BFT 32 Discussion Disc 2

[Stefan Wood]

Discuss BFT #32 disc 2 here.

Edited January 6, 2006 by Stefan Wood

[felser]

2-1 Really interesting stuff. 60's new thing with roots in hard bop. I really enjoyed it, talented players being stretched.

2-2 Also really liked this, more of a 70's feel to the rhythm section. great bass player, love the trumpet also. A Coltrane-inspired trumpeter. Hannibal Marvin Peterson or Woody Shaw? Even the soprano solo isnt' bad. Drummer kicks butt behind the soloists, rhythm section is fabulous overall. I'm gonna guess that it's the Woody Shaw/Louis Hayes group with Rene McLean, Stafford James, Ronnie Mathews.

2-3 Very well played for the most part (although I can't stand the alto solo), but has a sort of "routine, by the book" flavor, like it's been doen too many times before. I found that a lot in some of the late 60's Blue Note (especially the Lee Morgan dates from that period) until some of those players found new routes to explore (like Morgan on 'Live at the Lighthouse' and 'Lee Morgan').

2-4 What really jumps out at me is how good the baritone player is. Has to be Pepper Adams, as no one else has ever had such agility on the instrumemt. Loved his playing - he is missed. The rest is very good, but not terribly inspired.

2-5 70's rhythm selction with a nice, loping beat. Another fine, Coltrane-influenced trumpeter, sounds like Hannibal Marvin Peterson to me. Tenor solo (George Adams?) didn't do much for me.

2-6 Herbie Mann. He really could play the flute well when given a proper context, which this is. This must be from the 50's. I enjoyed the drummer a lot. Mann's ability yet his tendency toward commercialism made him both overrated and underrated at the same time, a good trick.

2-7 Brubeck and Desmond. When I came up in the early 70's, they were considered uncool, so I didn't really check them out. But I love their stuff now that I know it, so I'm glad that now it's OK to like them.

2-8 Hate the trombone multiphonics, and really the trombone in general on this. Love the rhythm section, who has that 70's Strata-East thing DOWN.

2-9 Really nice sparse latin groove. trumpet, bass, drums all kick butt on this.

2-10 Nice enough 70's modal piece, except the tuba is really annoying! Liked the trumpet player, but overall the performance is nothing special.

2-11 Nice funky cut, well played all-around by tight ensemble, good solos.

2-12 Crassly commercial 60's soul jazz, of the Atlantic variety. Nothing to sink your teeth into. Hank Crawford? Fathead Newman?

2-13 Gabor Szabo, who sounded like no one else. I could listen to him play anything, and enjoy it. What unique tuning on the guitar. The fluke songwriting royalties on 'Gypsy Queen' must have surprised and pleased him.

[Michael Weiss]

1. CLIFFORD JORDAN: Inward Fire (Muse)

"Inward Fire"

Dizzy Reese

Pat Patrick

Howard Johnson

Muhal Richard Abrams

Richard Davis

Louis Hayes

7. CHARLES McPHERSON: McPherson's Mood (Prestige)

"Explorations"

Barry Harris

Buster Williams

Roy Brooks

10. FRANK STROZIER: Remember Me (SteepleChase)

"Get Out of Town"

Danny Moore

Howard Johnson

Harold Mabern

Lisle Atkinson

Michael Carvin

Stefan you must be a sad guy - nine out of thirteen tunes in minor keys.

2-4 What really jumps out at me is how good the baritone player is. Has to be Pepper Adams, as no one else has ever had such agility on the instrumemt. Loved his playing - he is missed. The rest is very good, but not terribly inspired.

Baritone player is definitely not Pepper Adams.

2-7 Brubeck and Desmond. When I came up in the early 70's, they were considered uncool, so I didn't really check them out. But I love their stuff now that I know it, so I'm glad that now it's OK to like them.

If Paul Desmond and Dave Brubeck played like that they probably wouldn't have gotten so popular.

Edited January 8, 2006 by Michael Weiss

[felser]

2-4 What really jumps out at me is how good the baritone player is. Has to be Pepper Adams, as no one else has ever had such agility on the instrumemt. Loved his playing - he is missed. The rest is very good, but not terribly inspired.

Baritone player is definitely not Pepper Adams.

2-7 Brubeck and Desmond. When I came up in the early 70's, they were considered uncool, so I didn't really check them out. But I love their stuff now that I know it, so I'm glad that now it's OK to like them.

If Paul Desmond and Dave Brubeck played like that they probably wouldn't have gotten so popular.

I thought of another agile bari player it could be - Nick Brignola. Mike, glad I can provide you and the board with so much entertainment!

[Stefan Wood]

Geez, I thought these were happy tunes! They are for me at least!

[Big Al]

I’ve only kinda breezed thru the disc at this point, and I don’t have it with me right now (forgot to bring it to work, DRAT!!!), but I want to thank you for putting “Gypsy Blue” on here. Now, I don’t know who does the version that’s on the BFT (and haven’t looked at anyone else’s guesses yet), but as soon as I heard it, I tried to remember what it was and found myself digging out my CD of Freddie Hubbard’s OPEN SESAME and Tina Brooks’ TRUE BLUE to listed to the version I know. Pretty much been listening to that disc nonstop as a result!

[Stereojack]

I've spent the last couple of days with this disc listening while driving to & from work, and hope I 've come up with a few decent guesses!

1. This reminds me of some of the early 60’s Max Roach groups, but I seem to recall that most of those sessions were without piano, so I don’t know. If this is Roach, then we’ve got George Coleman on tenor, Booker Little trumpet, a second tenor player. The tempo seems to be more than some of the musicians are comfortable with, and the drummer really doesn’t sound like Max. Kind of a muddy recording, as well.

2. This is awfully familiar, but coming up with some names? These guys are very much in the Miles Smiles bag, but who the hell is the soprano player? Maybe this is of more recent vintage than the mid-1960’s style suggests? Good playing all around.

3. A bluesier bag on this. I think the alto gives it away. Joe Gordon, trumpet, from Lookin’ Good, with the unruly Jimmy Woods on alto!

4. Can’t really place this – sounds like 1950’s. Possibly Cecil Payne on bari? Or maybe Tate Houston? Can’t place the tenor.

5. This whole thing has got a McCoy Tyner feel to it, I wonder if this might be from one of those Blue Note sessions that came out years after the fact. Is that John Gilmore on tenor? The trumpet has got to Freddie.

6. I think this is a Freddie Hubbard tune, probably from his Open Sesame album. I’m gonna guess that this is James Spaulding on flute, probably from one of his recent Muse or Highnote albums.

7. Boppish alto. The drummer reminds me of Philly Joe – can it be Kenny Washington? I dunno, the whole things seems a tad shallow to me, a little too clever for it’s own good.

8. Can this be anyone but the late Albert Mangelsdorff? This sounds as if it dates from the late 1960’s.

9. I think this is Clarence (Gene) Shaw, from one of his Argo albums, most likely Carnival Sketches. A lovely track. Richard Evans , bass.

10. Cole Porter’s Get Out of Town. The tuba threw me off at first. I’m thinking Arthur Blythe on alto.

11. The vibes player has certainly heard Bags, but then who hasn’t? Possibly Lem Winchester? Or maybe very early Bobby Hutcherson? The alto as a little off kilter in a nice sorta way, can’t recognize him.

12. In the mid 1960’s, just about every other jazz album had a track like this, and this one doesn’t seem to rise above the ordinary, at least to me. Solos are too short for anybody to get anything going, but then again, the whole idea was to get it played on jukeboxes. I do like the drummer, but the whole thing’s just a little too trite for me. Pucho & the Latin Soul Brothers maybe?

13. I’m pretty sure this is Chico Hamilton, possibly Conquistadores. The guitarist has some elements of Gabor Szabo, but I’m not so sure it’s him. I was a big fan at the time of the Hamilton groups with Charles Lloyd et al, but in the mid-60’s Chico’s music took a more commercial turn, and he lost me. This is fun to hear now, though. A nice upbeat ending to a fine and very challenging BFT, Stefan!

[Jim R]

Disc 2:

1. I recognize the tenor sound- Clifford Jordan. I have a lot of his recordings, but not this one. Not even sure I’ve ever heard this. I’m not too crazy about this piece- kind of frantic to my ears. I like Jordan’s solo the best.

2. Sounds like this comes from around the same era as track 1. Maybe a Muse or a Steeplechase date? Not my favorite style of jazz, but fairly enjoyable (moreso the arrangement than the solos in this case). Excellent musicianship, without a doubt.

3. Nice blues tune... sounds like a funky mid-to-late 60’s session. Nice trumpet solo. The alto gets off to kind of an odd start, but rebounds well. I don’t recognize anybody here... doesn’t knock me out, but it’s solid.

4. Wow, another pretty nice track that I don’t think I’ve ever heard. Jazz is so vast. I like the rhythm section on this right off the bat. Very tight and yet with a relaxed feel. The saxes sound good, but I dug the piano solo the most. Nice!

5. Nice hard-hitting (reminiscent of McCoy T) theme, but the unison lines sound a little sloppy in their execution. The tenor is feeling it... very Trane-like, but doesn’t really say much to me. I don’t like this trumpet solo- too helter skelter. Maybe that’s how it was intended, but I don’t care for it.

6. I’ve heard this tune, but perhaps not this version. Nice writing, and the head is played very skillfully (in contrast to the last track). I don’t really know my flute players well enough to recognize them, but this player strikes me as very modern/advanced (good). Nice piano solo too. This piece (the writing, that is) sounds like the 60’s to me upon first listen, but the recording may be later. I like the tenor’s sound on this- too bad he didn’t get a solo!

7. Hmm... nice soulful Bird-inspired alto, and a very tight group. Nice polished sound... this sounds like some veteran boppers. Great articulation by all concerned. I don’t think this is Stitt nor Donaldson... a little less bluesy/edgy. The pianist is right out of Bud... maybe Barry Harris? Really nice.

8. Well, I get a breather here, cuz I don’t have any clue. Reminds me at times of the early 70’s fusion era (the percussion is reminding me of some of the Les McCann/Eddie Harris stuff). No idea on the bone-ist. Not really my cup.

9. Nice groove on this. Tasty trumpet lines. I’m not too keen on long vamp-based stuff like this, though. I’d generally rather hear more melody/structure being built upon. Still, it’s very musical and well-executed. No idea who.

10. The tune is very familiar... Get Out Of Town, I think. This alto has chops and taste. And soul. I had a hunch (mainly from the group sound) that this might be Strozier on Steeplechase, and then I remembered that I own this.

11. This doesn’t really ring any bells for me, but I like it. Great arrangement- the rhythm section sounds great. I’m not too crazy about the alto solo, but overall this is a nice track. Rhythmically, this reminds me of a track from one of Pat Martino’s Prestige albums... not that that’s necessarily helpful or directly related... maybe it’s from the same era?

12. This is tired, to my ears. That mid-60’s funky beat is so dated... doesn’t work for me anymore (never really did, actually). Yikes, I almost thought I heard a quote from “Yakety Sax”. No, thanks.

13. The best thing about this for me is its energy. Other than that, I find it pretty weak. The guys egging on the guitarist (who does not impress me on this at all) really get annoying pretty quickly. Give it a rest!

Sorry to end on such a sour note, because overall this was a very interesting and enjoyable disc. Thanks for the ride, Stefan.

[Alexander Hawkins]

1. Great track! Very interesting head. Nice instrumentation, and the rhythm section has a beautiful feel. The piano player is ALL OVER IT. Wow, who is it? Don't recognise the tenor or trumpet, but they both have nice nice tones. The latter's is LARGE. Nice bari as well - not obvious playing. I feel like I'd certainly know him if I were to hear him again.

Damn, this piano player...He's heard his Bud Powell. He's got that extraordinary intensity - almost scary in places. And the left hand! No bullshit here - it's rhythm, and thick, deliberate voicing. Nothing tentative or impressionistic here. Beautiful player.

I'm all over this once I discover what to buy!

2. Not exactly hit between the eyes by the drum intro...I take it it's the piano player's date? He's got those Coltrane diminished runs down...Don't like the tune. The tempo change are a little facile to my ears. Don't know the trumpet player. Might it be Woody Shaw? Don't like that soprano tone, although in fairness, I don't think it's that wonderfully recorded. Don't like the bass sound either. Sorry to be a bit negative on this track (I'm still reeling from the opener ).

3. Interesting head! Sort of Mingus'y, but more convntional BN-ish hard bop thrown in. There's something slightly crazy about proceedings, which is nice. I like the melodic approach of the trumpeter. Blimey, what is that instrument? Alto? Individual, for sure. If the alto were a bowed instrument [sic] it would sound like this.

4. [Don't like the recorded sound at all, incidentally.] Interesting frontline sound - that bari cuts through just right. And the baritone solo is nice too! I don't know what to make of the piano player...I'm not that sympathetic to his concept, although there's some nice stuff for sure.

5. Some impressive drumming here, and a nice solo entrance by the trumpeter. I enjoy this track for sure, but it doesn't really get me.

6. The tune sounds like one which should be very familiar. I don't go for the group sound...some solid drumming though. And the transition into swing - well - one of the oldest tricks in the book I guess, but that's because it's so damn good! The flautist's solo is nice, actually. I wish they could have bolted on a more interesting head! There's a very dilute Dolphy influence, I think.

7. How many takes did it take to get this head??? Nice playing. Tristano school is a definite influence, I'd have said, but there are 'harder' touches there... Don't necessarily go for the altoist's tone, but his ideas are together, and (s)he's got a really interesting rhythmic conception. He's soloing on the tune, rather than simply the changes, and I like that! I like the piano player's touch. Very even - a la Tristano or Hampton Hawes. And it's a damn good solo too. I'm certainly keen to find out what this is.

8. More multiphonics here on the trombone. As per disc 1 - I assume it's the same player/date - it's technically extremely accomplished. Aesthetically? I don't know. Don't like the piano solo here...at all...That solo cadenza by the trombonist is actually excruciating. Sorry! Maybe I'm not in the mood - I'll listen to this one again later

9. Nice sound to the clave - although I don't like the way the kit is tuned. Trumpet player leave me a bit cold. I'm not terribly keen on the highly-amplified bass sound, either. Cool cowbell playing, though. Seriously!

10. A saxophonist with serious chops. More chops than ideas? That might be a bit cruel, but it's not really doing it for me. Sounds to me like he needs to be stretched more. He's far more interesting at (what sound like) his limits. Nice touch having the tuba in there - works well for me. Both trumpet and piano are efficient, but neither really gets me going.

11. A slightly nuts vamp! It's a bit hectic, but quite cool all the same. Not overly keen on the tune which is overlayed. Alto is great - reminds me of Sonny Red, but the sound of the rest of the ensemble makes me doubt if it actually is him. Interesting. Piano - yeah, I'm warming to it, actually! Mirrors the tune nicely in his breaks.

12. Drumming is a bit heavy handed, and again, sounds like it could have been recorded in the bath! Nice horn sound. Not a subtle arrangement. Soloists are reasonably interesting, but couldn't put a name on them! I like the short solo as a concept - players are often so much more interesting where they aren't self-indulgent. Tune is somehow slightly reminiscent of the Alligator Bogaloo. No idea what it might be, though.

13. Technically pretty awesome drumming (listen to that cymbal go). Don't know about the feel on this one...gets more appealing as it goes on actually! I really like this, in fact. No idea what it might be, but I'd be curious to hear more.

Thanks again. Track one was revelatory. THAT PIANO PLAYER!!!!!!! DAMN!!!!!!!

Edit: Aha - Muhal! It's plain WRONG that a guy can be such an awesome free player, and play bop like that. Really shows the kinship between the 'styles', if there even is a valid divide.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Red

[Alexander Hawkins]

FWIW, the passage of a week hasn't mellowed me on Muhal's piano playing on this one. Awesome stuff.

[mikeweil]

So this is the real place for my guesses ....

Thanks Stefan, for putting up with so many inconveniencies as far as postal disc delivery is concerned. The game is mostly over and the answers to disc 1 are posted while I listen to it and write this, but I resisted peeking at them or the others' guesses, so here are my two cents:

Track 1: Somehow that first tenor soloist reminds me of Clifford Jordan, but I'm not sure .... I like the theme with it's existentialistic (that's what I like to call this) touches. I listened to a lot of this stuff when it was new (in the 1970's), but somehow lost interest since then. The unrest it displays is a little hard for me to bear, especially with the pianist. Energetic, but a little too uneven for my taste, overall.

Track 2: Woody Shaw's group? More tynerish piano. Excellent soprano. Could well be Victor Lewis on drums, from the way he interacts with the soloists.

Track 3: I might have heard this record ..... well I'm not that sure. There are few jazz waltzes like this. Who is this - very interesting. Clearly a product of the early 1960's I'd say. I'll probably slap my forehead when I read the names of these players ..... How nice to hear a bass without a pickup!

Track 4: Who's on baritone? I like him best from this group. So much music I never heard ...

Track 5: I find this one a little unsettled, rhythmically, and I hear a lot of standard licks that were common in that style in the 1970's, starting with the Tynerish chords of the pianist and the trumpet fluffs I hear in about every soloist of that era, to the insensitive bangy snare drum sound. Of course that's just me, I have simply listened to so much of that kind of thing in that time that I find it hard to listen to that any longer - so much unrest ....

Track 6: That flutist sounds familiar and is very competent. Nice Latin inflected theme, well done. Curious who this is. The busy character of the flutist is nicely balanced by the rest of the group playing more steadily. I should be able to name that pianist ....

Track 7: This should be from the West Coast. Some very fluent alto soloist I'm sure I have somewhere in my collection. But he gets a little repetitive, which is unavoidable at that tempo. Is that Claude Williamson on piano? At the risk of sounding some wrong chords I'd say these are white guys, FWIW. I'd like to hear them do other tempos.

Track 8: Albert Mangelsdorff was my initial thought. But he did much more subtle things with multiphonics and wouldn't have used such a rhythm section. Too brassy for Albert. This is the kind of rhythm section I don't like - not really together, and some strange bass sound. Too much force.

Track 9: I can't help it, I hate these 1970's to 1980's bass pickups. Nice concept for a tune, but the drummer plays with too much force. I prefer them more elegant, subtle and refined. Horrible tom sound. Is that a pocket trumpet?

Track 10: Now this strikes me some. Very interesting alto, the tuba as a bass instrument gives a nice touch, and the drummer has the inner calmness one needs to play such grooves. I know Threadgill did a lot with tuba, but I don't know his music enough to recognize him. "You don't know what love is" - somehow I like this.

Track 11: Now this is unrestfull, too, but I love vibes. Is this the Emil Richards tune, "Bliss"? At least this uses the similar changes and the same rhythmic concept. But I doubt this is him playing.

Track 12: This sounds terribly familiar, but on second listen, no, I didn't have this. Would have liked this a lot in the 1970's, but find it a little sloppy now, but it's quite nice. They tried hard to capitalize on Eddie Harris's groove tunes. It's very danceable, for sure.

Track 13: I still hate bass pickups ..... well ..... I know that guitar picker ...... but ...... they try a little hard ..... I heard Chico Hamilton play that drum pattern with that trick roll on the ride cymbal ..... take us home brothers ...... take it easy, brother drummer ..... nice closer.

So much music unknown to me ...... thanks for an interesting ride through 1960's and 1970's jazz (that's what I think) .....

[mikeweil]

10. FRANK STROZIER: Remember Me (SteepleChase)

"Get Out of Town"

Danny Moore

Howard Johnson

Harold Mabern

Lisle Atkinson

Michael Carvin

Arrgh ..... I have that LP .... but haven't played it for quite some time.

[randyhersom]

I listened to both disks a few times each. I have to admit I was doing other things too. One tune jumped out at me - Ted Curson's Quicksand. I didn't think it was the Tears for Dolphy version but I managed not to realize it was from one of my all time favorites - The Trio. I also heard a theme I thought I recognized as Trane and jumped to the conclusion that it was Joe Lovano doing Central Park West. Oops. Nice hard bop groove through most of it. Very enjoyable. (excuses, excuses) If I wasn't getting my own BFT together I might have been able to give it more attention.