Gigolo Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 While I think it's great that BN is re-issuing classic BN titles at a budget price, and I plan on getting titles that I don't already have, I have some issues with the sound of the RVGs. Even though in general they sound 'fast', have a forward presence, with great front to back depth, and full tonality, I've noticed that they seem to be remastered at a loud level and therefore transient peaks seem to be quished. Also, the highs seem to be rolled off leading to a slightly grey color to the sound -trumpet high notes and cymbals most effected. I'm not talking about the upper midrange where you can associate brightness with. My basis of camparison is not so much original LP issues or even first generation BN Cds, but more recent BN Conns and regular CD re-issues(1997+), 1995+ Impulse CDs, and OJCs recorded at Rudys. A good example is to listen to the Empyrean Isles RVG and then compare to the Hancock boxset. Tony Williams louder moments seem to be flatened more on the RVG and Freddie Hubbard's trumpet is missing some sparkle in the higher notes. Even though the RVG has a greater sense of depth and lacks noise reduction, and has a fuller tonality, and may sound faster, I prefer the boxset version - cleaner dynamic headroom is much more important. Just recently, I got the same impression going through Freddie Hubbard's dates a leader on Impulse re-issue CDs, Conn CDs, and RVG. I really like the re-issue of Goin' Up. So polarity aside... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Hi Gigolo, Too bad the old Blue Note Bulletin Board archives are not available right now, 'cause boy was THIS issue discussed at length! Suffice to say that there are very real differences between the RVG and non-RVG reissues, that much everyone agrees on, but personal taste dictates preference. I'm assuming you mean U.S. RVGs - Japanese versions are a different story, much spottier in terms of sonic quality in my view although there are some stunning ones (e.g. the Sonny Clark Trio complete 2CD set). I tend to prefer the RVG's way far over all but the most recent non-RVG Blue Note/affiliated labels 24-bit remasterings by Malcolm Addy (for example, his job on the recent Basie CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD reissue is nothing short of stunning). Newer McMasters are OK, not bad, but they just don't do it for me - it's a style thing, I don't like his work very much. Everything sounds tinny and tiny, even though there may be a little more "dynamic headroom." I agree the RVGs sound a little heavier on the midrange, but I find the high end roll-off makes the music sound more natural, more like being in a club or listening to vinyl - not that harsh, sibilant "brightness" that is associated with CD. The bass is much fuller to my ears, too. Whether RVG achieves this with compression or not, I'm really not sure, but it doesn't sound OVERLY "compressed" to me as it does to many. I also notice that I can listen to RVGs for a long time without getting ear fatigue, which is not true of all the McMasters up until the last couple years or so, and I think that's also due to lack of harshness in the high end. Finally, I prefer Rudy's soundstage - much deeper and less "panned" than the McMasters in particular, which are "shallow" and often (artificially) widely panned, especially the older ones. There have been a few "flubbed" RVGs where either he overdid it or the manufacturing process introduced a problem, but overall I am a huge fan of that series. Nice price point, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 I stand with Dr. J on this one too. Keep those RVGs a-comin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 (edited) I think my favorite domestic RVG's are those where Rudy is remastering Doug Hawkins', rather than his own, work. I'm thinking specifically of the Monk's, Powell's, Davis's, and one Clifford Brown ("Memorial"). I was dubious of re-buying all those titles when they first came out, but man ... I'm very glad I did. What a tremendous difference! I still get excited just seeing them, even after two years, at stores. To anyone who doesn't have these (esp. Monk Vol.s 1&2, Powell Vol.s 1&2, Davis Vol.s 1&2), hop on over to Borders soon, and snatch them all up for $8.99 each! (And, actually, starting today, you can use that 20% off coupon that someone linked on another thread here. That makes RVG's $7.19!) For me, there are at least three instances where the Japanese RVG's are significantly superior in remastering to their domestic counterparts. They are: • Out to Lunch • Speak No Evil • JuJu Now ... if only Rudy would get the go-ahead to remaster more of Doug Hawkins' work! The Elmo Hope Blue Notes, the Lou Mecca (which sounds great on the JRVG) ... what else? Edited July 11, 2003 by Late Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GregM Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 I agree, and if Van Gelder could revisit those early Monk and Powell recordings and do hybrid SACDs, like the recent Blue Train, that would be even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn·m Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Argh! Dynamic range. Like a moth to flame, I can’t avoid piping in on this subject any more than Chris can abstain from… In general, I’ll take an early McMaster over an RVG any day. Tonal balance can be adjusted by the listener, but there’s no fix for over compression. In my experience, most RVGs have all the dynamic range of a television broadcast and lead to fatigue much quicker than early McMasters. Heavy compression seems to be today’s industry standard and damned if I can figure out why that is. Unfortunately McMaster has been leaning as heavily on compression as RVG in recent years, but Malcolm Addey, God bless him, is bucking the trend and is still preserving some healthy dynamics. His work on Mosaic’s recent Stitt set, for example, is wonderful. Ya know, I think Malcolm’s the only Blue Note re-issue engineer whose work is liked and respected by all; RVG-ers and anti-RVG-ers alike. Too bad the man doesn’t do more work for Blue Note & Mosaic. Please Blue Note, have a heart and send any future SACD re-issues Malcolm’s way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Late - unless I'm totally mistaken, I think there were a couple of Japanese RVG's of the early Elmo Hope material issued by Blue Note...I remember seeing them at Tower in Mountain View, CA. Anyone else confirm that? I passed on them, just based on cost considerations, but agree it would be wonderful if they could get this stuff out in better sound in the U.S. Also, the Japanese discs were straight reissues of 10" albums, so no bonus tracks as I recall, and with a U.S. issue they could get all the music out. I do think the sonic upgrades of the Doug Hawkins stuff have indeed been the most remarkable ones in the RVG series so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 I do know that there was a JRVG of the Elmo Hope Quintet that had just the original tracks, not all the tracks of the US cd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Yes, I think you're right Lon. But I could have sworn I saw two separate ones - one that had the cover they used on the U.S. CD that brought all the material together, and one with the green cover. You're right though, in both cases there was just the original 10" tracks, no extras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 In the Elmo Hope thread the inititator reports that he has the other JRVG; it would reissue just the Trio material, and I've never seen that, don't know if it's recent or a former release. I believe it may have been a part of the 10" series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Having lived through this problem of Blue Note CD masterings for several years now, I have kinda summed it all up in my mind. My main conclusion is that it is a shame that, for an outstanding catalog such as Blue Note, there should have been so many poor CD remasterings. When you compare them with CDs of such labels as Columbia, Impulse and the Fantasy family (i.e. OJCs and the box sets), it is clear that there is no excuse for all these bad CDs, and that includes the early ones from the late 80s. (I just got the Bill Evans Riverside set, from 1987, and it puts nearly all BN CDs to shame.) It sure gets tiresome, having to grub around for the best version of these classic sessions. (And I'm NOT an audiophile.) You will not convince me that remastering is difficult for a pro - especially with all the fancy equipment at their disposal. I am a total amateur, and with Musicmatch I can easily make a superb LP to CD transfer. I agree with the comment above that Malcolm Addey is a fine U.S. BN remasterer. I sure wish that BN and Mosaic would use him for the non RVGs. Ronnie has laid some eggs recently. I am quite happy with most U.S. and Japanese RVGs that I've heard, though. And, on occasion (especially when he still used 20 bits), Ron does a good job. The Hancock box set is great, and I like the Parlan Mosaic. The "Koers Rule" is correct though: the TOCJ "BN Works" versions are by far the best, where they exist; these are McMasters, though, in the case of albums that never made it to LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Vitus Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 There have been two Elmo Hope JRVGs. The trio disc had 8 tracks, missing 2 tracks ("It's A Lovely Day Today" and an alternate take of "Mo Is On") from the session with Heath and Philly Joe. The quintet disc had 6 tracks, missing only an alternate take ("Crazy") from the session with Frank Foster, Freeman Lee, Heath, and Blakey. The domestic had 20 tracks, 17 tracks from the two sessions mentioned above plus 3 tracks from a Pacific Jazz session from 1957 with Land, Stu Williamson, Vinnegar, and Butler. The OOP domestic was available from Tower for quite a while but now I see it's no longer there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigolo Posted July 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 (edited) Hmm, I'll listen more carefully to recent McMaster jobs and I see If I notice a clearer trend towards louder masterings. Sorry to bring up a dead horse, missed the fun at the BN BB apparently. Edited July 12, 2003 by Gigolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Greg, I didn't think you even listened to cds anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GregM Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 (edited) I've never said I stopped listening to CDs. I've said I stopped buying them. Edited July 12, 2003 by GregM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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