Woody Shaw's train accident.

[fasstrack]

Ram was among the pianists Alberta Hunter auditioned in my apartment, the short list included Jimmy Rowles, Claude Hopkins. She settled for Gerald C®ook, who ended up stealing all her money and jewels.

Back to Woody Shaw....

Why? People should know about Ram. Maybe a new thread?

[fasstrack]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

Edited March 25, 2009 by fasstrack

[Cliff Englewood]

Yes, but then there are those other people who have massive egos, mental illness/personality disorders and are incredibly rude and treat people like shit, but have absolutely no talent what so ever.

One of them is a fairly frequent poster on this Board. :D

[Chuck Nessa]

Yes, but then there are those other people who have massive egos, mental illness/personality disorders and are incredibly rude and treat people like shit, but have absolutely no talent what so ever.

One of them is a fairly frequent poster on this Board. :D

Time to stop this shit.

[Cliff Englewood]

No way, that was funny, I even used big grins.

[Chuck Nessa]

Not funny.

[Cliff Englewood]

To you maybe, I don't find other peoples posts funny, what's the big deal.

[king ubu]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

I didn't want to start a discussion of "genius" actually... and in fact I don't mind, as it is - as you say - a very difficult thing to define. And certainly Woody is enough for me! More than enough, really, he was a terrific musician and his music continues to enrich my life!

(As for Harrell, the night I caught him live in 2006 was sort of hard to take... but in between he made some stunning music - it was really like him struggling his demons in front of an audience, having trouble navigating through his own (marvellous!) themes, but as soon as they played something simpler (a few standards), he absolutely shined and made his band look like schoolboys in comparison, he really went places! A fascinating musician, to say the very least!)

[oneofanotherkind]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

How to define genius ? This is an interesting question ( to me , at least ).

One can look at it either quantitatively or qualitatively. Quantitative is a much easier analysis , because it's really a search for clues/evidence of potential genius , not for the product of genius itself. In music , this would involve looking for abilities such as :

a) perfect pitch & instant key transposition

b) photographic memory ( live/recorded music , written music )

c) real-time aural transcription onto one's instrument ( faster the better )

d) hearing orchestrally ( more parts the better )

e) pattern recognition and transformation

f) other stuff I don't know about because I'm not much of a musician

From Mikowski :

<<<

At a daytime audition , ( musical director Charlie) Brent whipped out the C.C. Riders book of charts , put it in front of Jaco , and counted off the show. " We went from one tune straight to the next , " he recalls, " and Jaco just burned it to pieces ! I mean fucking burned it -- played every note I had written. "

The next day Brent called the full band in to rehearse with Jaco and ended up enjoying yet another revelation about the young bass player's unique talents. " I put out a chart I had written especially for that rehearsal. Jaco looked at it and then came over and told me he couldn't read. I said ' Then how the fuck did you play all those tunes yesterday ? ' And he says ' I caught the show a couple of weeks ago, ' which just simply fried me. The kid had total fucking recall !"

>>>

I can't find it right now but somehere out there is a recounting of how Woody when playing sideman gigs would come on stage a few minutes early and sit with the charts up close to a candle and quickly perfectly memorize them ( his eyesight being too poor to read them from a music stand during the set ).

And Max's well-publicized quote on Woody : "One of the most amazing things was his uncanny memory. I was just flabbergasted. After one look he knew all of the charts, no matter how complex they were."

Maybe I'm overly impressed by photomems because I have a purely "trained" memory ( having realized rather late in life how important it is to success to try and memorize every action that you take -- which is also a damn good way to avoid doing stupid stuff that'll you'll regret later big-time ! ). On the purely quantitative side , we have "Rain Man" Kim Peek's ability to read 8-10 books per day , two pages simultaneously , one with each eye , both pages in about 8-10 seconds total , with 99% recall. This is surely impressive , but the end-result perhaps is not ( unless you're a huge Jeopardy fan ).

Qualitative is much more difficult and I won't even go there except to say that I consider both Jaco & Woody to be jazz geniuses .

Here's Braxton speaking of Woody as a "nice man" who "helped me inside myself" :

Edited March 30, 2009 by oneofanotherkind

[king ubu]

Thanks for sharing that link - interesting video!

[trpt2345]

Woody has been always one of my favorite trumpet players,I saw him many times and couldn't believe what I was hearing much of the time. I also learned early on to be wary of him: one night at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street I was sitting front and center. After an incredible set, I was thinking of talking to him. A young guy went up to him, gushing about how much he enjoyed the music and how Woody was his favorite trumpet player. Woody just looked at him for a second and said "Is that all the f*&k you got to say to me?" The kid was crushed, and I thought, well, perhaps this evening is not an occasion to initiate conversation with Mr. Shaw.

By coincidence, Stafford James has moved back to Chicago, and I have been hanging with him a bit. (I can see the building he lives in out my window.) I've heard a lot of Woody stories from him, but he said they always got along and he considers Woody to have had the best musical mind of anyone he ever worked with, jazz or classical.

[Hot Ptah]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

I didn't want to start a discussion of "genius" actually... and in fact I don't mind, as it is - as you say - a very difficult thing to define. And certainly Woody is enough for me! More than enough, really, he was a terrific musician and his music continues to enrich my life!

(As for Harrell, the night I caught him live in 2006 was sort of hard to take... but in between he made some stunning music - it was really like him struggling his demons in front of an audience, having trouble navigating through his own (marvellous!) themes, but as soon as they played something simpler (a few standards), he absolutely shined and made his band look like schoolboys in comparison, he really went places! A fascinating musician, to say the very least!)

I don't understand Harrell to have "demons", other than the schizophrenia which he has talked about in several printed interviews. That is a medical illness, not a problem like bad behavior or self-induced drug addiction.

One time when I saw him live, it appeared to me that he was about to have a seizure, and had taken some strong neurologic medication. He was shaking and trembling in the same way that I have observed other epileptic people before a grand mal seizure, and other people with serious neurologic illnesses and disorders.

[7/4]

I saw Harrell at a Joe Lovano night retrospective about 20 years ago and he was pretty shaky.

Did wonders for his embrochure.

.

[PHILLYQ]

I saw Harrell at a Joe Lovano night retrospective about 20 years ago and he was pretty shaky.

Did wonders for his embrochure.

.

The shaky stuf could be a side effect of medication. Some of the drugs used to treat schizophrenia cause various tics, shakes, etc.

[marcello]

Woody has been always one of my favorite trumpet players,I saw him many times and couldn't believe what I was hearing much of the time. I also learned early on to be wary of him: one night at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street I was sitting front and center. After an incredible set, I was thinking of talking to him. A young guy went up to him, gushing about how much he enjoyed the music and how Woody was his favorite trumpet player. Woody just looked at him for a second and said "Is that all the f*&k you got to say to me?" The kid was crushed, and I thought, well, perhaps this evening is not an occasion to initiate conversation with Mr. Shaw.

By coincidence, Stafford James has moved back to Chicago, and I have been hanging with him a bit. (I can see the building he lives in out my window.) I've heard a lot of Woody stories from him, but he said they always got along and he considers Woody to have had the best musical mind of anyone he ever worked with, jazz or classical.

The times that I had the opportunity to talk to Woody Shaw he was a gentleman, thoughtful and considerate.

Here's a photo that I took:

Here's another. That's Maxine Gregg talking to him:

Edited March 31, 2009 by marcello

[fasstrack]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

I didn't want to start a discussion of "genius" actually... and in fact I don't mind, as it is - as you say - a very difficult thing to define. And certainly Woody is enough for me! More than enough, really, he was a terrific musician and his music continues to enrich my life!

(As for Harrell, the night I caught him live in 2006 was sort of hard to take... but in between he made some stunning music - it was really like him struggling his demons in front of an audience, having trouble navigating through his own (marvellous!) themes, but as soon as they played something simpler (a few standards), he absolutely shined and made his band look like schoolboys in comparison, he really went places! A fascinating musician, to say the very least!)

I don't understand Harrell to have "demons", other than the schizophrenia which he has talked about in several printed interviews. That is a medical illness, not a problem like bad behavior or self-induced drug addiction.

One time when I saw him live, it appeared to me that he was about to have a seizure, and had taken some strong neurologic medication. He was shaking and trembling in the same way that I have observed other epileptic people before a grand mal seizure, and other people with serious neurologic illnesses and disorders.

Please. There's nothing wrong with Tom, plenty wrong with people's perception of him. Try playing music that beautiful, then we'll talk. The world better get its shit tigether........

[fasstrack]

Woody has been always one of my favorite trumpet players,I saw him many times and couldn't believe what I was hearing much of the time. I also learned early on to be wary of him: one night at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street I was sitting front and center. After an incredible set, I was thinking of talking to him. A young guy went up to him, gushing about how much he enjoyed the music and how Woody was his favorite trumpet player. Woody just looked at him for a second and said "Is that all the f*&k you got to say to me?" The kid was crushed, and I thought, well, perhaps this evening is not an occasion to initiate conversation with Mr. Shaw.

That sounds about right. That's the way it went down with me. I was 28. Sorry, but he was a prick, and I've heard stories similar to mine. He fucked with Branford Marsalis too, totally dissed him---and Branford was a 'somebody' (Woody called me a 'nobody', to which I looked him in the eye and replied 'everybody's a somebody'). I like his music too, but there's no excuse for his behavior. Plenty of people go through as bad or worse and smell like a rose. People like that---egomaniacs---are a big reason jazz lost its audience. Maybe I'm screwed up, but it's hard for me to like someone's music if I know them to be a quantifiable asshole. I mean, we're only human, and at least in my case I will look for excuses to dislike the music if treated jive. But I do like Woody's playing, especially his grasp of 20th century harmony. It gave his lines and his writing a different kind of edge. I guess I like Ride of the Valkerys too.............

It's funny, someone brought up Tom Harrell. Tom is the sweetest, most positive person you'd ever want to meet. I know this from personal experience. He has a disorder and deals with it and has been blessed with a wonderful mate who makes his life a lot easier. Tom and Angela are great people and Tom is a great artist. He actually was influenced by Woody earlier on, but really his playing changed a lot, especially after he got into flugel more. Just a beautiful player and person---and misunderstood by people that have little on their minds but talk as if they know something.

Wynton Marsalis has a reputation for arrogance and people talk loads of shit about him too. I did myself. But I met Wynton twice and he was totally cool. I just spoke to him about something the other day and he couldn't have been nicer.

I wish I had nicer things to say about Woody. If he would've been nicer I would. But the lesson I learned there was don't fuck with out people. Yiu can't always hang out. Sometimes you have to back off and just listen to the music.

[Hot Ptah]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

I didn't want to start a discussion of "genius" actually... and in fact I don't mind, as it is - as you say - a very difficult thing to define. And certainly Woody is enough for me! More than enough, really, he was a terrific musician and his music continues to enrich my life!

(As for Harrell, the night I caught him live in 2006 was sort of hard to take... but in between he made some stunning music - it was really like him struggling his demons in front of an audience, having trouble navigating through his own (marvellous!) themes, but as soon as they played something simpler (a few standards), he absolutely shined and made his band look like schoolboys in comparison, he really went places! A fascinating musician, to say the very least!)

I don't understand Harrell to have "demons", other than the schizophrenia which he has talked about in several printed interviews. That is a medical illness, not a problem like bad behavior or self-induced drug addiction.

One time when I saw him live, it appeared to me that he was about to have a seizure, and had taken some strong neurologic medication. He was shaking and trembling in the same way that I have observed other epileptic people before a grand mal seizure, and other people with serious neurologic illnesses and disorders.

Please. There's nothing wrong with Tom, plenty wrong with people's perception of him. Try playing music that beautiful, then we'll talk. The world better get its shit tigether........

I think that he is a great musician. I was defending him, as I thought that he was being unfairly lumped with people with drug problems and problems with bad manners or worse. Compared to them, Harrell does not have "demons", he has an illness. My son and the other people in my son's day services facility have similiar illnesses. I have spent a lot of time with people with severe neurologic disorders. Harrell is amazing to me, to have done what he has done, when he has shown some of the physical characteristics of people with very severe disabilities. To be able to create and play as he has--he has my utmost admiration. I think I have some understanding of what he has to overcome to create and play. It's a lot.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Hot Ptah

[Hot Ptah]

Woody has been always one of my favorite trumpet players,I saw him many times and couldn't believe what I was hearing much of the time. I also learned early on to be wary of him: one night at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street I was sitting front and center. After an incredible set, I was thinking of talking to him. A young guy went up to him, gushing about how much he enjoyed the music and how Woody was his favorite trumpet player. Woody just looked at him for a second and said "Is that all the f*&k you got to say to me?" The kid was crushed, and I thought, well, perhaps this evening is not an occasion to initiate conversation with Mr. Shaw.

That sounds about right. That's the way it went down with me. I was 28. Sorry, but he was a prick, and I've heard stories similar to mine. He fucked with Branford Marsalis too, totally dissed him---and Branford was a 'somebody' (Woody called me a 'nobody', to which I looked him in the eye and replied 'everybody's a somebody'). I like his music too, but there's no excuse for his behavior. Plenty of people go through as bad or worse and smell like a rose. People like that---egomaniacs---are a big reason jazz lost its audience. Maybe I'm screwed up, but it's hard for me to like someone's music if I know them to be a quantifiable asshole. I mean, we're only human, and at least in my case I will look for excuses to dislike the music if treated jive. But I do like Woody's playing, especially his grasp of 20th century harmony. It gave his lines and his writing a different kind of edge. I guess I like Ride of the Valkerys too.............

It's funny, someone brought up Tom Harrell. Tom is the sweetest, most positive person you'd ever want to meet. I know this from personal experience. He has a disorder and deals with it and has been blessed with a wonderful mate who makes his life a lot easier. Tom and Angela are great people and Tom is a great artist. He actually was influenced by Woody earlier on, but really his playing changed a lot, especially after he got into flugel more. Just a beautiful player and person---and misunderstood by people that have little on their minds but talk as if they know something.

Wynton Marsalis has a reputation for arrogance and people talk loads of shit about him too. I did myself. But I met Wynton twice and he was totally cool. I just spoke to him about something the other day and he couldn't have been nicer.

I wish I had nicer things to say about Woody. If he would've been nicer I would. But the lesson I learned there was don't fuck with out people. Yiu can't always hang out. Sometimes you have to back off and just listen to the music.

I will only comment that when I was young, I would talk in a gushing way to jazz musicians who have no reported problems. Some of them were gracious and some were very curt. It did not seem to be due to any drug or other problems they had. I can now understand that they viewed me as a pest, basically, and some did not pretend to be cordial. Woody may have just grown tired of it.

[fasstrack]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

I didn't want to start a discussion of "genius" actually... and in fact I don't mind, as it is - as you say - a very difficult thing to define. And certainly Woody is enough for me! More than enough, really, he was a terrific musician and his music continues to enrich my life!

(As for Harrell, the night I caught him live in 2006 was sort of hard to take... but in between he made some stunning music - it was really like him struggling his demons in front of an audience, having trouble navigating through his own (marvellous!) themes, but as soon as they played something simpler (a few standards), he absolutely shined and made his band look like schoolboys in comparison, he really went places! A fascinating musician, to say the very least!)

I don't understand Harrell to have "demons", other than the schizophrenia which he has talked about in several printed interviews. That is a medical illness, not a problem like bad behavior or self-induced drug addiction.

One time when I saw him live, it appeared to me that he was about to have a seizure, and had taken some strong neurologic medication. He was shaking and trembling in the same way that I have observed other epileptic people before a grand mal seizure, and other people with serious neurologic illnesses and disorders.

Please. There's nothing wrong with Tom, plenty wrong with people's perception of him. Try playing music that beautiful, then we'll talk. The world better get its shit tigether........

I think that he is a great musician. I was defending him. He does not have "demons", he has an illness. My son and the other people in my son's day services facility have similiar illnesses. I have spent a lot of time with people with severe neurologic disorders. Harrell is amazing to me, to have done what he has done, when he has shown some of the physical characteristics of people with very severe disabilities. To be able to create and play as he has--he has my utmost admiration. I think I have some understanding of what he has to overcome to create and play. It's a lot.

Sorry to overreact, man. I've been going through some stuff of my own lately. I do think the world, especially America, needs to get its shit together and honor its resources like Tom.

[fasstrack]

Woody has been always one of my favorite trumpet players,I saw him many times and couldn't believe what I was hearing much of the time. I also learned early on to be wary of him: one night at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street I was sitting front and center. After an incredible set, I was thinking of talking to him. A young guy went up to him, gushing about how much he enjoyed the music and how Woody was his favorite trumpet player. Woody just looked at him for a second and said "Is that all the f*&k you got to say to me?" The kid was crushed, and I thought, well, perhaps this evening is not an occasion to initiate conversation with Mr. Shaw.

That sounds about right. That's the way it went down with me. I was 28. Sorry, but he was a prick, and I've heard stories similar to mine. He fucked with Branford Marsalis too, totally dissed him---and Branford was a 'somebody' (Woody called me a 'nobody', to which I looked him in the eye and replied 'everybody's a somebody'). I like his music too, but there's no excuse for his behavior. Plenty of people go through as bad or worse and smell like a rose. People like that---egomaniacs---are a big reason jazz lost its audience. Maybe I'm screwed up, but it's hard for me to like someone's music if I know them to be a quantifiable asshole. I mean, we're only human, and at least in my case I will look for excuses to dislike the music if treated jive. But I do like Woody's playing, especially his grasp of 20th century harmony. It gave his lines and his writing a different kind of edge. I guess I like Ride of the Valkerys too.............

It's funny, someone brought up Tom Harrell. Tom is the sweetest, most positive person you'd ever want to meet. I know this from personal experience. He has a disorder and deals with it and has been blessed with a wonderful mate who makes his life a lot easier. Tom and Angela are great people and Tom is a great artist. He actually was influenced by Woody earlier on, but really his playing changed a lot, especially after he got into flugel more. Just a beautiful player and person---and misunderstood by people that have little on their minds but talk as if they know something.

Wynton Marsalis has a reputation for arrogance and people talk loads of shit about him too. I did myself. But I met Wynton twice and he was totally cool. I just spoke to him about something the other day and he couldn't have been nicer.

I wish I had nicer things to say about Woody. If he would've been nicer I would. But the lesson I learned there was don't fuck with out people. Yiu can't always hang out. Sometimes you have to back off and just listen to the music.

I will only comment that when I was young, I would talk in a gushing way to jazz musicians who have no reported problems. Some of them were gracious and some were very curt. It did not seem to be due to any drug or other problems they had. I can now understand that they viewed me as a pest, basically, and some did not pretend to be cordial. Woody may have just grown tired of it.

I was there and I don't buy it. Sorry.

[Hot Ptah]

Thanks for having changed the title/subtitle - I was among those who were bothered by it as well.

And about that long post on Jaco - was Woody Shaw really one of those huge-ego-persons who considered himself being a genius and all? I mean I don't know that much about Woody the man/person (I love his music though), but from the bits of footage I've seen and from what I've read, he was much more of a tragic character than an a**hole, but what do I know... somehow the impression I have of Shaw, and the impression I have of Jaco's, they don't really fit together much.

Maybe he was a little of each. I only had the one experience, and he was on a downhill trajectory of which we all know how it ended. I love his music, too, BTW, glad we got to play once, and am sorry he was in such bad shape when I ran into him.

Re this 'genius' bit: Don't know if he was a genius. Depends on one's definition, I suppose. The only one I encountered in my life as a professional to date was Jaki Byard. He was really ahead of the curve in his thinking and I saw him in action as a band member for 1 and 1/2 years. Nothing short of brilliant, I am convinced. I guess Tom Harrell probably is one, I met him a few times and never worked with him, but I know what he can do, and he probably does qualify. To hear Phil Woods tell it, there's no question. Joe Cohn has amazing ears and is a thrilling improvisor and can put thirds under a fast complicated melody he's hearing for the first time. He can play back what you just played, the exact voicings. Every musician in the know in NY knows what he can do, myself included. Does this make him a genius? Not sure.

Woody Shaw was a powerfully creative and vital musician. And he was very advanced at a young age. Isn't that enough?

I didn't want to start a discussion of "genius" actually... and in fact I don't mind, as it is - as you say - a very difficult thing to define. And certainly Woody is enough for me! More than enough, really, he was a terrific musician and his music continues to enrich my life!

(As for Harrell, the night I caught him live in 2006 was sort of hard to take... but in between he made some stunning music - it was really like him struggling his demons in front of an audience, having trouble navigating through his own (marvellous!) themes, but as soon as they played something simpler (a few standards), he absolutely shined and made his band look like schoolboys in comparison, he really went places! A fascinating musician, to say the very least!)

I don't understand Harrell to have "demons", other than the schizophrenia which he has talked about in several printed interviews. That is a medical illness, not a problem like bad behavior or self-induced drug addiction.

One time when I saw him live, it appeared to me that he was about to have a seizure, and had taken some strong neurologic medication. He was shaking and trembling in the same way that I have observed other epileptic people before a grand mal seizure, and other people with serious neurologic illnesses and disorders.

Please. There's nothing wrong with Tom, plenty wrong with people's perception of him. Try playing music that beautiful, then we'll talk. The world better get its shit tigether........

I think that he is a great musician. I was defending him. He does not have "demons", he has an illness. My son and the other people in my son's day services facility have similiar illnesses. I have spent a lot of time with people with severe neurologic disorders. Harrell is amazing to me, to have done what he has done, when he has shown some of the physical characteristics of people with very severe disabilities. To be able to create and play as he has--he has my utmost admiration. I think I have some understanding of what he has to overcome to create and play. It's a lot.

Sorry to overreact, man. I've been going through some stuff of my own lately. I do think the world, especially America, needs to get its shit together and honor its resources like Tom.

That's O.K. I agree that Tom Harrell deserves all the honors there are.

[JSngry]

So remember boys and girls, not all great musicians are nice (or even untroubled!) people 100% of the time!

[fasstrack]

So remember boys and girls, not all great musicians are nice (or even untroubled!) people 100% of the time!

Why?

Because we like you....

[Gheorghe]

People like that---egomaniacs---are a big reason jazz lost its audience. Maybe I'm screwed up, but it's hard for me to like someone's music if I know them to be a quantifiable asshole. I mean, we're only human, and at least in my case I will look for excuses to dislike the music if treated jive.

Sorry, but I don´t agree to that. In my opinion, jazz lost audience because the true personalities left us. Look, when I used to go out and see all those great musicians play, we all knew something about their stage behaviour. Some of them, well they had a reputation of being arrogant, like Miles (who anyway didn´t have to smile to the audience) or Freddie Hubbard (I remember his remark to the audience during a concert in Austria, after bursting out some of his trade mark high notes: "jive assed muthaf....."), others maybe were just shy people like Monk or Bud (they were not supposed to make speeches to the audience, even if Bud ....during a rare mood of humour once ...after a stunning set imitated Pee Wee Marquet´s voice saying in that high pitched voice " Now ladies and gentleman, how about a great big hand for the Amazing Bud Powell" ), Or Mingus, oh boy......! Others had that entertainer-qualities like Diz, Blakey or Johnny Griffin.

Look, those where people they used to write books about and still do. When going out and hearing somebody of that caliber for the first time, we had done our lessons, let´s say we knew something about the artist and his live, his attitudes and we loved them for the way they behaved, for being themselves, and they gave it all to the audience thru the music.

Now could you imagine go out to a show and expect the same thing (living legends) if it´s about all them Diana Kralls, Jamie Cullums etc.?

By the way: The Woody Shaw I used to see was a very kind and good educated person with a beautiful deep speaking voice, all I can say is that he was not so kind to himself......