Why do so many people hate Lonehill and other imports?

[robviti]

not to mention malcolm x's "by any means necessary."

[david weiss]

Yet it does raise the point - how many small American labels are going to have the incentive to reissue this stuff legitimately if the market's already been met by the thieves? I mean, yeah, we all say that we'll buy this stuff now and then buy it again when a legit version comes out, and we often/usually do. But for the cats on the business end, how do they know that we'll be willing to pay the price they need to get to keep afloat when we've already bought it for cheap from the pirates? I mean, is that Don Fagerquist side so badass that we'll buy it twice simply out of moral compunction?

Look - almost all (all?) of Lonehill's studio material is booted off of a legit source. If it's expensive and/or difficult to come by, better to get a burn off of somebody, keep it to yourself, and then buy it for the first time when it gets a legitimate, accesible reissue. Somebody will get around to it eventually if they think that there's a market for it that they can hit. All Lonehill, et al do is reduce the chances that that market will seem viable.

This and your subsequent posts are dead on. Where is Lonehill based (I don't own any)? If it's Spain, it illegal in every way but if it's Andorra then their copyright law is 35 years. I've had many arguments with Jordi Pujol about this over the years. He claims that the Andorrans are cousins of his and it's their company (they are just trying to follow in his footsteps) and his distribution company just distributes them. When the Mingus rip-off of the Uptown CD came out, I told him to remove it from his web-site because though he didn't put it out himself I thought it was in poor taste to sell it. We've had discussions about the copyright laws as well. I said though it's legal doesn't make it right and he just says it's legal for him so he does it. The 50 year law is not all of Europe. I believe it's 40 years in Italy but I could be wrong about this. I can say this about Jordi at least. He puts a lot of work into his re-issues and box sets. Most I believe are legit, some perhaps a little grey but his sincerity and the love he puts into his projects is real. He would never do lame re-issues like Lonehill or do a straight rip-off like the Mingus. He would want to do his own superior (in his mind at least) version of whatever he releases. That said, he has no problem selling all this other stuff. As for buying it, you can say you are depriving musicians of some pennies and should perhaps feel a little guilt. You are putting money into the pockets of someone who is potentially ripping off musicians but we're not talking about big money here. The best chance of seeing this stuff is if all the labels decide to make everything availible for download or perhaps if they continue to licence stuff. Other than that, I doubt Sony is preparing the Dave Bailey dates, they haven't released some Freddie Hubbard stuff (like Super Blue) that was prepared for release a few years ago.

[Fer Urbina]

This and your subsequent posts are dead on. Where is Lonehill based (I don't own any)? If it's Spain, it illegal in every way but if it's Andorra then their copyright law is 35 years. I've had many arguments with Jordi Pujol about this over the years. He claims that the Andorrans are cousins of his and it's their company (they are just trying to follow in his footsteps) and his distribution company just distributes them. When the Mingus rip-off of the Uptown CD came out, I told him to remove it from his web-site because though he didn't put it out himself I thought it was in poor taste to sell it. We've had discussions about the copyright laws as well. I said though it's legal doesn't make it right and he just says it's legal for him so he does it. The 50 year law is not all of Europe. I believe it's 40 years in Italy but I could be wrong about this

David, you're right on target when you ask where are these guys based. Disconforme/Definitive give a PO Box in Andorra, Lonehill say nothing. But even if they're based in Andorra, a year ago I sent an email to the Government of Andorra. They referred me to this (bold are mine):

ARTICLE 28 - Acts Requiring Authorization of Producers of Phonograms

(1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (2) and Article 32, the producer of a phonogram shall have the exclusive right to authorize any of the following acts:

(a) the direct or indirect reproduction of the phonogram, in any manner or form;

(b) the distribution of the phonogram and copies of it to the public by sale, rental, lending or by any other form of transferring property or possession;

© the making available to the public of their phonograms, by wire or wireless means, in such a way that members of the public may access them from a place and at a time individually chosen by them.

…

(3) The rights under paragraph (1) shall be protected from the making of the phonogram until the end of the fiftieth calendar year following the year of making. However, if a phonogram is lawfully published or lawfully communicated to the public within this period, the rights shall expire at the end of the fiftieth calendar year following the year when the first such an event takes place.

As for Italy, it is true that copyright law used to be different from country to country, and Italy was a very special case (some of the legal arrangements they used to have re copyright are... hilarious?), but today I'm fairly sure it is 50 years too, like in the rest of the EU.

As for Pujol (who, admittedly, has released some excellent sets) and his "cousins... following his footsteps", I wonder if it sometimes his "cousins" don't get too close for confort? (like in the "Complete Hal McKusick Recordings with Barry Galbraith...", which was allegedly lifted from 4 previously issued CDs, three of them reissued by Pujol himself, two for Spanish BMG, one for his own Fresh Sound label).

FWIW, Pujol is on record saying the following. What do his cousins make of it, I wonder:

Many CD labels today just copy from other CDs the material they use to release their own productions, if only because they think (?) the recordings are public domain. I hate that cheap argument. They just make CDs to get easy money. They have destroyed the record business with this way of thinking. They just fill the stores with hundreds of similar CDs, and confuse the customers. I do not have any kind of respect for these kinds of labels.

F

[Fer Urbina]

One last thing: this matter has been discussed many times without reaching any conclusion that actually works. To me, the main reason for this is that the current law just doesn't work: in the US stuff that shouldn’t be there keeps coming in; in the EU stuff that shouldn’t be reissued without permission keeps coming out. And in both cases, it is virtually impossible to trace the sources of a reissue.

The regular buyer will assume that what’s in mainstream shops is legal. Few of us will stop to consider previous reissues, sources, sometimes even sound quality. FWIW and speaking of mainstream, Disconforme/Definitive have been to the latest editions of MIDEM.

IMHO as long as the law is not actually applicable, we’ll only be able to pass moral judgment, which at the end of the day is pointless, a more complicated quagmire than it seems, and something I personally would rather not do.

F

[king ubu]

cousins, he he he!

when we interview Werner X. Uehlinger from Hat Hut Records, he confirmed that Lonehill was just yet another Pujol outfit... I guess he having an inside view at things should know... (and he then continued to confess having bought a Giuffre release on one of those labels, stating it was one that was no out on any other outfit...)

[king ubu]

The regular buyer will assume that what’s in mainstream shops is legal. Few of us will stop to consider previous reissues, sources, sometimes even sound quality. FWIW and speaking of mainstream, Disconforme/Definitive have been to the latest editions of MIDEM.

I've been to a store in Zurich yesterday that stocks many Lonehill & Gambit discs and they have *no*, but not the slightest of clues! They even believe actually that these "collectors' items" have been digitally remastered. They have no clue about the copy-protected CDs not actually being CDs, either. So what can you expect from the regular buyer? Nothing. People just don't know, salespersons in shops are clueless and couldn't care less, so your assessment is dead on, alas.

I am not one of those that categorically stays away from any Freshsound/Disconforme/Lonehill/whatever release (except for the RCA series [but aren't those the same ones as the French RCAs anyway?], I assume, and the FSNT series, it's all ... well, now how to put it? "morally illegal"?), but I'd *never* consider buying the rip-off Mingus or anything. But, for instance, if I didn't have the Buck Clayton Mosaic, I'd certainly go for the 3CD masters release on Definitive - where else to look for it?

[RDK]

when we interview Werner X. Uehlinger from Hat Hut Records, he confirmed that Lonehill was just yet another Pujol outfit... I guess he having an inside view at things should know... (and he then continued to confess having bought a Giuffre release on one of those labels, stating it was one that was no out on any other outfit...)

I'm curious. Would we have the same disdain for LoneHill if they did only release albums that weren't available any other way ("legally" or not) instead of the ones they obviously rip off?

[king ubu]

when we interview Werner X. Uehlinger from Hat Hut Records, he confirmed that Lonehill was just yet another Pujol outfit... I guess he having an inside view at things should know... (and he then continued to confess having bought a Giuffre release on one of those labels, stating it was one that was no out on any other outfit...)

I'm curious. Would we have the same disdain for LoneHill if they did only release albums that weren't available any other way ("legally" or not) instead of the ones they obviously rip off?

Well, as far as I understand, the whole fresh sound operations (only Fresh Sound New Talents excluded) is but a rip-off operation... so yes, it does make a difference, at least for me, since Fresh Sound has a lot of good and as far as I know not available elsewhere material in their catalogue.

I wonder, for instance: are the Dawn (reissued by Fresh Sound over here, I think taken care of by Biograph in the US, whatever kind of operation that is I have no idea) reissues legit? Because these are definitely great releases! But my guess is they're not legit nevertheless.

What's worth special for Lonehill (and Definitive) is the fact that they only have stuff out that is/was available elsewhere, and that they (in the case of Lonehill) disguise it in an often absurd way, too.

No "serious collector" can take Lonehill serious - otherwise he's but a joke!

[ejp626]

What's worth special for Lonehill (and Definitive) is the fact that they only have stuff out that is/was available elsewhere, and that they (in the case of Lonehill) disguise it in an often absurd way, too.

No "serious collector" can take Lonehill serious - otherwise he's but a joke!

Not to start a fight, but there are plenty of Lonehill CDs that aren't readily available elsewhere such as one I learned about today -- Hank Jones & Tyree Glenn. This is pretty obscure stuff. Just possibly there is Japanese import, but that would be it. If you mean that it was available at one time on an LP, well ok, but that doesn't qualify as available to me.

[king ubu]

What's worth special for Lonehill (and Definitive) is the fact that they only have stuff out that is/was available elsewhere, and that they (in the case of Lonehill) disguise it in an often absurd way, too.

No "serious collector" can take Lonehill serious - otherwise he's but a joke!

Not to start a fight, but there are plenty of Lonehill CDs that aren't readily available elsewhere such as one I learned about today -- Hank Jones & Tyree Glenn. This is pretty obscure stuff. Just possibly there is Japanese import, but that would be it. If you mean that it was available at one time on an LP, well ok, but that doesn't qualify as available to me.

No need to fight! I don't know the whole catalogue, but I keep stumbing over re-packaged discs here all the time... maybe the (badly equipped) stores here just stock those. Anyway, even an items such as their 2CD Buddy De Franco quartet is prob. a straight rip-off. The problem is not only on their side, but also on the side of the majors who don't feel obliged to release all the music they're sitting on, for sure. I don't have an ethical problem in buying some of these releases (though I have just one Lonehill relelased, Manny Albam's 2CD "Jazz Greats of our Time"), if they're not ripping off other small labels (see the Okratone Hank Jones above, or see Definitive's Mingus forties compilation), *but* if they would wanted to be taken seriously by "serious collectors", they should at least drop those items and only release things that are either OOP for some time, or have indeed not been on CD... (only then, the crappy sound quality problem enters again, since they won't be able/allowed to work on any original tapes with their methods...)

[ejp626]

I think the "fairest" would be if the majors opened up everything in the vaults to digital download, then the items that did the best sales would be issued on CD from time to time. Not expecting it, but that's a model I could definitely support.

[brownie]

Well, as far as I understand, the whole fresh sound operations (only Fresh Sound New Talents excluded) is but a rip-off operation... so yes, it does make a difference, at least for me, since Fresh Sound has a lot of good and as far as I know not available elsewhere material in their catalogue.

I wonder, for instance: are the Dawn (reissued by Fresh Sound over here, I think taken care of by Biograph in the US, whatever kind of operation that is I have no idea) reissues legit? Because these are definitely great releases! But my guess is they're not legit nevertheless.

Ubu, you're royally wrong about Fresh Sound. They have straightened their operation since their vinyl bootlegging days.

What they reissue nowadays is legit. They even have the full support of many of the musicians they reissue rare albums from which is why you find additional stuff, rare photos loaned by the musicians on many of their releases and their liner notes.

Fresh Sound is no joke. It is a very thorough and serious operation! I buy their stuff without any reservation.

Their Dawn reissues were the first to have most of the alternate takes that were later included in some of the Mosaic sets.

Of course I am not taling about the Definitive/Disconforme releases. These are a different matter and despite numerous inputs from very knowledgeable and worthy contributors here I have yet to figure out the degree of legitimacy of those reissues. As far as I can understand, the legitimacy degree is very near zero!

[king ubu]

Ubu, you're royally wrong about Fresh Sound. They have straightened their operation since their vinyl bootlegging days.

What they reissue nowadays is legit. They even have the full support of many of the musicians they reissue rare albums from which is why you find additional stuff, rare photos loaned by the musicians on many of their releases and their liner notes.

Fresh Sound is no joke. It is a very thorough and serious operation! I buy their stuff without any reservation.

Their Dawn reissues were the first to have most of the alternate takes that were later included in some of the Mosaic sets.

Did Pujol say so?

Seriously: I must correct my ideas about Fresh Sound, in this case. So they do pay royalties? But do they have access to original sources, too? Since a lot of their releases sound pretty crappy (well, older releases... when did they turn legal? Not before the mid 90s, because most discs older than that sound quite "home-made", no?)

I will stand in the corner for a minute now, and I'll have to find some ashes... -_-

[brownie]

Seriously: I must correct my ideas about Fresh Sound, in this case. So they do pay royalties? But do they have access to original sources, too? Since a lot of their releases sound pretty crappy (well, older releases... when did they turn legal? Not before the mid 90s, because most discs older than that sound quite "home-made", no?)

They went legit a long time ago. Probably at the time Pujol started recording fresh material when he traveled to the West Coast and produced those recordings by Bill Perkins, Lennie Niehaus, Dave Pell, Claude Williamson among others.

Remember the Nocturne box that came out from Fresh Sound? That was from original tapes as many (if not most) FS reissues nowadays...

No need to return to ashes

[ejp626]

Remember the Nocturne box that came out from Fresh Sound? That was from original tapes as many (if not most) FS reissues nowadays...

The Nocturne Hollywood box is great. I keep wondering if they will get around to vol. 2 some day ...

[Guest]

Remember the Nocturne box that came out from Fresh Sound? That was from original tapes as many (if not most) FS reissues nowadays...

The Nocturne Hollywood box is great. I keep wondering if they will get around to vol. 2 some day ...

Jordi Pujol makes a great work. What will I do without the Jazz City series, without the nocturne, without the Mike Cuozzo, without Eddie Bert, ...

When the majors will say : Jazz is not a good vaffair for us, they will say stop and we will listen to the rap, Céline Dion, the great american stars, the french star academy,....

I laugh

Bravo VSOP, MOSAIC, Fresh Sound, and (collectables but it's a poor work, ans Verve for ten records by year..)

So long;;;

[Eric]

Delmark finally gets the bone ... and sadly Dusty Groove is one of the pimps.

Both of the Forrest CDs are in print and readily available.

[Chuck Nessa]

Delmark finally gets the bone ... and sadly Dusty Groove is one of the pimps.

Both of the Forrest CDs are in print and readily available.

Hope I remember this correctly - when this material was recorded Elvin told Bob Koester "some day I'll be really famous and you will owe me more money". In the '60s when Elvin came to Chicago with Coltrane, Bob showed up at the gig and gave Elvin a check. Not too many folks like this in the record biz.

[JohnBlutarski]

Oh but Dusty Groove are so "soulful" & have that "spiritual vibe." How many of those witless jackoffs are actually from Chicago & might-- MIGHT?!!?-- have learned a thing or two thanks to JRM & Delmark? I hope ya'll people here who order from there say something, even if it's done more politely than I would.

good story, Chuck. the Elvin tale-- apocryphal?-- that sticks in my mind is that he'd rub down w/Johnny Walker Red before a gig... was that maybe in the notes to the Art Pepper Vanguard box? (& what's Art's spoken intro before "Cherokee" again?)

Peace!

Speckled Red III

how about the "Jazz Factory"? Is that "illegal", too? (just bought Complete Charlie Parker At Massey Hall).

They're form Spain, too...

JB

[JohnBlutarski]

john, not being patronizing, you gotta go back & read this & some other threads. it's not usually a case of legality per se some Corporate Megalith Lawyers might beg to differ if they knew.

my fucking SCORN for Dusty Groove here is based on the fact they're jacking Bob Koester, w/o whom... well, lots of stuff. i don't know the man personally & but i've met him a few times.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for Dusty Groove to sell a copy of an in-print Delmark Record

Question to all my soulful, spiritual brothers here--

does Dusty Groove sell t-shirts or any other stuff?

is it OK if I make my own & sell 'em for $1 in front of their store? i call them witless jackoffs because while sometimes you could accept their hype as mere overenthusiasm, this is shading way past hucksterism into horses's ass (apologies to all Equine Americans & Arabians too) douchbaggery (from the medieval Dubuque). but ooooooh: only eight years 'til Dusty Groove can sell the counterfeit Roscoe "Sound"-- awesome!!

if they are merely ignorant, fine, then it's our ethical duty to educate them.

if they are merely least-common-$$$ denominator opportunists-- fuck 'em.

thank ya'll for coming.

El Cid Nathan

hello Clementine,

you're right , illegal is not right expression for this behaviour.

my only excuse is that last night, during my nightshift, as english is not my birth language, I was searching for the right expression...

[JohnBlutarski]

no trouble JB-- english ain't my first tongue either. TECHNICALLY, some of this stuff is "illegal" in that it does violate U.S. but not other copyright laws. there's a lot of back & forth on all this. the basic rule of thumb is--

#1-- don't ripoff concientious independents-- that means fuck Dusty Groove for jacking Delmark & the same for all those who swiped from Uptown, Mosaic, Bear Family, etc.

#2-- don't ripoff other people's transfers, which is to say OK, if stuff is public domain, hey-- that's reality but have some goddamn respect for self, culture, music etc & if you don't have originals or access to 'em... find some OTHER sandwhich board to wear.

#3-- do NOT support companies who do shoddy ripoffs, repackagings. if you just GOTTA hear the music-- ask in the underground to swap cd-rs or even tapes if that's the way you roll.

let's start w/high quality presentation of the music in the best possible sound & go from there.

while Lonehill may have done-- or may do-- a few OK things, their track record to date is excecrable. meanwhile, how about tossing a buck or three to living jazz musicians (not named Marsalis) instead?

Jimmie Lunceford Says YES!!

elder don clementine

I dig you arguements. Especially important that people get their royalties, also, right?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you guys are compeletly nutz. do you wanna tell me how else i could get a copy of conte candoli's w.c.j. bn lp n shit or maybe the bird boston radio broascast on defineitive i just got (different than the one on fresh sound) like that on cd? these companies are putting stuff on cd that is otherwise hard to find. anyone who brings up the royalites argument, its a total cop out. you are not so high and mighty that your hard earned dollar should go straight into the pocket of a dead jazz musican. its not like the money is going support terrorism or hooking inner-city kids on crack. you guys are trying to be way to proper. i know as a fact its a complete facade.

[RDK]

meanwhile, how about tossing a buck or three to living jazz musicians (not named Marsalis) instead?

Amen to that! I remember reading once on Buddy DeFranco's own message board (who knows - might still be there) that he never received one cent of royalties from the Mosaic box. Don't know if that's since changed, but I often get the feeling that dropping 20 or 30 bucks to see some old jazzer at a live gig will get more sheckles directly to him than all the penny royalties collected from a lifetime's worth of LP and CDs that I might legitimately buy.