Ben Webster's Verve Recordings

[montg]

Did anybody else on Granz' label in the 50s record as many classic sessions as Ben Webster? I don't think even Eldridge, or Hodges, or Getz was as consistently great as Big Ben. Any favorites? King of the tenors (Webster and Sweets) for me. And Soulville.

Some Verve recordings.

king of the tenors

Soulville

Soul of Ben Webster

Meets Gerry Mulligan

and associates

meets Oscar Peterson

encounters Coleman Hawkins

music with feeling

[Dan Gould]

I'm with you, a terrific series of recordings. Just impossible to choose among them, although the strings album never quite did it for me, relatively speaking. But God bless Granz for recording Ben so much.

[Harold_Z]

Agreed.

In addition to the above, Ben sounds great on the Verve Billie Holiday recordings he participated in. He's one of the reasons why I enjoy those recordings of Billie's so much. Every time he solos it's a gem.

[pepe]

No mention of the Webster/Tatum, IMHO one of the greatest jazz recordings ever?

[montg]

Forgot about the Tatum and Webster. Why did MGM let Granz keep the Tatum tapes when Verve was sold? It's odd that the Tatum material was carved out of the rest of the catalog.

The beautiful thing about Webster is that he was totally authentic whether playing a ballad ('Time after time' on "Associates" is one of the loveliest things in my collection), a mid tempo blues (Soulville), or something uptempo (Cottontail on King of the Tenors). He must have been a complex individual, gruff, and vulnerable, and earthy all at the same time.

[Stereojack]

Forgot about the Tatum and Webster. Why did MGM let Granz keep the Tatum tapes when Verve was sold?  It's odd that the Tatum material was carved out of the rest of the catalog.

Granz did not keep the Tatum tapes. In the 1970's he bought them back, saying that he regretted having sold them.

[Chuck Nessa]

for Granz.

[Larry Kart]

I think the recordings Webster did for Granz are quite variable. The Tatum is solid gold, and Ben is in particuarly fine form on Harry Edison's "Sweets" (as he is backing Holiday with the same or much the same lineup -- Sweets, Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Joe Mondragon, and Alvin Stoller -- at about the same time), but the rhythm sections on "Soulville," "Gee Baby Ain't I Good To You," and "Ben Webster and Associates" seem pretty leaden to me (the first two thanks to Oscar Peterson I believe, the last probably because Jimmy Jones is in a very static mood (he could get that way), and when Ben didn't have a good time wave to float on, he could thrash and bluster some -- not that there isn't power and and meaning in that, but once I've heard peak Webster of this period (e.g. "Sweets" and the Tatum album), for me it's hard not to tell the difference and hard then to settle for less. I also don't think Ben is at his best on the encounter with Mulligan. BTW, there's some gorgeous floating/gliding Ben on "Nuages" and "Blue and Sentimental" from "Legrand Jazz" (Columbia), rec. 1958, where he's backed by four trombones, rhythm, and Herbie Mann. Ben captured in 30th St. Studio sound is something to behold.

[Dan Gould]

Personally, I've never had a problem with the Webster/Peterson encounters. I think my first exposure to Peterson was on a Verve two-fer LP set of the Webster recordings. Gets a big from me.

[DrJ]

Ben Webster, a great, great artist. Wonderful in all periods but certainly that run for Granz was magisterial. Particularly fond of the first few sessions for Verve especially.

[brownie]

'Soulville' is among the very best of the Ben Webster Verve recordings.

And it works because of the backing by Oscar Peterson.

To quote from the original notes - by Nat Hentoff - to the 'Soulville' album:

'Ben is very fond of the Peterson trio. ''For one thing,'' he begins, ''there are some piano players that get in your way, but Oscar never does and so you have nothing to worry about. One of the things I dig about him is that the guy can play a lot as a soloist, but when it comes time for you to solo, he plays for you.''

This shows on 'Soulville'. 'Ill Wind' from that session is a classic!

[sidewinder]

Those CD twofers from some years back ('Soul of Ben Webster' and 'Music For loving') were jam packed full of great music. Excellent value too, I recall.

[Alexander Hawkins]

I find that for some players, Peterson could really get in the way - e.g. Benny Carter. The trio seemed to lock-down slightly oblivious to their context. But with Webster, I think their really tight groove works quite well as a foil.

Wasn't there some remark made about Webster likening his to Clark Gable - 'at once a brute and a hero'?

The Tatum album? One of the few things I could sincerely call 'perfect'.

[montg]

BTW, there's some gorgeous floating/gliding Ben on "Nuages" and "Blue and Sentimental" from "Legrand Jazz" (Columbia), rec. 1958, where he's backed by four trombones, rhythm, and Herbie Mann. Ben captured in 30th St. Studio sound is something to behold.

I didn't even know this recording existed. What a lineup!

legrand jazz

[Larry Kart]

"Legrand Jazz' is something less than the sum of its parts at times, thanks to Legrand occasionally cute ideas and the bitty air of some tracks, but on the whole it's a lot of fun.

Brownie -- I know what Webster said about O.P. in the "Soulville" notes (and I agree "Ill Wind" is a good one), but Ben also praised Rowles to the skies as an accompanist on more than one occasion, and my ears tell me that the Rowles, Kessel, Mondragon, Stoller rhythm section on "Sweets" is much more effective than the O.P, Ellis, Brown, Stan Levey one on "Soulville." (Actually, now that I think of it, Levey may also be a part of the problem; while his oddly minaturized ride cymbal beat can be just fine in bop or West Coast settings, with O.P. at the piano, Levey's time feel can make things (or make things seem) a bit airless. As I recall, something similar happens on that Granz Jam Session date from 1958 with Mullligan, Getz, Edison, O.P., Levey et al., the one with "Chocolate Sundae"). BTW, I'm not saying that O.P. killed every Granz session where he was part of the rhythm section in that period; for one, he certainly has a lot to do with the success of "Stan Getz and the Oscar Peterson Trio." It's just that IMO he could get very mechanical as a comper -- rhythmically and harmonically -- and when he did, that didn't help. In any case, if you know "Sweets," what do you think? Certainly, the feel of those two rhythm sections is quite different. Even more striking, compare the feel of "Sweets" to that of "Gee Baby Ain't I Good to You."

[brownie]

Larry, now if we compare Rowles to OP, no argument from this side!

I like Peterson, but I love Rowles!

And if you add Mondragon and Kessel, the case rests!

Just wanted to point out how good that 'Soulville' date was!

[DrJ]

I love LEGRAND JAZZ. Given the range and number of players involved, what he pulled off is kind of remarkable. Webster's contributions are wonderful, as are just about everyone's.

I do agree very much with Larry K. about OP with Webster - I'll take Rowles backing him up any day of the week, though nothing "bad" about OP with Webster to my ears either. Just that with Rowles it was a match made in heaven.

[Big Al]

How about all the great work Ben did with Johnny Hodges? That alone is worth the price of the Hodges Mosaic! I’m listening to the session they did with Herb Ellis and Lou Levy. Who knew these two could be so West Coast! Very cool, indeed!

Or how about his stomping and shouting on the Norman Granz Jam Sessions?

I love “Meets Oscar Peterson” and “Soulville,” as it’s probably my favorite work of OP. He and Ben sure locked!

But then, “And Associates” is my favorite Ben record, just because he swaggers and struts among some big names (Hawk, Eldridge, Papa Jo). Plus, I’ve always enjoyed Jimmy Jones playing on this session. Very understated, yet incredibly swinging!

Ben Webster is my favorite tenor player, period! :tup :tup

[shrugs]

the live date with Jimmy Witherspoon.

One day we got ham and bacon.........

[Guy Berger]

I love “Meets Oscar Peterson” and “Soulville,” as it’s probably my favorite work of OP. He and Ben sure locked!

I picked up these two during the summer and have finally gotten around to "meets OP". What a magnificent record. I'll get to Soulville in a few weeks and am looking forward to it!

Guy

[thomastreichler]

How about all the great work Ben did with Johnny Hodges? That alone is worth the price of the Hodges Mosaic! I’m listening to the session they did with Herb Ellis and Lou Levy. Who knew these two could be so West Coast! Very cool, indeed!

Yes, the session with Lou Levy, Herb Ellis, Wilfred Middlebrooks and Gus Johnson is superb: Great soloing by Webster and Hodges, and the rhythm section is swinging like mad (with regard to straight ahead swingin', Gus Johnson had few peers).

Another highly recommended Verve session is "Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster", recorded 1959 with backing by Jimmy Rowles, Leroy Vinnegar and Mel Lewis (another superbly swinging rhythm team).

As for the Oscar Peterson / Jimmy Rowles controversy: In my opinion both pianists are highly compatible with Ben Webster. It is just that they create a completely dfferent kind of atmosphere: While the sound carpet created by the rhythm section of Oscar Peterson, Herb Ellis, Ray Brown and either Stan Levey or Alvin Stoller is heavy and dense (but nevertheless incredibly swinging, listen to "Late Date" on "Soulville" for example), the sound of Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Joe Mondragon and Alvin Stoller is light and airy, much more transparent (and incredibly swinging as well). And just to make sure: as much as I love Oscar Peterson, as an accompanist (of Billie Holiday, Zoot Sims and every other soloist he has backed) Jimmy Rowles is unsurpassed.

[king ubu]

Hm, I love this string of albums, hard to pick a favourite... but I never really got into "Soulville" so far. It was the last of these (with only "Sweets" being later, I only just got that a few months ago), and it's the one I like the least. I love "Hawk encounters Webster", but then again that was the first of all of these I've heard... anyway, the two 2CD sets are fantastic as well! The Strayhorn cuts on the strings twofer... great music!

"King of Tenors" I found too short, too sketchy... will have to spin it again soon. The collaboration with Mulligan is great, that one I love, and Rowles plays quite a part in that!

[BruceH]

I'm a big fan of the Webster Verve catalog too. This thread makes me want to check my collection for anything I'm missing, and get it right away.

[Free For All]

I second all the previously mentioned recordings and add this one (not a Verve, but not to be missed):

A great session w/Joe Zawinul, Philly Joe Jones, Sam Jones (or Richard Davis) and Thad Jones. Very nice.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Free For All

[Big Al]

anyway, the two 2CD sets are fantastic as well! The Strayhorn cuts on the strings twofer... great music!

I wish I could agree, but those "with Strings" albums bore me just remembering them!