used by an ass that was pimping an 'outlaw' image or some such bullshit. IMO, Chet had a worse end than Woody in a way.

I implore the reader and my Web friends here, please pass on this claptrap.

BTW, I have at least a little personal insight into Woody, b/c I met and played with him at the nexus right before his unfortunate fall from grace. (ca: 1985). I also knew one of the guys that put him up (perhaps put up with him would be more like it) in Holland. I remain a fan of his music. I believe he was one of the last trumpet innovators and a harmonically very advanced and original musician. But what a mess.* I had the misfortune of getting in his line of fire when he was evidently looking for someone to verbally abuse---and verbally abuse he did. A total asshole, to be frank---at least with me that night. But, sadly, there are other citations, like one Branford Marsalis recounted on his old website. I did later learn the kind of changes he was going through and felt bad for him. But, I'm sorry to say, I've met, played with, dealt with all kinds of musicians and no one ever acted like he did, using a young cat to wipe one's capacious ego on.

It's really a drag Woody went out the way he did----a tragedy when a brilliant mind and talent is taken so soon, as we need people---rare people like that----more than ever now. But it's even more of a drag when they act in a lousy way to themselves and others. Let's not sugar-coat Woody or Chet. They were junkies and wasted much of their lives and talents---and were not very nice to others, like most selfish and childish dope fiends. Romanticize them and others at your own peril..... I learned from my encounter with Woody---the hard way---a young musician trying to 'hang out' may well be playing with fire, and fire burns. Ever since that regrettable incident I've just concentrated on the music, and always will.

*[i wish to make it clear that I only played with Woody Shaw in a one-off jam session context (at Barry Harris' Jazz Cultural Theater, if anyone's interested) and it's not like the cat hired me or anything (likewise I never met Chet Baker, but his playing just has so much soul it makes me quiver sometimes----and he sounded phenomenal to the end to me). ]

Edited March 23, 2009 by fasstrack

[Gheorghe]

Here's an extract from the James Gavin bio of Chet Baker.......:

With all due respect, I wish one wouldn't cite that bullshit book. It was a disgrace and the 'facts' are, in fact, suspect. Gavin did the literary equivilent of that other bullshitter, Bruce Weber: since any knowledgeable discussion of music or musicians is way over their heads---beyond their respective ken, they 'image pimped'. These 'works' are an insult to the memory of Chet, the jazz lover, the serious music lover, and---while I'm at it---my intelligence .

This jackass, James Gavin, went on NPR when his rag came out and proved himself a moron in his insightless discussions of Chet Baker, comparing him unfavorably to, for example, Miles Davis----by saying Miles had a greater technique. Totally missed the point of both players, and then he arrogantly declaimed he 'nailed' Chet's death. Unless you were in the room, screw you Gavin. You didn't 'nail' shit other than how to embarrass oneself with clueless 'journalism'. Go to the Dutch bio of Chet (I forget the author's name). It's long on musical insight and respect----without glossing over the unpleasant facts.

The Weber movie was homoerotic horseshit and it was embarrassing to see Chet sell himself so cheap in his role in it. Pitiful to see a great artist in that shape, and succumbing to whatever he succumbed to by allowing himself to be used by an ass that was pimping an 'outlaw' image or some such bullshit. IMO, Chet had a worse end than Woody in a way.

I implore the reader and my Web friends here, please pass on this claptrap.

BTW, I have at least a little personal insight into Woody, b/c I met and played with him at the nexus right before his unfortunate fall from grace. (ca: 1985). I also knew one of the guys that put him up (perhaps put up with him would be more like it) in Holland. I remain a fan of his music. I believe he was one of the last trumpet innovators and a harmonically very advanced and original musician. But what a mess.* I had the misfortune of getting in his line of fire when he was evidently looking for someone to verbally abuse---and verbally abuse he did. A total asshole, to be frank---at least with me that night. But, sadly, there are other citations, like one Branford Marsalis recounted on his old website. I did later learn the kind of changes he was going through and felt bad for him. But, I'm sorry to say, I've met, played with, dealt with all kinds of musicians and no one ever acted like he did, using a young cat to wipe one's capacious ego on.

It's really a drag Woody went out the way he did----a tragedy when a brilliant mind and talent is taken so soon, as we need people---rare people like that----more than ever now. But it's even more of a drag when they act in a lousy way to themselves and others. Let's not sugar-coat Woody or Chet. They were junkies and wasted much of their lives and talents---and were not very nice to others, like most selfish and childish dope fiends. Romanticize them and others at your own peril..... I learned from my encounter with Woody---the hard way---a young musician trying to 'hang out' may well be playing with fire, and fire burns. Ever since that regrettable incident I've just concentrated on the music, and always will.

*[i wish to make it clear that I only played with Woody Shaw in a one-off jam session context (at Barry Harris' Jazz Cuktural Theater, if anyone's interested) and it's not like the cat hired me or anything (likewise I never met Chet Baker, but his playing just has so much soul it makes me quiver sometimes----and he sounded phenomenal to the end to me). ]

Hello fasstrack: thanks for that great insider info!

[JSngry]

I wonder if Woody Shaw was ever on the receiving end of such a cruel, spirit-deflating tongue-lashing?

I bet he was...

[fasstrack]

I wonder if Woody Shaw was ever on the receiving end of such a cruel, spirit-deflating tongue-lashing?

I bet he was...

Probably. But two wrongs......make three wrongs----or something. Trust me, the stories beside my own are not nice ones----and that's all I'm saying. I'll not put the business of others on the street.

Like I said, let's focus on the music. It's the greatest teacher..........

[fasstrack]

BTW: to answer the poor thread-starter's original query: It was the L train. I took that train every day for many a frickin' moon. Origin: Rockaway Parkway, Canarsie, Brooklyn. Terminus: 14th Street, 8th Ave, the Mango, US of A.

Edited March 23, 2009 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

For the longest time I was thinking of Woody Herman. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Woody Herman got run over by the IRS, not a train.

That is a classic.

[JSngry]

I wonder if Woody Shaw was ever on the receiving end of such a cruel, spirit-deflating tongue-lashing?

I bet he was...

Probably. But two wrongs......make three wrongs----or something. Trust me, the stories beside my own are not nice ones----and that's all I'm saying. I'll not put the business of others on the street.

Like I said, let's focus on the music. It's the greatest teacher..........

That's not my point. My point is that he no doubt got hit head-on by some full-force human evils during the course of his life and didn't "withdraw" or anything, he kept on doing it and became the giant that he became, asshole or not. In 500 years, if he is remembered at all, will it be as an asshole or as a badass? Most likely the latter, no?

If all we study is "the music", then we never learn how to deal with mega-force assholes, of which there are many, and among whom have resided some of The Greatest Ever. So let's do study The Evil That Men Do as well as The Great Music They Make, and let it make us stronger, more resilient, and hopefully, less likely to represent the unseemly ourselves.

If you train yourself to habitually avoid assholes who are also great artists (as opposed to simply learning self-defense skills), you'll miss out on more than you save.

In my opinion.

[fasstrack]

I wonder if Woody Shaw was ever on the receiving end of such a cruel, spirit-deflating tongue-lashing?

I bet he was...

Probably. But two wrongs......make three wrongs----or something. Trust me, the stories beside my own are not nice ones----and that's all I'm saying. I'll not put the business of others on the street.

Like I said, let's focus on the music. It's the greatest teacher..........

That's not my point. My point is that he no doubt got hit head-on by some full-force human evils during the course of his life and didn't "withdraw" or anything, he kept on doing it and became the giant that he became, asshole or not. In 500 years, if he is remembered at all, will it be as an asshole or as a badass? Most likely the latter, no?

If all we study is "the music", then we never learn how to deal with mega-force assholes, of which there are many, and among whom have resided some of The Greatest Ever. So let's do study The Evil That Men Do as well as The Great Music They Make, and let it make us stronger, more resilient, and hopefully, less likely to represent the unseemly ourselves.

If you train yourself to habitually avoid assholes who are also great artists (as opposed to simply learning self-defense skills), you'll miss out on more than you save.

In my opinion.

Whatever.....like I said, art has a lot of the answers to life's problems. I believe that. We have to listen louder......and to the right things. Like I said, my one (actually two, and the first one was more positive) less-than-nice brush with Woody has nothing to do with my appreciating his playing. We have to be bigger than that, than to let someone's BS or personality get in the way of what they may have to offer----in this case, a lot.

Example: Just tonight on a bandstand I was invited to sit in at I had to deal with extremely claustrophobic space, an owner much less nice than he needed to be to a guy like me----bringing something good to his joint, and it no friggin' charge, other distractions. I chose to dig a little deeper and listen to the music----the cats on the stand, the music I responded with. It came out OK, good time had. We have to listen louder---and weed out BS----if we are to survive, let alone musically prosper.

Further, I know several really dark people I don't want to be friends with anymore b/c they want to wallow, and deposit the clouds continually looming over their heads over mine. No way. No more. On this topic one told me that b/c Ram Ramirez insulted her she would never again play Lover Man. Gimme a MFin' break. Know what I mean? (not to mention bullshit. I knew and played with Ram from the West End days, he was a great guy, and one of the underrated pianists IMO).

This pursuit is not for the faint of heart. If one isin the music field, especially a sector as thankless and impoverished as jazz, if one is not ready to deal with unhappy, maladjusted people, boy is it gonna be a long (metaphoric) night........

PS: Actually, the above aberrational story notwithstanding, I've been incredibly lucky, I guess. I find musicians to be almost uniformly good, if not great, people. I mean musicians, not poseurs (and there are plenty of those, Lord knows I've come to realize I have a great and rich life. The cats have been the best. That's likely b/c they learned their lessons not only from their peers and betters, but music itself.

[JSngry]

This pursuit is not for the faint of heart. If one isin the music field, especially a sector as thankless and impoverished as jazz, if one is not ready to deal with unhappy, maladjusted people, boy is it gonna be a long (metaphoric) night........

That's all I'm saying.

[AllenLowe]

just for a digression, I agree that Ram Ramirez was a terrific pianist - I saw him many times at the West End -

[7/4]

just for a digression, I agree that Ram Ramirez was a terrific pianist - I saw him many times at the West End -

Did he get hit by a train?

[ValerieB]

BTW, I do wish "hardbopjazz" would change this threads header—call me oversensitive, but it disturbs me whenever I see it.

my sentiments exactly. every time i see it, it provokes a very unpleasant feeling. thanks in advance, hardbopjazz.

[Hardbopjazz]

BTW, I do wish "hardbopjazz" would change this threads header—call me oversensitive, but it disturbs me whenever I see it.

my sentiments exactly. every time i see it, it provokes a very unpleasant feeling. thanks in advance, hardbopjazz.

In respect for a great musician and person lost and those here, I've changed the tread title.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Hardbopjazz

[oneofanotherkind]

I assume that many/most (?) of you have read Mikowski's bio of Jaco ? I know that Jaco's family and Metheny and others discredited Mikowski a bit , but nevertheless Bill & Jaco were friends for many many years , and the book has an amazing amount of small detail , so I tend to give Mikowski credit for understanding and having Jaco's best interests at heart , even after his demise.

Anyway , if we accept the book as more-or-less accurate , then we have a picture of Jaco in his later years who frequently behaved very badly , taking advantage of those who loved and trusted him , asking ( and quite often receiving ) extraordinary amounts of help from friends ( both lady and non-lady ) , colleagues , business associates , etc. on the basis of his image ( past image more accurately ) and not making much of an effort to return the favors.

The standard reason given ( not just by Mikowski but most people ) for Jaco's behavior is a mental illness ( bipolar , maybe other syndromes ) was evolving & gradually gripping hold. And no doubt Jaco displayed many traits indicative of mental illness.

My own take is a bit different ( and this is with no first-hand knowledge whatsoever , just my analysis of what's publicly available ) ...

I think what brought Jaco down more than anything else was his towering ego. Egos that big require a constant feeding and Jaco couldn't cope with the downswings that occurred when he made mistakes ( road/party scene , leaving wife & kids , getting involved with heavy alcohol & coke , not playing the political game with the recording industry & club owners , misunderstanding his role in other people's enterprises ( Zawinul ) , taking advantage of fans' implicit trust in him as a professional entertainer , etc. ).

In other words, Jaco never learned to adjust his ego-needs to the reality of where he stood vis-a-vis the other elements in the game ( i.e. family, wives/girlfriends, friends, colleagues, associates , fans ) once he was no longer undisputed reigning heavyweight champ of the world.

I know much less about Woody's dealings with other musicians , friends , family , etc. ... but I've read some bad stuff ( although I suspect the motives of some of the sources ).

I might be stating the obvious here , but could it be that true innovators like Woody & Jaco require towering egos to achieve what they did ? Egos that continually tell them they are the best no matter what others may say or think -- neither on the way up , nor on the way down ?

Further, that these types of egos are not subject to compromise and in fact eventually lead to their unravelling specifically because they either partially misunderstand or downplay in exaggerated fashion the delicate underpinnings of a healthy spirit & mind -- namely, bread-and-butter bi-directional human relationships where both sides must always be benefitting from the other ?

Please note that in no way am I trashing Jaco here. Jaco is one of my music heros , and from everything I've read he was an outstanding human being as well , until the demons showed up.

Edited March 29, 2009 by oneofanotherkind

[fasstrack]

Since a brief digression has been introduced, I might as well recall an WABC-TV morning show on which a singer, Pearl Murray, did a Bessie Smith number to Ram's accompaniment. After the show, an effusive co-hostess approached Ram and told him that she was thinking of taking up jazz piano. Ram looked at her, smiled, and—in a most sarcastic way—said, "Really? I was thinking of taking up talking."

My experiences with Ram were always pleasant. Ditto the scant ones I had with Woody.

BTW, I do wish "hardbopjazz" would change this threads header—call me oversensitive, but it disturbs me whenever I see it.

Yeah, he was a real funny character. I remember he came to a rehearsal for George Kelly's Jazz Sultans and he was cutting an apple with a pocket knife and he kept eyeing me with this hilariously mad glint---like he was gonna cut me next! He was the first guy to tell me I was a 'hustler'. I never thought I was, and he meant it as a compliment. All musicians have to take care of business and ourselves, and that's what he undoubtedly meant. He also said I played with 'gusto'. He had a way with words, and was a musician's musician. Probably he was much an original as Prez in his personal style. In his day it was not at all unusual---in complete contrast to the current scene.

I did play one radio broadcast with Ram on KCR in the early 80s, probably for a fundraiser or a yearly day-long event. It's in the tape archives somewhere, along with an airshot with George and several other performances I remember doing with people like Jimmy Lewis and Percy France, who was also a lovely man and wonderful, swinging tenor player. He did much to help me early on, including recommending me to George. I also met Eddie Durham, who just about invented my instrument, there. Very nice guy, too, and obviously my respect runs very deep. So many memories are flooding in now: Oliver Jackson, Walter Bolden, Johnny Carisi-----who I heard Jo Jones with my own ears tell to 'go to Florida and get a suntan if you wanna play with me' before he kicked him off the stand. Those guys were always there. That was the West End. A great place for a young cat to get schooled...........

Anyway, I did much enjoy Ram's crisp and attentive accompaniment style. He was not confident as a pianist and I never understood why. But he was a great guy and character and I'm proud I knew the composer of Lover Man. The West End scene was the last hurrah for swing in NY and I was very lucky.

[king ubu]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.