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mgraham333

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Wow!

Can't quite keep up with their release schedule of late though ... still don't have the Chubby Jackson or Gryce or Christian or their Dexter disc, nor the Coles/Wess ... had to get the Jacquet/Parker and Pres as they were released. Guess I have some shopping to do there!

Also still missing the McGhee ... here's the back-cover w/details:

upcd27782779bk.jpg

Has this been out previously? On that old Tristano/Mosac/whatever label? What's it called again?

Tristano's label was "Jazz Records" - don't think this has been previously released on this label (live Birdland 49, Toronto 52 & Half Note 58)

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Okay, thx - it also says in bold print "All tracks previously unreleased" and since Carol T. and Popkin were involved, I guess that's correct ... so DOH! (And that should have been "Mosca" of course, not "Mosac" - sorry).

I've not yet been able to grab all those Jazz Records (quite an imaginative way to name a label, isn't it?) by Tristano, guess I should. "Birdland '49" (with some lacky info, if I remember right?) is the only one I have.

Looks pretty darn good though!

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Important music, decent enough sound. As fine as Warne and Lee are here at their best, my recollection is that the most striking solo work is Tristano's. It adds a good deal to what we have of him, especially in a more or less "blowing" context. Dennis is not where he would be by the time of that Ronnie Ball date, but it hardly matters.

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I have many Tristano recordings, but get stumped when people refer to the Tristano "school", which I take it is not just the musicians who studied with him, but of a particular philosophy or concept or approach to music (similar to but different than Ornette's harmolodics). Without my reading books on Tristano, could someone here summarize this "school" in a few sentences? Does this refer to the in-tandem playing of the saxophonists over a steady backbeat, or is there more involving a philosophy regarding harmonies? Remember, I fall asleep easily, so please keep it pithy. :)

Edited by mjzee
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Without my reading books on Tristano, could someone here summarize this "school" in a few sentences?

I think there was a Tristano school, but I won't get bent out of shape if anyone disagrees.

Some characteristics:

"Line" over "lick" - improvisation should be melodic invention, not common-property licks that fall under the fingers.

Use of a relatively small body of standard chord changes. Supposedly, improvising over changes the musicians know inside out and upside down will result in more real invention than trying to blow over unusual changes - that often results in "running the changes" instead of improvising melodies.

Elimination of elements which are "easy" - easily-grasped, superficially satisfying elements of the music, like bombastic drumming, rhythmically repeating notes a la Illinois Jacquet, using "obvious" effects, etc. are to be avoided.

The bass and drums should play a strictly time-keeping role, to allow the soloist to accent his line in a complex manner. (Tristano's and Marsh's accents are pretty wild.)

Once the changes are familiar, the chords can be extended into some pretty complex forms.

Melody has primacy over excitement. Which pretty much sums it up.

This is all off the top of my head, so maybe it's bullshit.

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Indeed!

For a contrast to "bebop", both were at root about transcending the imposed confines of one's immediate reality, but the cool thing about Tristano-ism is that it recognizes that although everybody wants to get to more or less the same place, unless you're honest about where it is you're starting from, you'll never really get there, you'll just end up in a more elaborate disguise. Thus the emphasis on Bird and Bach, learning Pres as literally as possible and not sanctioning any imitation, the denial of emotion in search of feeling, because for some/many folks, emotion is a reactive response to a manipulation, whereas feeling is what you have no matter what. Or would hope to have.

Do I believe that myself? Some days yes, some days, not so much. But I never disbelieve it, if you know what I mean.

Now, for me, Lennie was a classic case of somebody who led the way but very seldom got there, maybe because he was so rigid in his doctrines, even/especially with himself and about himself. Warne, hell, Warne was a genius, period, and its revealing that once he realized his full genius, he sorta disavowed (or something) the Tristano doctrines. But not until (talk about something that's more probably a lot more complicated that that...). Lee, hell, Lee's a genius too, but he went his own way relatively early on and not everybody appreciated him finding his own voice like that, although that was the alleged object of the game in the first place.

People will sometimes (thank god nowhere near as reflexively as they used to) call this stuff "cold", but hell, ice can burn you just like fire can, ok?

Like the kids say, it's complicated. But hell, you gotta live your life somehow, right?

Having said all that, I don't really know the Ronnie Ball session with Willie Dennis, but I can't say I've ever heard him (Dennis) sound overtly "Tristanoish". Will this upcoming release show some of that?

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Thanks to y'all, especially Jeff and Jim, for your quick, incisive responses. That kinda confirms to me what I've been hearing. I need more listening to Konitz and Marsh, Marsh especially because he plays in such an understated, diffident way - if you don't really tune your ears to him, what he's playing will just elude you.

It's funny that my favorite Tristano so far is the quartet date with Konitz, Ramey and Taylor at the Confucius Room. Especially interesting for me is that 1) my favorite tracks are the ones that Tristano left in the can, and 2) the overall feel of the date is a good club workout, and I attribute the feel to Ramey and Taylor. They keep things tight but loose, and they allow Tristano and Konitz to sound tight but loose. Never underestimate a good rhythm section.

I worked with a guy named John Baier, who was a pianist from Michigan and who knew all the Detroit cats from the late '40's. He moved to NYC in the mid-to-late '50's, and I think tried to make it as a musician but eventually settled down to a day job and family life. He told me that he used to jam with other musicians, and one day played with some Tristano-ites. He found it a strange experience; he called off a tune to play, but they just said "we don't play those tunes."

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Having said all that, I don't really know the Ronnie Ball session with Willie Dennis, but I can't say I've ever heard him (Dennis) sound overtly "Tristanoish". Will this upcoming release show some of that?

By the time of the Ball date (see below) Dennis was much more his own man and very good (he would get even better, though there isn't much recorded evidence). At the time of the Uptown performances, he was very Tristano-influenced, perhaps a la Don Ferrera -- i.e. trying to play nearly continuous saxophone-like lines on a brass instrument, and the trombone no less -- but most of time he really wasn't making it IMO. Nothing disastrous IIRC, just not making it.

Other long-line, saxophone-like trombone players in a similar bag -- all I think touched by Pres but probably not by Tristano -- were Earl Swope (though Swope did record with Tristano in 1945), Eddie Bert, and Jimmy Knepper:
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IIRC, Dennis is in good latter-day form on this Gary McFarland album, "Point of Departure," from 1963 (two years before Dennis' sadly early death in a car crash in Central Park):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_Departure_(Gary_McFarland_album)

Again IIRC he has a few nice spots on some Mulligan Concert Jazz Band recordings.

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I have that Jazz Mission To Moscow thing and he's fine there as well.

Listening to tha Ball thing, the thing that strikes me is how un-"Tristanoite" his tone and inflections are. Part of that is the nature of the trombone, but part of it seems to be him, like he was sipping the Kool-Aid but not fully drinking it, which, hey, that was probably t his credit, really. Lots of guys ended up "lost" in that world, if you know what i eman. Not that many really stood out as real individuals as much as they did as exceptional practitioners. Might have been the point of the whole thing, but...maybe not.

Again, it appears to have been complicated. Whenever I hear Ted Brown and Warne together and am not fully engaged, I keep thinking that Brown is Marsh - until Warne comes in, and then, DOH!. Should it really be that complicated? I guess it did, because it was. And Ted Brown has survived and remained true to much good end.

But - hello this is not anybody but Warne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8tooBgB7sg

And when Lennie was in his zone and really flowing like he is here on the 1964 stuff...whoa...

Hello Lee.

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Yes, Dennis' phrasing and tone did get looser/more personal in later years. The idea of playing in a Tristano-ish manner on the trombone sounds very daunting to me. Heck, playing in that manner on the trumpet was pretty daunting to Don Ferrara, though he certainly had his moments. So did the Swedish trumpeter Jan Allan, who I'm pretty sure was captivated by Tristano-style music, as many Swedish jazzmen were in the '50s, including Allan's frontline partner here, the late great altoist Rolf Billberg:

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Yes, Dennis' phrasing and tone did get looser/more personal in later years. The idea of playing in a Tristano-ish manner on the trombone sounds very daunting to me. Heck, playing in that manner on the trumpet was pretty daunting to Don Ferrara, though he certainly had his moments. So did the Swedish trumpeter Jan Allan, who I'm pretty sure was captivated by Tristano-style music, as many Swedish jazzmen were in the '50s, including Allan's frontline partner here, the late great altoist Rolf Billberg:

Coincidcentally, those past few days I've pulled out my 1961/1962 copies of ORKESTER JOURNALEN to read up on some first-hand info on the jazz happenings of those times, and the July/August 1962 issue had a piece about the "Tristano clan" where this was said about Willie Dennis:

"The only brass players in that company were trombonist Willie Dennis and trumpeter Don Ferrara. Dennis' only recording in the Tristano idiom is on an LP from 1955 where he is part of a group led by Ronnie Ball. His playing is so engaging that it seems unfathomable that he later preferred to work with Charlie Mingus' Jazz Workshop. But maybe this was triggered by economical reasons. When the abovementioned record was released it never received any particular recomendations by American critics. Nevertheless it contains music that ought to be reason enough for quite a bit more renown just for the soloists' work. Among the best is Ted Brown's "Little Quail", a medium-tempo melody.The recording is nine minutes long and provides rightfully liberal solo space that goes with the material's quality. Here we find Dennis' best solo, an astonishing experience in its own way. Despite his rather relaxed playing, his phrasing in places is rather distinct and it is surprising that he has not been given more attention among the "name" trombonists."

Some DID take notice back then. ;)

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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Mingus was indeed pretty commercial ;) (hey, I know it's not you who said that!).

Always interesting for a late-born to see contemporary viewpoints. Obviously the connection (or is that just in my head?) between early Mingus (pre "Pithecantropus" or maybe pre Bohemia) and the Tristano orbit escaped this writer completely.

But yeah, Willie Dennis and Ted Brown ought to be heard!

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I suppose what he meant was that Mingus got a lot more publicity (for whatever reason ...) and may have been established better in the "insiders' circles". "Commercial" can be a very relative term you know ... ;)

Anyway ... I guess I finally need to search for "All About Ronnie" again. It escaped me when 2001 had that run of Japanese Savoy reissue CDs in their stores in the early 2000s at giveaway prices and all the copies I have seen since were just beyond reasonable in their pricing. As if that platter had become some sort of undergorund cult item since ...

As for any possible connections, you invariably make them up entirely in your own head and go with what you assimilate in your own personal listening experiences. I don't think to today's jazz ears Tristano is THAT daunting anymore anyway ... I, for example, find Tristano's Savoy Oct. 23, 1947 session (Supersonic/On A Planet/Air Pocket/Celestia) extremely accessible and appealing for its light, airy "vibe", probably also due to its melodic base. In fact a number of years ago I made up a cassette tape for summer, sunshine car driving where that session was mixed with the likes of the mid-40s George Barnes' Octet etc. (Now some may fault me for not listening closely enough if I digest Tristano that easily but hey, why try to find rocks in your way where there ain't? :D )

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Speaking of Willie Dennis, there were at least two other rather saxophone-like (probably inspired in part by Lester Young) trombonists who preceded him by a bit -- Earl Swope and Eddie Bert. Swope in fact recorded with Tristano and tenor man Emmett Carls in 1946. Also, FWIW, I believe that Bert said that one his key influences was Trummy Young.

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Speaking of Willie Dennis, there were at least two other rather saxophone-like (probably inspired in part by Lester Young) trombonists who preceded him by a bit -- Earl Swope and Eddie Bert. Swope in fact recorded with Tristano and tenor man Emmett Carls in 1946. Also, FWIW, I believe that Bert said that one his key influences was Trummy Young.

A propos your comment on Earl Swope probably having been influenced by Lester Young, I'll just mention that he recorded with Pres on one of the 1956 Washington, D.C. recordings.

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