Are you self taught or do you have/had a teacher?

[JSngry]

The true artist learns how to incorporate their sucking into their style.

I made it work for me.

Well, that was a joke, obviously (I hope...), but there is something to be said for knowing your instrument well enough to know what you can't do (and more to the point, have no interest in ever doing) & then going about finding out how to work what you can to as expressively as possible. Then when you find something that you just can't express with what you have you can proceed to learn whatever it is you need to learn to do it.

All this is predicated on a sound basic knowledge of both instrument and theory, mind you, and should not be taken as advocating sloppiness or laziness. But I do think that a problem arises when people accquire more chops than they know what to meaningfully do with. You get cats that are "all dressed up with noplace to go", as the old folks used to say.

This was less of a problem when playing opportunities were available every 20 feet or so, but now that the main regular playing opportunities are in school for most folks, the possibility of knowledge outpacing wisdom is more real.

And that's not a "problem", really, it's just something you gotta watch out for, I think. But if there's nobody arond to call you on it...

Anyways...I'm both formally and self-taught. I can read and write (and can even cipher!), both fairly well, although there's certainly room for improvement in both areas. I was formally taught the correct way to play an instrument, as well as the proper rules of theory. Invaluable experience. I taught myself how to get sounds that didn't follow any of those rules. Ditto. But the most valuable learning came (and still comes) from playing with people who are on the same page as you esthetically and can kick your ass into challenging yourself. That's the real learning afaic, and that's neither "formal" nor "self" education. That's life!

[Robert J]

I think there are many ways to study to become a musican.

Most children make some musical discovery early on - spoons on a pot or the table, being conscious of the sound of your voice, pulling on a stretched elastic band, etc. That's the initial joy of making the music. We all became 'students' that way when we became aware of different ways to make sound.

Many of our parents made us take music lessons, or if older, it was our own choice. Or we did it on our own. Still, as suggested above, it's hard to be completely self taught. I learned lots from recordings and watching live music - but I was taught it indirectly. It wasn't from a teacher I went to on a weekly basis.

I'd say I bumbled into the whole situation out of a love for sound, and then for specific music.

Some highlights of my childhood 'lessons'

* Learning "zip a dee doo da" on my dad's pump organ at age 7.

* Disappointing my mother and teacher after 2 years of classical piano lessons at age 11.

* Not playing piano at all for 2 years

* Being shown by my dad how to read guitar chord symbols to fake left hand bass in pop sheet music at age 13

* discovering some records from dad's small but helpful jazz LP collection at age 14 - Oscar Peterson, MJQ, and Ramsey Lewis.

* Seeing Sun Ra and Kirk Lightsey at age 15 (but also Spryo Gyra and Weather Report)

* Lessons one summer with Matt Michaels, head of jazz program, Wayne State

They all contributed. I think the last entry helped me see the discipline angle. Matt asked me to do certain things (learn in all keys) and practice for certain hours a day. I thought he was kidding. He had high expectations and was just showing me what it takes. Unfortunately I didn't have it in me then to rise to that challenge. In fact, I'm still working on it!

For me, becoming a real student has only happened over a long period of time, and it will continue. This past November I attended Barry Harris' weekend workshop and now have enough to keep me busy for about 2 years!

[7/4]

The true artist learns how to incorporate their sucking into their style.

I made it work for me.

Well, that was a joke, obviously (I hope...), but there is something to be said for knowing your instrument well enough to know what you can't do (and more to the point, have no interest in ever doing) & then going about finding out how to work what you can to as expressively as possible. Then when you find something that you just can't express with what you have you can proceed to learn whatever it is you need to learn to do it.

I'm not a Jazz musican, I'm a minimalist composer. I just try to play Jazz everyday to try to keep my chops together on the guitar. And I can't really play Jazz. It's not working to well today. I just saw two episodes of Surface and a re-run of Friends. Next up is re-runs of Family Guy.

But I do have a string qt. that I have to notate and some more solo microtonal gtr music.

Miles made the best from less, he wasn't Dizzy. (Not that I would really know)

...and back to you Jim.

[7/4]

I'm not a Jazz musican, I'm a minimalist composer. I just try to play Jazz everyday to try to keep my chops together on the guitar. And I can't really play Jazz. It's not working to well today. I just saw two episodes of Surface and a re-run of Friends. Next up is re-runs of Family Guy.

Scratch that. I've seen these episodes of Family Guy. Maybe I'll restring the classical.

[Rosco]

But the most valuable learning came (and still comes) from playing with people who are on the same page as you esthetically and can kick your ass into challenging yourself. That's the real learning afaic, and that's neither "formal" nor "self" education. That's life!

It was going to those same jazz workshop and playing with guys who couldn't put a solo together but could read the shit out of the dots that forced me to come to grips with notation.

Here's an example of what I mean by an 'intuitive' understanding of music, with regards to rhythm. I come across guys who count rhythm- beats, bars. If they're taking a 16 bar rest, you'll see them actually counting off the bars. If they're playing a note on the 'and' of 2 you'll see them counting the 1-and-2 before it. I've never done any of that. Coming from an 'untutored' angle, I developed- had to develop- a feel for where the rhythms were. Never counted bars- hell, when I first started playing I didn't know what a bar was, much less how to count them. I developed a way of feeling the rhythms- hard to explain but everything I heard I processed as part of 'the dance'. One of the upshots of this is that I am not troubled by less common time signatures. Again, when I started out I didn't know what a time signature was- but I 'felt' 5/4 or 7/8 just the same way as I 'felt' 4/4. At first I couldn't understand why people had problems playing in those rhythms. Same with the structure of tunes- I often play with people who get lost in an AABA or an ABAC or an ABCD- fuck, even a twelve bar blues (!)- once they lose themselves on the page and can't find their way back in. I'm always telling players to 'feel' where they are in the tune- listen to and feel the expansion and contraction of the chords and it'll lead you back to where you started. These things seem obvious to me but it amazes me how little these basic elements are dealt with in formal teaching.

[AllenLowe]

I'm with Jim on this one - though I never took FORMAL lessons, my teachers were on the turntable:

Ornette Coleman, Charlie Parker, Sonny Rollins, Charlie Haden, Bud Powell, Booker Ervin, Dave Schildkraut, Monk, Charles Mingus - that's a good faculty - from age 14 to age 17 I listened to jazz maybe 4-6 bours a day (almost every day) - than I sat down at the piano and read a lot of lead sheets. I've taken the best piece of educational advice from Von Freeman: "Learn your chords and suffer."

[Epithet]

Lots of recommendations for Hindemith's Elementary Training for Musicians, I see.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm self taught and had a shitload of teachers.

[brownie]

Chuck is my teacher!

Glad to see him back here

[.:.impossible]

I just made a purchase on amazon last night. This book has been recommended to me by other vibists and I finally decided it would be a good idea to start looking at it. Hopefully it won't focus too much on grip, since I was taught a different grip than the Burton grip that Saindon uses.

Here's another book that I work out of from time to time, less so now than a few years ago.

[.:.impossible]

I've taken the best piece of educational advice from Von Freeman: "Learn your chords and suffer."

Allen, I've been thinking about this phrase for the past few days. Can you explain to me what it means to you?

Thanks!

[Jazz Kat]

I just made a purchase on amazon last night. This book has been recommended to me by other vibists and I finally decided it would be a good idea to start looking at it. Hopefully it won't focus too much on grip, since I was taught a different grip than the Burton grip that Saindon uses.

Here's another book that I work out of from time to time, less so now than a few years ago.

Stick controls a bitch. Look who wrote it... no wonder. That's a great book. It'll give you a workout.

I'm self taught at drums, and vibes. I took piano lessons for 5 years, then taught myself organ technique.

[Shawn]

I had one formal guitar lesson in 1986, I learned how to tune it. From there I picked stuff up from friends that dabbled in guitar, I found that I was able to fairly easily improve on the things they taught. I was living in a rural area at the time and there really weren't any guitar teachers.

I attempted to learn to read music but just could NOT get my head around it. Years later I took a class in music theory at college (it was a required course for my major). I just b-a-r-e-l-y passed that class..."with a little help from my friends".

However, back in '86 I bought a year subscription to both Guitar and Guitar World and taught myself tablature. For some reason tab presented no difficulty whatsoever and I quickly began to learn little bits and pieces of songs. Eventually I got to the point where I didn't need the magazines anymore and I would just jam with a CD. I discovered that I picked things up by ear very naturally, I might not be able to tell you what chords I was playing, but I could play the chords. Which I believe is the point, correct?

22 years later I'm a much better musician...but I still couldn't tell the difference between Lydian and Lysol and the only Dorian I'm familiar with is a dude with a painting that ages for him.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Shawn

[7/4]

My jazz thing is doing a hell of a lot better these days.