Jazz Kat Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 We were playing last night around 2 in the morning. We were running through our tunes that we're going to be recording in about a week. They are Afro Blue, Watermelon Man, Nardis, Night In Tunisia, Well You Neddn't, Blue In Green, and Deluge. We were playing and the bass player's dad, who happens to have about 100 cd's out, (he plays bass too) starts questioning us on our direction. He told us we were sounding really 'out there' and getting really progressive. He told us if we wanna get gigs, we need to play straight ahead. And if we don't, not real jazz musicians will like us. Any ideas?? We really wanna play far out there stuff, but our advice is to play more, in the box, to get more gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Can't say too much if I haven't heard it. :rsmile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 You can't really play "out" until you know how to play "in" is what my ears tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 What's a "not real jazz musician"? A non-musican? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 There are no short cuts in music, that's just the plain, hard truth. Learn from the basics up...skipping and jumping ahead will just lead to future frustrations....just from experience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 I guess my advice is "play what you want". You're not trying to put bread on the table and though you're going to have to make compromises for the rest of your life, now's probably the best time to play the kind of music you want to. None of this bears on others' excellent advice to "learn the basics" -- this is good advice no matter what music you play. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted October 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Most of us have been playing "the basics" since we were about 11 or 12. Well I can say for myself, I rather be playing something totaly new. Anybody want a copy of the cd when it's done recording? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted October 8, 2005 Report Share Posted October 8, 2005 Most of us have been playing "the basics" since we were about 11 or 12. Well I can say for myself, I rather be playing something totaly new. Anybody want a copy of the cd when it's done recording? ← Yeah, A Night In Tunisia gets so boring after while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Who's the bass player's dad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Will Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 dude! dont get career advice from will lee. he is one jive cat. guys got no soul. purely commercial cheeseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 (edited) I seem to remember JK mentioning that their bassist's father was Dominic Duval, in which case, the advice is probably a lot more nuanced that a simple "play bebop or else you're not cool". I mean, this cat's C.V. (see HERE) is almost entirely "free jazz", at least on record. He might even have been pulling your leg. Or he might have been suggesting, in a very kind, fatherly way, that y'all's "fundamentals" still need some tightening up. Or he might have simply been transferring his own personal career frustrations onto y'all, letting you know that life as a professional jazz musician is indeed a lot easier if you "play by the rules". I don't know.... What I do know is that the notion of learning how to play "in" before you play "out" is not necessarily one to which I subscribe, at least not dogmatically. Nobody suggests that we must learn to play "Dixieland" before we tackle bebop, do they? Playing music as a means of self-expression is first and foremeost about finding "it" within yourself and getting it out in the deepest, truest, and most refined manner possible. That requires constant development of instrumental and personal skills, but it doesn't necessarily require learning the specifics of one particular "style" inside and out. I mean, if Marion Brown's your main inspiration, then copping all of Phil Woods' shit is probably not going to be relevant to your lifestyle, if you know what I mean... Having said that,, though, I can't stress enough how deeply I believe in continued learning in general, which is not the same as learning a specific style or genre. If you're going to be using an instrument as your means of expression, you need to know not just how you feel, but also everything that the instrument is capable of. Getting into your zone is the ultimate goal, but if you don't know what has already been accomplished, you may well end up performing the musical equivalent of discovering a crack in the wall and thinking, due to a lack of a broader perspective, that it's the Grand Canyon. I see a lot of that, unfortunately. There is no, I repeat, no substitute for knowing your instrument as thoroughly as possible, and that means investigating, and learning from, the past as well as exploring, and creating, the presentfuture. Learning about other musics (styles, eras, whatever) isn't really about learning about other musics. It;s about learning about other people - what they've come up against musically, professionally, and personally, and how they've dealt with it. The last thing I want to hear out of any music is the story of somebody who's either so insulated from the world at large that their music has no relevance to amybody but themself, or, conversely, music that is so generic that it creates no compulsion to care about it as anything other than a passing blip on the generic noise radar. You've got to find your own way, but you've also got to make it relevant to somebody besides yourself. Learning isn't monodirectional, it's omnidirectional. You gotta learn about yourself and about others. about what you might be able to do and about what others have already done. You've got to learn "backwards" as well as "forwards". Now, "learning" does not in any way equat with "copying". Copying is physically taxing but spiritually, it's the easy way out, if that's where you stop. - It's really just a matter of mechanics and muscle memory. Period. It's important, but, really, it's a preliminary at best. Knowing why the old guys played why and what they did, that's where the learning comes in. That's when and where you discover the true humanity of the music, and it's a maxim of any kind of education that the more you learn about the humanity of others, the better equipped you are to learn about your own. If the result of "learning" is simple cloning, well, that's no learning at all, is it? That's merely a means of mass-production, dig? You've reduced yourself to a faceless cog in the machine, and you will be treated (and will treat yourself and others) accordingly. Nice work ir you can't get it! In a nutshell, my advice (other than adding the caveat that all this is much easier said than done...) would be this - know what you know and go with that with a firm pride and confidence rooted in an even firmer humilty. Know that what you know is nothing in comparison to what there is to be learned, that in fact some of, or even everything, you know today might well be right, buit that it also might well turn out to be partially, or even totally, wrong tomorrow, and that it will always be that way. Proceed accordingly. What, if anything, that means to you, now or later, will determine what direction your music, no - your life, will take, and that, my friend, is entirely your call. Edited October 9, 2005 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave9199 Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Definately play what you, and only you, want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 Definately play what you, and only you, want. ← After a point, sure. But the concept of "apprenticeship" is a sound one afaic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted October 9, 2005 Report Share Posted October 9, 2005 I know one pitfall many, many, many musicians of all genres fall into is...."I don't want to copy anybody, I'm going to be completely original." That might work for the .000000000001 percent of musical geniuses out there (maybe not even for them either), but it's a nowhere road and a lazy man's way out (no pun intended) for the majority. Even Albert Ayler was called "Little Bird" and also had serious blues dues with Little Walter and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted October 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I may have worded what Dominic Duvol has said, a little wrong. I think the big picture he was trying to tell us was that, the majority of our gigs are going to be at small bars and clubs where people just want to have a drink and relax and listen to mainstream quiet music. He stressed that it would be better if we had a chord player, to keep people's attention, because they have no idea what we're doing is actually with some intelligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Johnson Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 Dude. Listen to what jsngry says. Learn it. Live it. The man knows whereof he speaks. I may have worded what Dominic Duvol has said, a little wrong. I think the big picture he was trying to tell us was that, the majority of our gigs are going to be at small bars and clubs where people just want to have a drink and relax and listen to mainstream quiet music. He stressed that it would be better if we had a chord player, to keep people's attention, because they have no idea what we're doing is actually with some intelligence. ← Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 (edited) Not much to add to what Sangrey said! I think a lot of your musical options will depend on the goals of the group- if you looking at this as a means to make money, then you will need to be prepared to play in an "appropriate" manner to satisfy the needs of a variety of circumstances (audience, club owner, type of gig etc.), perhaps sometimes in a manner you might feel is comprimising your goals. I'm not talking about pop tunes or anything like that; I mean you might be playing jazz standards in a environment where it might not be appropriate to go too far "out". I'm not saying you shouldn't try things, but sometimes you have to pick and choose when it is appropriate. When money meets art compromise becomes an issue. If you are playing purely for your own enjoyment "appeasing an audience" would obviously be less of a priority. That being said, I think (and this is my opinion) and have always thought that all roads to playing "out" must first pass through some other disciplines, like bebop for example. I've heard players who have chosen to play out because they were simply too lazy (or chose not) to deal with fundamentals of jazz harmony, phrasing, rhythmic variation etc. Someone like Ornette to me obviously has studied bop, blues etc. and it comes out in his playing. Then there are also a lot of players who in my opinion are bullshit artists. I think of bebop as comparable to baroque music- very structured, melodic, sequential, sometimes fairly narrowly defined. I think every player should study bebop (and baroque for that matter- I consider studying Bach's Cello Suites on trombone as some of my most significant jazz study!). The problem, and this is where jazz education is justly criticized IMHO, is when these "discplines" are taught not as a means to an end, but and end in and of themself. It's important to study and master styles, but the next step should be to use these skills to further the music, explore something new. Many music schools ignore that last step, and that's why there are so many "clones" graduating from jazz programs. Always be open to exploration, but study all the styles of music (this is the "apprenticeship" that Sangrey refers to). Be ready to go in whatever direction the musical moment dictates. It's just like developing a vocabulary. I've said this before, but Clark Terry puts what I'm trying to say very succinctly: "IMITATE - ASSIMILATE - INNOVATE" Edited October 10, 2005 by Free For All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 10, 2005 Report Share Posted October 10, 2005 I may have worded what Dominic Duvol has said, a little wrong. I think the big picture he was trying to tell us was that, the majority of our gigs are going to be at small bars and clubs where people just want to have a drink and relax and listen to mainstream quiet music. He stressed that it would be better if we had a chord player, to keep people's attention, because they have no idea what we're doing is actually with some intelligence. ← Sounds to me like he wants y'all to keep working and playing because he knows that that's what young players need more than anything else. I'd pay attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Also depends on how much studio time you've got. Lots of commercial demos are only 3/4 or so songs long. You could put down a few 'pretty' things to pull in the gigs, then play your own music for your own satisfaction: treat it like two sessions, if you like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted October 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 We got about 5 or 6 hours in the studio and about 7 songs, each about 5 minutes long at the least. Nardis is about 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 We got about 5 or 6 hours in the studio and about 7 songs, each about 5 minutes long at the least. Nardis is about 10. ← Sounds do-able depending on how long it takes to get mics placed and get sounds. My advice is to do no more than a couple passes (definitely no more than three) at each tune before going to the next one. In my experience after a couple tries you start to second-guess yourself and basically start to think too much- spontaneity inevitably declines. Move on to the next tune and come back later for additional attempts. If you're making demos to use for shopping for gigs the cuts should be fairly succinct and not too rambling, although you could always edit a longer take for the purpose of a demo. If this is just for your own pleasure stretch to your heart's content! Good luck JK! Keep us informed of your progress! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted October 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 I'll give you a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregN Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 I may have worded what Dominic Duvol has said, a little wrong. I think the big picture he was trying to tell us was that, the majority of our gigs are going to be at small bars and clubs where people just want to have a drink and relax and listen to mainstream quiet music. He stressed that it would be better if we had a chord player, to keep people's attention, because they have no idea what we're doing is actually with some intelligence. ← Music is about communication. Things can be accessible AND smart. With that said, best of luck with your recording. Recording can be quite revealing and fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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