25 jazz records: A selection

[EKE BBB]

With many thanks to Pachi Tapiz, site administrator of Tomajazz, and thanks to the inexhaustible work of Fer Urbina, editor of this project, we have finally finished our selection of 25 of the most representative discs in the first century of jazz.

Here´s the brief English introduction in the main page of this article, which perfectly sums up the goal of our project.

The following article is a list of CDs containing some of the best jazz recorded in the 20th century. Although we are aware that 65 currently available CDs (25 “essentials” plus other 40) are not enough to summarize the history of recorded jazz, we have tried our best to offer a view as balanced and representative as possible of this music’s first eighty years, or at least a taster of what this diverse and ever-changing music has to offer.

I find interesting to point out that this is a compilation mainly recommended for newbies, specially for the first decades of 20th Century: a simple starting point to a jazz collection. A jazz collection as much wide, diverse and open-minded as possible.

25 DISCOS DE JAZZ: UNA GUÍA ESENCIAL

Edited October 6, 2005 by EKE BBB

[EKE BBB]

Please, feel free to bring your comments on the selection.

[mikeweil]

I could argue about the others' choices, but yours? No way - essential stuff!

[EKE BBB]

I could argue about the others' choices,...

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Please, DO!

[EKE BBB]

BTW, I hope that, in the main page of the article, you have clicked on each decade to see a brief introduction of it, a review of the six/seven "essential" recordings, and a brief review of the ten "additional" recordings. This makes 25+40=65 discs.

Otherwise you´d question where on hell is Bud Powell or Dizzy Gillespie or Sonny Rollins...

[Aggie87]

Is it cheating to use compilations as you do? Or was there any discussion about that?

[EKE BBB]

Is it cheating to use compilations as you do?  Or was there any discussion about that?

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Believe me, there was a lot of discussion on this subject for the first decades of the history of jazz.

We balanced from using chronologically sequenced collections (like the Classics), complete collections recorded for a label from a period (like a "Complete XXX-Label 19xx-19xx recordings") or compilations with a maximum covered period of 10 years (Hawkins was in another league for the high average quality of his vast and chronologically extended recorded output).

And we ended up using... all of them.

In each case we analized multiple factors (from sound quality and remastering, to easy availability or representativity of a period of that artist). If there was a body of recordings such as Ellington´s RCA Blanton-Webster band or Satchmo´s Hot 5&7, so absolutely essential all in all, we picked a more than 1 CD collection. If there was a single chronological disc containing such ammount of master works from an artist to be representative enough, we took it (i.e. Lion´s Classics disc). As for compilations such as Hawkins´, Bessie´s, Django´s or Billie´s, we cared so much for the accuracy of the tracks selected.

There´s a lot of work in a project like this... if it´s faced seriously. It´s easy to list 25+40 good jazz recordings (all of us can do it in fifteen minutes). But it´s not so easy if the compilation takes into account a lot of facts (balance between artists, styles and decades, sound quality, package and liner notes, availability).

Just a clue on how we faced it: it took us three or four months of work and discussion and about 700 emails.

Of course you could have chosen different discs. Jazz is diversity.

Best wishes,

Agustín Pérez

[Harold_Z]

The essential 25 are well chosen, Augustin.

Sure, a different group of people might have chosen a small percentage of different discs, but that really doesn't invalidate these.

[GA Russell]

Nice effort!

I don't think I would have included Headhunters. In the jazz rock fusion category, I might have substituted one of the two mentioned in his recent obituary: Steve Marcus - Tomorrow Never Knows or Count's Rock Band.

[marcello]

Thanks for the inclusion of Mingus' Changes One & Changes Two.

[John L]

Good list. 1980 to the present is a time period when probably any two lists would have empty intersection. There were so many things going on in so many completely different directions. So much depends on perception and taste.

[king ubu]

Hey Agustín! Hope all's well!

I had a look at the page last night, and all in all I think it's a fine choice!

Two things crossed my mind:

Basie: why not have the Decca 3CD set (available in Spain cheaply, courtesy of you know who...), if you have the 3CD set for the Duke?

Mingus: I'm not the biggest fan of Changes, and if there's only one appearance of Mingus, I think it should be either "Mingus Ah Um" or "Mingus Presents Mingus".

Another album I'd have loved to see (but I understand it's omission, too): Max Roach's "Freedom Now Suite".

Then one that I think should be on there, no matter what else would have to be skipped: Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Colossus" (or the Village Vanguard recordings)?

Not much going on after 1964... I agree on all the choices of the fifties and early sixties, sure, but there's a gap after that, that "Changes" and "Headhunters" don't really close... I might go for "Thrust", or maybe even more for "Sextant" as the Herbie choice. "Headhunters" may be the big commercial success, but musically, I think "Sextant" is more interesting, and would fill that gap better, representing (some of) the best of ca. 1970 explorations in music.

This all sounds a bit harsh, maybe. It's not intended to - I can imagine how hard it must have been to make these picks!

[king ubu]

Good list.  1980 to the present is a time period when probably any two lists would have empty intersection.  There were so many things going on in so many completely different directions.  So much depends on perception and taste.

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Very true! I'd be in complete loss if I had to pick essentials from those years. They would, though, include some of what here is called "funny rat"-stuff, rather than more mainstreamy-items as the Marsalis and David Murray...

But then, why already choose essentials for those years? Probably only time will tell...

[EKE BBB]

Mingus: I'm not the biggest fan of Changes, and if there's only one appearance of Mingus, I think it should be either "Mingus Ah Um" or "Mingus Presents Mingus".

Another album I'd have loved to see (but I understand it's omission, too): Max Roach's "Freedom Now Suite".

Then one that I think should be on there, no matter what else would have to be skipped: Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Colossus" (or the Village Vanguard recordings)?

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Hey, Flurin!

Have you checked the "Runners-up" list? The selection is 25 "Essentials" plus 40 "Complementaries". All of your choices (in bold letters) are in the second list.

...in the main page of the article, you have clicked on each decade to see a brief introduction of it, a review of the six/seven "essential" recordings, and a brief review of the ten "additional" recordings

.

Well, maybe you know that, but still want to include these three in the top-25.

Edited October 7, 2005 by EKE BBB

[EKE BBB]

Basie: why not have the Decca 3CD set (available in Spain cheaply, courtesy of you know who...), if you have the 3CD set for the Duke?

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We have avoided those kind of labels (Definitive et al). An as for the official Decca/GRP 3 CD set, we tried to include the least more-than-one-cd choices as possible. That´s why you have the complete Hot 5&7, but not the complete Basie on Decca.

See my reply to Aggie87 for other criteria in the selection of the pre-LP-era discs.

[EKE BBB]

This all sounds a bit harsh, maybe. It's not intended to - I can imagine how hard it must have been to make these picks!

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Be sure it took us a lot of work and discussion to compile this list. Much more than writing the introductions to each period, and the reviews to the 65 discs.

And I appreciate your input. I hope your Spanish is being improved with this article...

[EKE BBB]

Very true! I'd be in complete loss if I had to pick essentials from those years. They would, though, include some of what here is called "funny rat"-stuff, rather than more mainstreamy-items as the Marsalis and David Murray...

...

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But you can´t avoid considering the neo-bop/neoclassicism/whatever thing. It´s also an important part of the last 25 years.

Be sure that Jorge LG, who was the person in charge of this period (though all of us has discussed and helped in every decade), is the guy with the most open-minded, wide, profound, clear and personal vission of the last 30 years in jazz that I´ve ever met.

And this is not shameless promotion!

[king ubu]

Nope, didn't click on the decades yet, thanks! I only now see that "Giant Steps" is not part of the 25 (ok for me!)... as for the Lacy choice: that man's discography is huuuuuge... my preferred one would be the quartet's live set from Paris on hat, "Morning Joy".

Similar for Braxton... I'm no expert, but I would tend to pick a disc that includes the quartet with Crispell, Dresser or Lindberg, and Hemingway.

I see your point about Basie - but still it's a bit... asymetric, to have the full hot 5 & 7 sets (Columbia has a best of, no?) and full (well not quite complete) Ellington, while Basie only gets one CD. Maybe Atomic Basie could have been added to make up for that? But then again, there's be much more Duke to chose (whom do I tell that...).

Where's Prez? Only part of the Basie package? Why not the Aladdin sides, or the Keynotes?

[king ubu]

Very true! I'd be in complete loss if I had to pick essentials from those years. They would, though, include some of what here is called "funny rat"-stuff, rather than more mainstreamy-items as the Marsalis and David Murray...

...

←

But you can´t avoid considering the neo-bop/neoclassicism/whatever thing. It´s also an important part of the last 25 years.

Be sure that Jorge LG, who was the person in charge of this period (though all of us has discussed and helped in every decade), is the guy with the most open-minded, wide, profound, clear and personal vission of the last 30 years in jazz that I´ve ever met.

And this is not shameless promotion!

←

Well, I'm ready to believe that, sure!

But my point is: there has been *much* music performed and recorded in those years that is *much* more interesting than *any* of the neo-whatever stuff.

Of course the problem is that jazz has gotten so fragmented in these years. There's the modern mainstream (with guys like Golson and Woods and whoever, many of those were still around by 1980 and some are, still today), there's what grew out of fusion/jazz-rock (covered in your selection by Steve Coleman), there's the neo-cons (Wynton et.al.), there's free jazz of many styles (Brötz and them Germans, the downtown scene - not really covered by including a Masada disc, I think, although Masada certainly deserves inclusion! - and many more local scenes... Chicago, Bay Area, whatever... much of the interesting music not coming from the US...) - it's virtually impossible to do it right for those years and I think you did a good choice for those years, all in all!

I would maybe tend to be as polemic to exclude them neos, and instead include an album or two by mainstream guys who still do (did) what they always did, unlike them young ones trying to do what the old ones always did and thinking they were better at it... but that's just my opinion. And I'd be in trouble to pick one or two essential albums (but then I would not rate any Wynton as essential, either)!

[Fer Urbina]

Hello everyone and thanks for chippin' in.

Very quickly. Although it may go against strict musical considerations, we decided to assign the same amount of records to each period. Also (and this was perhaps too much of a hurdle) no name was to be repeated in the 25 list (hence Miles only once). Within each period we were more flexible (I don't think we have more than 4 CDs from the 70s).

As for whether it is easier to do one period or a different one, I think it's a matter of perspective. Jorge LG, who did the last bit has travelled a lot and been to a zillion concerts, a true mad fan, and had the chance to know the 80s and 90s first-hand (he lived in NY for a while). Compare that to whatever knowledge we might have of the music recorded in the 20s or 30s, which will always be second-hand, and has been filtered by reissues (some music has never been reissued) and *absolute* truths or conventions, which are tempting to use because almost no one will dispute them and the reader will probably feel comfortable with them (e. g., first choice for stride pianist would've been James P Johnson, right? - but EKE BBB chose The Lion, and precisely those recordings, and he has the reasons to back it up).

Columbia's best of the Hot 5s/7s... I seem to remember it doesn't include Weatherbird, the duo with Earl Hines. Call me whatever, but to me it's enough to dismiss it. Also, I would have gladly go for a Satchmo live set from 47 (Town Hall or Symphony Hall, possibly the latter). And I don't think you can be too asymetric with Satchmo (if anything I would've liked to have something from the 30s).

Basie and Duke in the 50s... no room, I'm afraid. They have excellent records, true, but they made their deepest mark in the 30-40s. We also tended to include *styles* at their beginnings, or when they could be considered freshest. For instance, I'd accept it is rather silly to portray the 70s without any Pablo recordings at all, but there you go.

Basie and the 3-CD Decca set. Re: dodgy reissues, is like buying an instrument when you're a beginner: get a good one, albeit more expensive, or chances are you'll be disenchanted (and we don't want that). There's actually the case of the George Russell Workshop. There's an edition easier to get in Spain, but mistitled (no *complete* recordings), and an alternate take that just isn't (discussed in these forums, BTW). As for why get the Basie single CD edition. We went for the simplest, less expensive options, and, personally, I don't really need two takes of "Stop Beating Round The Mulberry Bush" (I do have the Decca/GRP set).

Prez: I know. Painful. I went thru the Aladdins a few times, but... I don't accept his post-1945 dismissal by some, but -personal taste- I do prefer him pre-1945 hands down.

At the end of the day, the matter is that there's almost no literature on jazz in Spanish, and you can't imagine the amount of people that go to Tomajazz and ask "where do I start?"

As long as it's not too bad for starters...

F

PS I *type* very quickly, sorry

[brownie]

Thanks to EKE BBB and Fer Urbina for the comments on the selection.

This must have been a difficult task.

Some brief reservations:

I do not agree with some of the selected releases. I'm fine with JSP but then why not include Catalunyan or Andorran CDs? But that's minor.

Problem is the post-1960 picks.

No Cecil Taylor? Or the AEC (the Bowie is good but not up to some of the best AEC material). Are they less acceptable (or palatable) than Keith Jarrett or Steve Coleman? Not to speak of Marsalis.

I can guess at the reasons these were included but we're dealing with 'some of the best jazz recorded'. Do the selected records from them really qualify? Or did I miss something?

And the near absence of Lester Young (at least he is on Basie and Lady Day selections) and Bud Powell (nowhere in sight) sides is a major flaw!

That said! I can see the difficulty in the pickings from the various eras.

Hey, I'm French and French people always complain

Edited October 7, 2005 by brownie

[cayetano]

No Cecil Taylor?

And the near absence of Lester Young (at least he is on Basie and Lady Day selections) and Bud Powell (nowhere in sight) sides is a major flaw!

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Cecil Taylor "Unit structures" and Bud Powell" Jazz Giant are on the 40 "Complementaries" list.

[Fer Urbina]

Hello Brownie and thanks

Major flaw in the thing is that non-Spanish speakers are missing the fact that there are 25 + 40 CDs (Bud Powell and Cecil Taylor among others). Working on it.

As I said, this may have been too much of a hurdle, but one of the first things we decided was to include an equal number of CDs from each period, and currently available too. And only one name in the main 25 list.

I already explained the Lester Young case (and he's one of my favourites...)

As for the reissues, I've also explained that we didn't quite get to legal or moral issues in our discussions. That said, to the best of my knowledge there is a difference between, say, the Armstrong JSPs and the Andorran reissues. Main one IMHO, from the (selfish) listener's point of view, the JSP is a damned good selection (almost an hour's worth of music not overlapping with the Legacy set), carefully produced etc (and since we're at it, legal according to European law). My only doubt about this matter was on the George Russell RCA Workshop, and I already explained why I went for the French RCA.

And Brownie, ze French may complaine, but dere's nofing like de Espanish booen it cams to booyning

F

Edited October 7, 2005 by Fer Urbina

[king ubu]

Let me complain a bit more, too... I'm ubu roi, so I'm a little bit French (and Polish), too...

First: thanks for chiming in, Fernando! (Are you a nobleman? Glad you're not French, then, otherwise your ancestors may have been beheaded... )

About Taylor: "Nefertiti", the 2CD live recording from Copenhagen should definitely be part of the 25 discs, in my opinion! "Unit Structures" is a fine choice, and probably a very important album - even more so with your criterium to list albums that represent a new style of music at its very early stage.

But just that point (new music) makes me bitch once again about Wynton and David Murray (and, sorry to put them in the same pot here, but also about Keith Jarrett - his trio is magnificient, but there's not much new there...). What's new about the neo-classicists? I'd rather see musicians like Taylor honoured than those that didn't bring anything new.

I agreed above with Agu's statement that one cannot simply ignore the neos, but then, in this case at least, one has to ignore the criterium of choosing albums that represent new styles of music.

Being a bit of a devil's advocate here... not that I strongly disagree with this list!

For me, personally, it's fun to create and discuss such lists, but then actually I don't need them. I can see that they are useful for neophytes, though (I used similar lists, too, when I got into jazz as a teenager and had to decide which discs I should spend my little money on...)

[king ubu]

And on the Andorran issue: of course I have the Decca set, not the Definitive, of the Basie material - and I think the same argument you (Fer Urbina) used with regard to the Satchmo best of could be applied to any Decca Basie 1CD compilation...