mikeweil Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 The beautiful Euphoria CD with Kenny Burrell's instrumental session for Columbia includes a previously unissued track, credited to Burrell, How Could You (track 13), which to me sounds like some piece of Ellingtonia, but right now I don't have the time to check it, maybe someone recognizes the tune instantly? BTW, the session credits have two minor mistakes: - Track 8 Mambo Twist was in fact on the Columbia LP Bluesin' Around; Jim Fisch's liner notes have that correct - Track 13, How Could You, has a wrong matrix number, CO68766 is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 (edited) Sultry Serenade... first recorded Oct 10 1947 by Duke.. a feature for Tyree Glenn (with some Hodges thrown in). I'm not sure if someone wrote words to it, but How Could You certainly fits the opening phrase. Edited July 31, 2003 by P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 The Raben discography identifies the tune as "How Could You Do a Thing Like That to Me" - other sources tell me this is a tune by Tyree Glenn & Allan Roberts. BTW, there is a tune just called "How Could You" by Dubin and Warren. But that seems to be irrelevant here. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 I researched this when I first got the CD, and I also recall finding evidence that the tune is actually "How Could You Do A Thing Like That To Me". Is "Sultry Serenade" an alternate title for the same composition? BTW, it should probably be mentioned that the title of the Burrell Euphoria CD in question is "Moten Swing". One other thing- the old CD version of this material (Bluesin' Around) had the titles reversed on "mambo twist" and "the switch". The master take of "Mambo Twist" is labeled on the "Moten Swing" CD as being previously unissued, but it was on the old CD (labeled as "the switch"). Another p.i. track on the "Moten Swing" CD, the song "Opus 21", was also recorded by Burrell on his "The Tender Gender" album, under the name "Isabella". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 (edited) The Raben discography identifies the tune as "How Could You Do a Thing Like That to Me" - other sources tell me this is a tune by Tyree Glenn & Allan Roberts. BTW, there is a tune just called "How Could You" by Dubin and Warren. But that seems to be irrelevant here. Mike According to the discographies available to me, Glenn recorded a song by that name in 1952 for Roost. On the Burrell Cd it's definitely Sultry Serenade. Sultry generally get's credited to Duke, but on some Ellington CDs / LPs I have both Duke and Glenn get composer credits. It was a feature for Glenn with the Ellington band, this could be one of those (many) cases where Duke picked up a riff or an idea from a band member. Could be Glenn collaborated with Allen Roberts to make a song of it later... BUT Burrell was such a big promoter of Duke I find it strange he would record the tune under Tyree's title.. if that's what it was. There is a version on Erroll Garner's Concert By The Sea.. titled How could you do a thing Like that to Me credited to Glenn only.. which is again Sultry Serenade. Also by that title on Glenn's Roulette album with Strings. Burrell recorded it under the full title on the Cadet album Night at the Village Vanguard ( not the 32 / Muse version) I haven't heard this album but I suspect it is the same tune. Edited July 31, 2003 by P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 (edited) I researched this when I first got the CD, and I also recall finding evidence that the tune is actually "How Could You Do A Thing Like That To Me". Is "Sultry Serenade" an alternate title for the same composition? We were simo-posting The tune is Sultry Serenade, recorded as I mentioned above by Duke in 47, so the How Could you title must be the "alternate".. probably when words were added later. Maybe Glenn got the rights to it from Duke because it was Tyree's conception. Edited July 31, 2003 by P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 (edited) Hmmm - somewhere in the back of my mind, now I'm thinking I recall hearing that "HCYDATTTM" was Glenn's commentary on Ellington appropriating others' material. Don't quote me on that. I've tried to straighten out this and the earlier KB Columbia material. Please take a look and let me have comments. The vocal stuff seems to be a real mess, but Raben has much more complete info than Lord. http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Temp/burrell.htm I don't actually own the Euphoria CD - does it specify take numbers or sequence? I made the big assumption that the master was the final take. Mike Edited July 31, 2003 by Michael Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Burrell recorded it under the full title on the Cadet album Night at the Village Vanguard ( not the 32 / Muse version) I haven't heard this album but I suspect it is the same tune. Peter, thanks for elaborating on the Sultry / How Could You... topic. Regarding Burrell's Village Vanguard recordings, I think you've got that mixed up (or else you know something I don't). I don't have the Cadet LP, but I have all of Burrell's Vanguard recordings on CD (the complete 1959 session- with four bonus tracks; as well as the later recordings on Muse and Paddlewheel). I have no version of "How Could You Do A Thing Like That To Me" recorded at the Vanguard, but I do have a version of "Sultry Serenade" by KB, which was on a Muse album called "Ellington A La Carte" (live 1983 duets with Rufus Reid). This was later issued on a 2-CD set on the Camden Deluxe label, under the title "At The Village Vanguard". The 2-CD set contains 3 Muse albums: "Live at the Village Vanguard" (5216); "In New York" (5241) (also rec. at the V.V.); and the aforementioned "Ellington a la carte" (5435) which was recorded not at the V.V., but at Village West, NY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 I don't actually own the Euphoria CD - does it specify take numbers or sequence? Mike, I'll take a look at your info and see if I can contribute anything (see my post above for starters). The Euphoria CD does include matrix and take numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 The only discrepancies I've found so far: The matrix number given in the Euphoria disc info for "Sultry/HCYDATLTTM" is 69740 (take 3), instead of 68766. For the session you list as 11/29/61, the Euphoria issue gives the date as 11/28/61. Also, I thought I would add that the original CD issue of BLUESIN' AROUND was part of Henri Renaud's "Jazzotheque" series (COL 472239 ). The only date I can find on this CD is the original Sony copyright date of 1983. I would think the CD was released in the late 80's. In my opinion, this material is among the best work Burrell ever recorded. I can't recommend this Euphoria issue highly enough, especially with all of the bonus material it contains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Jim the details I have are via Tom Lord Sep 17 1959 Kenny Burrell trio at the Village Vanguard Burrell / Richard Davis / Roy Haynes was on Cadet 2CAS60019 ( vinyl?) British Checker 6467310 also on German Bellaphon BLST 655b other tracks on the Cadet were Soft Winds Will You Still be Mine I Can't See For Looking Well You Needn't All Night Long some of these tracks were also on Argo..LP655 with others recorded at the session.( I'm a Fool to Want you, Afternoon in Paris).. but not the Glenn tune I didn't check the #@ Jazz that closely, was just looking for the title, but you are probably aware that it was recorded Dec 15 1978 The Cadet / Argos do not seem to have been reissued on LP or CD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Peter, I'm afraid I'm more confused now. Above, you posted: "Burrell recorded it under the full title on the Cadet album Night at the Village Vanguard ( not the 32 / Muse version) I haven't heard this album but I suspect it is the same tune." I responded by telling you that I have (or thought I had) the complete 1959 Vanguard recordings (all ARE on CD, although I had to buy 2 different CD's to get all of the bonus tracks- the CD reissue of Argo 655 on Chess included two; and a CD on Charly included two others), and neither "Sultry" nor "How Could You..." are included anywhere. Cadet was a reissue label following the original Argo ("Man At Work" was the title of the U.S. Cadet reissue of Argo 655, BTW). Your latest post doesn't explain the above statement, so I'm wondering if you were incorrect, or changing your story. As I said, the other version of "Sultry Serenade" that Burrell recorded was on a Muse album called "Ellington A La Carte", recorded in 1983 (duets with Rufus Reid). Although this was NOT recorded at the Village Vanguard, it was included on a Camden Deluxe 2-CD compilation (bringing together 3 Muse albums) entitled "At The Village Vanguard" (not to be confused with "A NIGHT at the Village Vanguard; or "From The Vanguard With Love"; or "Live at the Village Vanguard"; or "Midnight at the Village Vanguard" ... all of which are actual titles of Burrell releases over the years!!). I'm not sure what your reference to Dec. 15, 1978 was concerning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 To further clarify on the 1959 Vanguard recordings, here are the tracks that I'm aware of: Originally issued on Argo 655: all night long,will you still be mine,i'm a fool to want you, trio, broadway,soft winds,just a-sittin' and a-rockin',well you needn't Bonus tracks on Chess CD reissue of Argo 655: i can't see for lookin', cheek to cheek Bonus tracks on (later) Charly CD issue: afternoon in paris,tricotism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 I made the big assumption that the master was the final take. Mike, could you elaborate / clarify what you meant by that? Did you mean that to encompass all the tracks with alternates, or...? Since we were discussing the tune "How Could You..." (no alternate take), I was unclear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 No, not that particular tune, just in general. Without the final digit (X, as in CO12345-X), it's not possible to position the takes accurately to indicate which was recorded first. In many, but certainly not all cases, the master take is the final of the sequence. Kind of like how whatever you've lost is always found in the last place you look. So when there were multiple takes, I positioned the alternate as preceding the master. But there could well be a situation where the players do "one too many" and the master take is an earlier one. If there are take numbers (the final digit) for everything included in the CD set, I'd love to know them because that's something that hasn't been published. However, I'm still a bit wary of this CD since they got the wrong master number for that tune as well as getting the wrong composer. Did they get the date correct? I don't know. Should that -3 just be transferred to the correct master number? That doesn't seem like a sensible thing. I've put up a revised version at the same URL that incorporates some of what has been discussed. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Jim .. Cadet 60019 has the tracks I listed PLUS Sultry Serenade under rhe Tyree Glenn title The Argo was recorded at the same time and venue.. but the Ellington / Glenn tune was not included in the argo. according to Lord these are the total titles that were recorded Soft Winds Will You Still Be Mine Blues in the Closet* I'm A Fool to Want You Broadway I Just Can't see for Looking It's Easy to Remember* Doodlin* Well You Needn't But Beautiful* How Could You do a Thing Like That Cheek to Cheek All Night Long Afternoon in Paris Tricotism Trio Just A Sittin' and a Rockin * were unreleased, the rest were spread out over the Cadet and Argo issues.. I listed the Cadet above and you have the Argo Some titles were on a Chess CD9316 (just Can't See / Cheek to Cheek) was this CD a Burrell comp? Some on Chess Lp 2ACMJ408 ( Afternoon in Paris / Just A Sittin').. was this a Burrell Comp? The Glenn / Ellington title is apparently only on the Cadet issue, and the German equivalent or on the English Checker label6467310 ( with Soft Winds / Will You still be / All Night / Just a Sittin) I have no indication if that was the complete Checker album or if it was a comp with other Burrell albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 If there are take numbers (the final digit) for everything included in the CD set, I'd love to know them because that's something that hasn't been published. I'll provide you with the data from the Euphoria booklet later today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 According to Lord these are the total titles that were recorded Soft Winds Will You Still Be Mine Blues in the Closet* I'm A Fool to Want You Broadway I Just Can't see for Looking It's Easy to Remember* Doodlin* Well You Needn't But Beautiful* How Could You do a Thing Like That Cheek to Cheek All Night Long Afternoon in Paris Tricotism Trio Just A Sittin' and a Rockin * were unreleased, the rest were spread out over the Cadet and Argo issues.. I listed the Cadet above and you have the Argo Some titles were on a Chess CD9316 (just Can't See / Cheek to Cheek) was this CD a Burrell comp? Some on Chess Lp 2ACMJ408 ( Afternoon in Paris / Just A Sittin').. was this a Burrell Comp? The Glenn / Ellington title is apparently only on the Cadet issue, and the German equivalent or on the English Checker label6467310 ( with Soft Winds / Will You still be / All Night / Just a Sittin) I have no indication if that was the complete Checker album or if it was a comp with other Burrell albums. Peter, thanks for clarifying (and for being thorough this time). It appears that I have all of the released tracks now, except for the Ellington/Glenn tune, which I never knew had been released. I wonder if those unreleased tracks are still in existence in a can somewhere... The Chess CD you referred to (CHD 9316) is the one I have. It's not a comp. It's the original Argo album plus two bonus tracks (see above). Sorry, I don't know anything about Chess Lp 2ACMJ408 (If I knew the title, I might be able to answer your question, but possibly not). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Selected data as listed in the booklet for MOTEN SWING: 1. Moten Swing- 6:26 matrix: CO 70109 - take 8 4/30/62 2. Bye And Bye- 2:49 matrix: CO 68763 - take 14 11/28/61 3. The Squeeze- 4:16 matrix: CO 68767 - take 1 11/28/61 4. Opus 21- 4:44 * matrix: CO 69738 - take 9 3/6/62 5. Bluesin' Around- 3:42 matrix: CO 69739 - take 4 3/6/62 6. Mood Indigo- 4:40 matrix: CO 68765 - take 1 11/28/61 7. The Switch- 5:06 matrix: CO 68735 - take 6 11/21/61 8. Mambo Twist- 3:05 matrix: CO 68734 - take 13 11/21/61 9. People Will Say We're In Love- 3:40 matrix: CO 70108 - take 7 4/30/62 10. One Mint Julep- 3:31 matrix: CO 70107 - take 11 4/30/62 11. Gettin' In The Groove- 4:23 * matrix: CO 69740 - take 9 3/6/62 12. Funk Junction- 3:06 * matrix: CO 68764 - take 5 11/28/61 13. How Could You (Do A Thing Like That To Me)- 3:54 * matrix: CO 69740 - take 3 11/28/61 14. Moten Swing (alt)- 6:16 * matrix: CO 70109 - alternate take 3 4/30/62 15. Bluesin' Around (alt)- 4:01 * matrix: CO 69739 - alternate take 3 3/6/62 16. Mambo Twist (alt)- 3:48 * matrix: CO 68734 - alternate take 10 11/21/61 17. People Will Say We're In Love (alt)- 3:28 * matrix: CO 70108 - alternate take 6 4/30/62 18. Gettin' In The Groove (alt)- 4:41 * matrix: CO 69740 - alternate take 2 3/6/62 * = Previously unissued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Thanks to Mike and Jim for the master & take numbers. The latest and greatest update for KB on Columbia 1960-62 is online now at the same URL. It will disappear in a few days, so if you want it, save it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Mike, the page looks great, thanks. Minor point, but you may want to add that the titles for "Mambo Twist" and "The Switch" were reversed on the old Bluesin' Around CD just as on the LP version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 Done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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