johnagrandy Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) Might turn into a rather interesting (and contentious) topic ... What is your pick for the single Blakey Messengers album (not single composition) that contains the greatest overall trumpet work ? I don't mean the best overall Messengers album that contains amazing trumpet ... ... but the single Messengers album that contains the greatest overall trumpet work. Extremely tough question (in my opinion) because: 1. so many possible recordings ... how many have even listened to them all ? 2. almost every latter-half 20th century great on the horn was a Messenger 3. the best Messenger on trumpet overall might not be the one with the best single recording (as defined above) 4. the high-energy, showmanship, and flamboyence of many of the young greats when they joined Art can possibly trick the mind ... (or maybe not) 5. could be one of the lesser-known players ... it's possible ! I tend to write a lot of words ... so (for now) I'll just give my #1: Freddie Hubbard on Free For All But it was really really close and really really tough to choose Freddie over my main man Lee. And despite listening to Blakey all day, I still don't feel all that confident about my pick. Edited February 11, 2006 by johnagrandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I would have to agree with 'Free For All', just on the strength of Freddie's playing on the title track alone. The playing on 'Mosaic' and 'Buhaina's Delight' would run it pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 As you point out, apples and oranges to an extent. As for a personal favourite (and my knowledge is far from extensive), I'll go for Clifford Brown at Birdland. IMHO, 'Once in a While' is one of the great recorded ballad performances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 i understand how you can jump right to free for all with hotshot new trumpter f. hubbard but lee morgan deserves the most credit of all. he even left the band and came back in '65 when it was a whole new machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) I would have to agree with 'Free For All', just on the strength of Freddie's playing on the title track alone. The playing on 'Mosaic' and 'Buhaina's Delight' would run it pretty close. What makes it so tough to decide is you hear something like Indestructible , which isn't a high-energy album like Free For All or A Night In Tunisia, but has a bit of an unusual theme through most of the numbers: call it exotic, foreign, mysterious, restlessness finding restfulness or sometimes just gotta keep travellin' on into the unknown ... I don't know exactly how to put it -- but there's a definite common theme to many of the pieces (just like "Free For All" has this high-powered message of strength in the unity of pursuit of freedom that can not be ignored) .... ... and on most of the numbers, Lee's consistently doing this very interesting thing: these innovative lines with all the trademark motifs, plus the general Morgan pattern: the understated overstatements back and forth and forth and back on each other, the trick half-valves and bends and slurs and all the funky stuff that gave him such a rhythmic groove (well, at least some of that stuff) ... but at the same time he's always stayin' within the theme, within what the band's doing as a synergistic unit, within the center of the musical message -- which is what Blakey's music was all about. Of course, later, under his own leadership, and jazz in general, Lee would go much further in this modal (if you want to use a musical rather than a thematic term) direction [e.g. The Gigolo , Search For A New Land , etc.] -- but we're talkin' Blakey in '64 here). Lee doesn't find the realm of the sublime here, like he would later, but we see him lay down those tracks to be followed. Edited February 11, 2006 by johnagrandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 something like Indestructible , which isn't a high-energy album like Free For All or A Night In Tunisia I would beg to diiffer. The tempos might not be as bright, but the energy is at least as high, if not higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Kenny Dorham set the standard for the Jazz Messengers trumpet playing. The albums he recorded with the JM (Horace Silver and the Jazz Messengers, The Jazz Messengers at Café Bohemia) have yet to be surpassed! And I love Lee Morgan! KD ruled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 something like Indestructible , which isn't a high-energy album like Free For All or A Night In Tunisia I would beg to diiffer. The tempos might not be as bright, but the energy is at least as high, if not higher. Well, who knows, for me they're two totally different albums. I find Freddie a viscerally more exciting player than Lee but that might be because I saw him live so many times ... but I've never seen jazz reviews on Amazon like the ones for Free For All ... ... words and phrases like "blazing" "volcanic" "fury" "tears it up" "fire" "melted down" "shreds" "bursting at the seam" "melting" "thunderous" "H bombs" "meltdown" "intense" "Jesus F*****g Christ" ... You don't see that much emotion in most Amazon jazz reviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzmessenger Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I also like Freddie on "Free For All" a lot, but I am not sure that is the greatest trumpet album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I also like Freddie on "Free For All" a lot, but I am not sure that is the greatest trumpet album. So what's your choice? It's the toughest question. Imagine if I asked the same question for sax. 100% identical responses. Which do you like more? Hub's improv on "Free For All" or on "The Core" ? "Free For All" IS Freddie ... but I think it's a better construction on "The Core" ... well, that one is his tune. How could Hub be 25 at the time ... mind-boggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) There is nothing more memorable than Lee Morgan's solo on "Moanin'"! All of the fire on "Free For All" can be directly attibuted to Bu's intensity. I think they all got a shot if inspiration from him that day. It's really a live performance, in the studio, and Art was, let's say, rather loose that day. Wayne's solo is so hot! Edited February 11, 2006 by marcello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) When I first bought it I didn't read the liner notes or anything and I thought it was live because someone (Bu?) was yellin' stuff at the soloists ! But which Moanin', the final take or the alternate take they included in the RVG remaster (recorded a few weeks earlier I think) ? (And as good as that Lee solo is, it can't touch The Gigolo. That's a fucking masterpiece.) Edited February 11, 2006 by johnagrandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 John, I have to agree with you about Freddie on "Free For All", what a powerful, emotionally charged performance. But, I think its important not to forget the other important contributions of Lee Morgan (Moanin', A Night in Tunisia) Clifford Brown, and Kenny Dorham, in the Messengers canon. I would also add that Wynton's playing is very strong on the "Keystone 3" album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 Art was, let's say, rather loose that day. Now if you want to hear a really "loose" Blakey, check out "Nihon Bashi" on Kyoto. WHOA! And hey, no discussion of great Blakey performances, trumpet-centric or not, is complete w/o a serious consideration of the 5/13/61 Olympia gig released on RTE/Trema/etc. That's "HOLY SHIT!" material if ever there was any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeCity Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I can go with Freddie on "Free For All" as well. But we're really just trying to determine who runs a distant second place to the most important trumpeter ever to grace an Art Blakey recording: Mr. Woody Shaw!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 I have to go along with Brownie's pick. Kenny Dorham on the Bohemia albums has to be my personal first choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 (edited) I have to go along with Brownie's pick. Kenny Dorham on the Bohemia albums has to be my personal first choice. Yup! Not necessarily one that I would choose on any given day, but this one set the standard for what followed. No KD, no Lee, no Freddie, nobody!!! Edited February 12, 2006 by Big Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 For "music" I select KD, for "trumpet playing" I select LM. BFD. The end result (notice I did not say profit) is music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 For "music" I select KD, for "trumpet playing" I select LM. BFD. I'm not sure I get the distinction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 For "music" I select KD, for "trumpet playing" I select LM. BFD. I'm not sure I get the distinction... I think Lee is the better brass player, I think KD is the superior musical thinker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 Obviously no love for Hardman, Byrd, etc. Blakey made a bunch of records on other labels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 For "music" I select KD, for "trumpet playing" I select LM. BFD. I'm not sure I get the distinction... I think Lee is the better brass player, I think KD is the superior musical thinker. Got it (and agree)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnagrandy Posted February 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 I can go with Freddie on "Free For All" as well. But we're really just trying to determine who runs a distant second place to the most important trumpeter ever to grace an Art Blakey recording: Mr. Woody Shaw!!! Well that of course goes without saying. Not very far into this, but interesting nobody has mentioned any of the later brassmen: Wynton Marsalis, Valerie Ponomarev, Terence Blanchard ... I forget the rest. One thing I've noticed about Bill Hardman: he sure gets a lot of respect from his peers on the horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 Despite the strange pairing, Hardman's one reason I really like the Messengers/Monk LP on Atlantic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 [quote name='JSngry' And hey, no discussion of great Blakey performances, trumpet-centric or not, is complete w/o a serious consideration of the 5/13/61 Olympia gig released on RTE/Trema/etc. That's "HOLY SHIT!" material if ever there was any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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