Disallowing taping & trading is financial suicide

[RDK]

I don't know if Sco prefers his "A Go Go" stuff over his more "labor of love" gigs (with all the non-commercialism that that implies), but as a musician it certainly must be gratifying to connect with a larger audience no matter what the reason.

[GregN]

How is the model itself flawed?

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And if anybody is naive enough to think that somebody like Scofield is doing what he's doing entirely for some abstract, altrusitic reason(s), I've got an autographed copy of the Bolden cylinder that you can have for a very reasonable price.

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lol

Thanks, I needed that.

[GregN]

John, with all due respect... I think Sco's decision to get into the jamband scene was because his collaboration with MMW on "A Go Go" was the biggest selling album in his career.

Pretty simple, really.

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Jim, ask him next week.

g

[johnagrandy]

John, with all due respect... I think Sco's decision to get into the jamband scene was because his collaboration with MMW on "A Go Go" was the biggest selling album in his career.

Pretty simple, really.

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But how does that imply guaranteed success hooking up with a 70s rhythm grooves master and early 20-something kids from jam-bands, who while well-known in their circles, and who all proved themselves to be great musicians, had only maybe .01 % of the stature of MMW ?

Why not just do another MMW album ? Or start collaborations with rock bands as he later did ?

He had to write all that new music, figure out how to play with those younger guys who were coming from another genre and point-of-view, figure out how to sell it to the jazz clubs and the jam-band scene, had to make his old fans happy while winning over the new, deal with all the potential criticism ... AND ... he had to confront his own relative old age and do the whole thing totally sober for the first time ?

Not only that ... but maybe he wasn't totally into some of those grooves had get to get into for the music to be so hip. It's sounds like a weird thought , but those were sophisticated improvs he was playing on top of grooves that weren't and couldn't be that cerebral. I think it took a lot of work to find the right balance.

This kind of move is two-way risk. If it fails, it has negative repercussions for his business relationships with labels, for his reputation within serious jazz, for his image outside of jazz. It's a calculated risk, not a cash-in on a sure thing.

[relyles]

I have been thinking about the economic model and wondering whether it is necessarily as beneficial to the average jazz musician as has been argued. If I understand correctly, the fundamental assumption is that by allowing the taping and trading of live performances the artist’s income will increase as a result of increased exposure. The increase in income relies upon the increased exposure resulting in increased attendance at concerts and purchases of recordings.

I can’t argue for or against the model, but I do wonder whether it can be proven that the assumptions are true. In my own experience collecting and trading I have found that for many people the activity itself is somewhat addictive. That is, many traders seem to trade for the sake of trading as opposed to using it as a method of continued examination of the music and development of a favored artist. As has been hinted, many traders get more of a rush from simply acquiring a bunch of recordings and adding them to their list as bait for additional trades as opposed to actually making the time for any critical listening of the music that piles up. I also know for a fact that there are many traders that do not purchase the recordings of the artists they trade and instead prefer to listen only to the live recordings. I have heard many times the purported justification for trading that traders actually provide financial support to the artists. Whenever it is stated it seems to almost always be stated as a near absolute. I can’t dispute it either way, but I do think the premise is subject to challenge.

Even for those traders that do attempt to support the music by purchasing recordings and attending concerts, at some point is there a diminishing return? For example, if I have over 30 recordings of Andrew Hill performances and he only releases one recording every couple of years and/or performs in a venue close enough for me to hear him live only rarely, how much is Mr. Hill really benefiting from my obsessive desire to possess every note he has played that has been reduced to a medium for posterity?

On the flip side, for those traders that do not actually record concerts themselves, at some point isn’t it possible that trading can be a disincentive to attending a live performance? We can’t ignore some artists’ concerns that someone new to their music will hear a recording that is not the ideal presentation of their artistry, either because the recording quality itself interferes with the listener’s ability to enjoy the music, or the performance itself was an off night for the musician. Is the listener going to be motivated to investigate further under these circumstances? Also, what about that trader who has acquired such an excessive number of live recordings that he or she does not think there is anything new to be heard by attending a live concert?

What about those traders that live in areas where there are virtually no outlets for live jazz? If we assume most jazz artists make a living off live performances instead of recordings, how is my sharing copy of a terrific Charles Tolliver radio broadcast with one of my trading partners in Taiwan really going to benefit Mr. Tolliver?

We should also consider the percentage of jazz fans that do actually tape, trade and/or trade. I suspect that at this time not a significant enough percentage of the jazz community has even embraced this additional form of collecting for it to have an appreciable affect on the economics.

Again, I am not arguing for or against the model. I do believe that positive exposure is a good thing. I just wonder how significant of an impact this activity will have on the economic circumstances of the average jazz musician. I merely pose these questions as factors that should also be considered.

[Guy Berger]

I think Ron's questions are all good ones. I don't do much trading, but I have downloaded a bunch of stuff from the website-that-must-not-be-named that I haven't listened to. I'm guessing that I will listen to it someday, since it's by artists that I like a lot (Keith Jarrett, Miles, Coltrane, Paul Motian, Weather Report, etc), but it's easy to lapse into mindless accumulation.

Guy

[marcello]

Ron, I think there is a small amount of exposure to be gained by a jazz artist via trades. It opens up a few more ears.

In the Jazz Business, where putting 20 more people in seats at a venue or selling a few dozen more cds can mean something positive, it's worth the risk.

[johnagrandy]

I have heard many times the purported justification for trading that traders actually provide financial support to the artists.  Whenever it is stated it seems to almost always be stated as a near absolute.  I can’t dispute it either way, but I do think the premise is subject to challenge.

We should also consider the percentage of jazz fans that do actually tape, trade and/or trade.  I suspect that at this time not a significant enough percentage of the jazz community has even embraced this additional form of collecting for it to have an appreciable affect on the economics.

Nomenclature might be getting in the way here. It's been called "tape trading" for a long time. If I could re-name it, I would call it "music giving".

In my earlier post I talked about the possible ways I could provide music to someone who is interested in an artist, or whom I think would benefit from an artist's music, without either of us spending any money and without breaking the law.

I believe that if you can do this, then (on avg , over time) it inevitably increases that artist's income.

But my belief has a premise: The premise is that the artist whose music I give has the potential to meaningfully change the life of the recipient for the better. This is why I was talking about "partner-fans".

I believe this because it happenned to me. Specifically, the music of Woody Shaw, John Scofield, and Art Blakey permenently changed my life for the better. More than that: this music helped me get through enormously tough times when few other "lamps to guide the way" were around.

When speaking of serious artists and serious music I see these persons as tapping into positive forces present in the universe that are extremely powerful. They channel that positive energy to others. They provide clues on understanding and figuring out how to deal with complex, confusing, and self-contradictory value systems.

I believe that anyone who is seeking and finds evidence that what they have inside their soul really does exist somewhere out there ... anyone who is inspired by music to better realize their potential ... anyone who because of an artist's music is able to hook-into the universal forces upon which are based positive understanding of oneself and others ... all of those people will support the artist.

They will support the artist because the artist has the ability to express what is going on inside that person's soul as they react to a harsh life in a harsh world.

And that's incredibly valuable because (if you're like me and write software code all day long, and sometimes all night long) you're never going to have time to figure out how to express this kind of stuff yourself.

So, for me, it's a question of how does an artist find his true partners in the endeavor, those who similary perceive the world, and those who similarly "solve the world" on a complex internal level.

Now ... if an artist believes that it's "their music" and I'm just "appreciating it" ... then I doubt I would be interested in that artist's music.

Ideas belong to the universe because only the universe can figure out if they're any good or not.

Edited October 14, 2005 by johnagrandy

[JSngry]

Although I certainly can relate to and deeply appreciate the life-changing powere of music, I see now that it's pointless to continue discussing the more, uh, "earthly" aspects of the business in this thread.

Rigidity can save you, but it can kill you too. Depends on which way the wind is blowing.

[Dan Gould]

I think "the music" is sounds in the air.  It doesn't "belong" to anyone. 

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Seinfeld

Episode 155

The Muffin Tops

Woman: I can't believe somebody pulled the top off of this muffin.

Elaine: That was me. I'm sorry. I don't like the stumps.

Mr Lippman: So you just eat the tops.

Elaine: Oh yeah. It's the best part. It's crunchy, it's explosive, it's where the muffin breaks free of the pan and sort of (makes hand motions) does it's own thing. I'll tell you. That's a million dollar idea right there. Just sell the tops.

**************************

Elaine at the muffin shop.

Elaine: This was my idea you stole my idea!

Mr. Lippman: Elaine, these ideas are all in the air. They're in the air!

Elaine: Well if that air is coming out of this face then it is my air and MY idea.

[relyles]

Ron,  I think there is a small amount of exposure to be gained by a jazz artist via trades. It opens up a few more ears.

In the Jazz Business, where putting 20 more people in seats at a venue or selling a few dozen more cds can mean something positive, it's worth the risk.

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I agree. But it seems to me that an artist should not passively rely on the activities of tapers and/or traders and the distribution of these recordings via one on one trades. An artist can maximize the effect by actively embracing the model. Instead of simply allowing taping and trading, maybe the artist can put 40 more people in the venue by actively encouraging the activity. It would be interesting to know whether artists like Greg Osby and Jeremy Pelt, who actually have live performances available as free MP3 downloads from their websites, have seen a real increase in support as a result.

johnagrady - i don't think there is a problem with the terms used. I applaud you for your efforts to support the musicians you have supported as a result of taping and trading. I simply challenge the premise that your experience is representative of the majority of the trading community. I have seen it both ways, but I still think that the activity can be as much of a disincentive to attend performances and purchase recordings as it can be an incentive.

[marcello]

Ron, I think there is a small amount of exposure to be gained by a jazz artist via trades. It opens up a few more ears.

In the Jazz Business, where putting 20 more people in seats at a venue or selling a few dozen more cds can mean something positive, it's worth the risk.

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I agree. But it seems to me that an artist should not passively rely on the activities of tapers and/or traders and the distribution of these recordings via one on one trades. An artist can maximize the effect by actively embracing the model. Instead of simply allowing taping and trading, maybe the artist can put 40 more people in the venue by actively encouraging the activity. It would be interesting to know whether artists like Greg Osby and Jeremy Pelt, who actually have live performances available as free MP3 downloads from their websites, have seen a real increase in support as a result.

I totally agree and have been trying to encourage that on my end. I think I'll ask Osby.

johnagrady - i don't think there is a problem with the terms used. I applaud you for your efforts to support the musicians you have supported as a result of taping and trading. I simply challenge the premise that your experience is representative of the majority of the trading community. I have seen it both ways, but I still think that the activity can be as much of a disincentive to attend performances and purchase recordings as it can be an incentive.

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Again, I agree. To totally embrace John's premise is one sided, and radical, but his heart's in the right place. The availability of downloads from artist sites is the best of all possible worlds; for the artist, that is.

[GregN]

Excellent discussion, fellas. All around.

g

[Sundog]

The availability of downloads from artist sites is the best of all possible worlds; for the artist, that is.

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Another interesting phenomemon is the whole "Instant Live" concept. Personally, I really like the idea of attending a concert and having an audio souvenir of the experience. Maybe the best of both worlds. The artist(s) gets paid, and fans can purchase a high quality recording of the show that is instantly available after the show.

[GregN]

The availability of downloads from artist sites is the best of all possible worlds; for the artist, that is.

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Another interesting phenomemon is the whole "Instant Live" concept. Personally, I really like the idea of attending a concert and having an audio souvenir of the experience. Maybe the best of both worlds. The artist(s) gets paid, and fans can purchase a high quality recording of the show that is instantly available after the show.

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The bass player in my band is the younger brother of Lamar Williams. Lamar was with the Allman Bros in the 70's. Anyhow, I am not a huge Allman Bros fan but James gets backstage passes and recently asked me to tag along. To make a long story longer, I bought the Instant Live for that performance for 25 bucks. Glad I did.

The CD helps keep the memories of the fun time I had that night, and they had some guy filling in for Warren Haynes and he was smokin'. They also had this very greazy sax player. And of course, the rest of the band sounded great as well.

Very cool concept.

This gives me another idea: Jim had some young kid, just last night, ask if he could tape one of their future shows. I think it would be a cool policy to say "hey, anytime, just do me a favor and pls buy this CD right here (assuming stock on hand), before you do it...". In smaller situations like that, it might work. And it seems reasonable.

Just a thought.

[Sundog]

I've attended a lot of Allman Brothers Band shows over the years. As you may know, they have a liberal policy regarding taping performances. It seems like the last 2 or 3 years I've seen fewer tapers at shows that I've attended. I like to think it's due in no small part to the fact that the shows have been readily available via Instant Live. Superior audio quality, nice packaging, and the convenience of having it in your hands 20 minutes post show, are all selling points that make it real hard to justify the hassle of taping. It a good product being sold at a reasonable price that I'm more than happy to pay for. I hope that the costs associated of this type of process continue to drop so that the technology becomes viable for artists who draw crowds of a couple hundred, as opposed to a couple thousand.

P.S. The guitar player filling in for Warren was Jack Pearson and the sax player was Ron Holloway. Jack's a really good player and an ABB alum.

P.P.S. I like Lamar's playing on Brothers and Sisters

[johnagrandy]

I applaud you for your efforts to support the musicians you have supported as a result of taping and trading.  I simply challenge the premise that your experience is representative of the majority of the trading community.  I have seen it both ways, but I still think that the activity can be as much of a disincentive to attend performances and purchase recordings as it can be an incentive.

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But take it up into a larger context. The context Sun Ra illuminates when he speaks of this world as a university where most spend their lives learning to punish themselves.

When he speaks about "human potential" as being "beyond the truth" what Sun is referring to is the the destructive nature of a cold and desolate society that destroys belief systems, destroys culture, destroys community, destroys the human soul. What Sun was talking about is waste. Wasted thoughts. Wasted hopes and dreams. Wasted lives. Wasted time on this planet.

We live in artificial environments that are initally externally generated, but ultimately self-concocted to make us feel comfortable ... sedated ... in a society gone mad. Others suffer the lonliest and cruelest of fates but in response we just watch and quietly empathize.

It's no good. What this world needs, what this country needs, now, is revolution. Peaceful revolution, but revolution nonetheless. People must speak the truth. Musicians must speak the truth because they are among the few who can tap into the mass consciousness. The word has to get out, somehow.

We are hated throughout the world. Our leaders are perceived as frauds, our institutions suspect, our culture mocked, our "interventions" in world affairs but a twisted and perverted effort to prop up our selfish and greedy "lifestyle".

Some force has to rise up against this wave. This wave of hatred that has gripped strongly ahold of what America represents to the universe.

Disaffected exhibitions of musical prowess, archaeologic reconstructions of anachronistic societal contexts with only very indirect relevance to the present, purposeful creation of distinct boundaries between the listener and creator ... none of this will do.

Those with the power to communicate on a deep level must meet the challenge and seek to reach out to as many as possible.

The music is the message. The message is the music.

[Mr. Gone]

[relyles]

johnagrady you have taken this discussion to a place that I can not follow you.