Lone Hiill Reissue Program

[garthsj]

Have you checked the Lone Hill catalog recently? Can you overcome your feelings of guilt?

Seriously, I am amazed at what Lone Hill as recently made available, and they are certainly showing the American record company laggards how to do it. Yes, I know that by not paying anything for this material they can turn a profit with relatively low unit sales, but still ... why did they reissue the Jimmy Cleveland material, and not Universal. The same goes for the wonderful Maynard Ferguson "west coast" material that has been totally unavailable since the mid-fifties! The whole Norgran/Clef/Verve fifties catalog is going to be their playground in the next four years ... maybe some of those lost gems will finally see the light of day sometime soon. And, their liner notes are improving quite a bit, but still leave much to be desired.

Any yes ... I do have some feelings of guilt ... bu not enough to stop me from picking up some neglected gems.

http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/newreleases.php

[Guy Berger]

Yes, I know that by not paying anything for this material they can turn a profit with relatively low unit sales, but still ...

Well, isn't all the stuff they're reissuing past the 50 year threshold?

Guy

[Dan Gould]

Yes, I know that by not paying anything for this material they can turn a profit with relatively low unit sales, but still ...

Well, isn't all the stuff they're reissuing past the 50 year threshold?

Guy

Far, far, far from it.

[Guy Berger]

Yes, I know that by not paying anything for this material they can turn a profit with relatively low unit sales, but still ...

Well, isn't all the stuff they're reissuing past the 50 year threshold?

Guy

Far, far, far from it.

Well, that shit's not cool.

Guy

[brownie]

The LoneHill/Fresh Sound catalogue is a jazz fan dream. They are releasing a lot of albums that the original labels slept on (Phil Sunkel, Johnny Williams are new examples).

Obviously the musicians are also taking part in the reissue program and are collaborating with the gathering of the material.

Take for instance the recent Marty Paich FS release 'Paich-ence'. The CD gathers the full 1955-56 studio sessions with complete information on personnel and recording dates (with updated details not available elsewhere).

Edited June 12, 2006 by brownie

[AllenLowe]

I know there are some ethical issues but, trust me, nobody gets rich issuing (or reissuing) this stuff - and without these guys we'd probably never see these sessions again -

[felser]

I've always thought that there were also ethics issues (admittedly very grey) with labels running artists' work out of print, denying the artist the exposure and possible income from an available release. What are the responsibilities of the artist, original issuer, US reissuer, overseas reissuer, US consumer, and overseas consumer really in all of this? And what responsibility is there to serve the music vs. upholding the "legal"copyright, regardless of how it was acquired? Does an artist really deserve to have his material never ever available because a company grabs the perpetual copyright, generations later a whole different management and philosophy of the company refuses to reissue the material, and reasonable leasing is not available? At what point does it become a form of slavery, like the old baseball reserve clause which John Montgomery Ward, Curt Flood fought so valiently? It's one thing to have a Definitive/Lone Hill reissue of something that Verve or Blue Note or someone readily has in print, another thing for them to have a reissue of something that hasn't seen the light of day in 45 years and is unlikely to ever be reissued otherwise.

Edited June 12, 2006 by felser

[Ken Dryden]

It may be a problem similar to proposed DVDs of television series, which also require royalty payments for music included within them. The issuers want to pay a flat rate, the music publishers want a per piece royalty, in case the DVD is a hit. Therefore, nothing happens.

It may be that the that huge conglomerates holding long unavailable material are just too short-sighted, looking only for the next megahit, instead of producing income from stuff they already own and would have minimal costs to make available as CDs.

[medjuck]

The LoneHill/Fresh Sound catalogue is a jazz fan dream. They are releasing a lot of albums that the original labels slept on (Phil Sunkel, Johnny Williams are new examples).

Obviously the musicians are also taking part in the reissue program and are collaborating with the gathering of the material.

Take for instance the recent Marty Paich FS release 'Paich-ence'. The CD gathers the full 1955-56 studio sessions with complete information on personnel and recording dates (with updated details not available elsewhere).

Uhhh.. I don't think Marty was available to take part.

[brownie]

The LoneHill/Fresh Sound catalogue is a jazz fan dream. They are releasing a lot of albums that the original labels slept on (Phil Sunkel, Johnny Williams are new examples).

Obviously the musicians are also taking part in the reissue program and are collaborating with the gathering of the material.

Take for instance the recent Marty Paich FS release 'Paich-ence'. The CD gathers the full 1955-56 studio sessions with complete information on personnel and recording dates (with updated details not available elsewhere).

Uhhh.. I don't think Marty was available to take part.

Uhhh... indeed! Meant his family and friends, of course -_-

[JohnS]

I've overcome my feelings of guilt - but I think that the two or three things I just had to have all fell within the 50 year rule. I'd rather have a legit issue but failing that Lonehill and it's associated labels will just have to do.

[B. Clugston]

I take issue with Lonehill’s sloppy, misleading and unethical reissues.

Two bad examples are Eric Dolphy Quartet’s Complete Recordings Featuring Lalo Schifrin (which does not even include Lalo Schifrin!) and Albert Ayler’s Complete Live At Slug’s Saloon Recordings, which is not complete and competes against a legitimate version that is complete.

On the other hand, it’s not like a major label would ever reissue John Graas’ records and Lonehill did. But Lonehill crosses the line way too much for me. A shady label.

[garthsj]

I take issue with Lonehill’s sloppy, misleading and unethical reissues.

Two bad examples are Eric Dolphy Quartet’s Complete Recordings Featuring Lalo Schifrin (which does not even include Lalo Schifrin!) and Albert Ayler’s Complete Live At Slug’s Saloon Recordings, which is not complete and competes against a legitimate version that is complete.

On the other hand, it’s not like a major label would ever reissue John Graas’ records and Lonehill did. But Lonehill crosses the line way too much for me. A shady label.

Having been an "early adopter" of LoneHill reissues (or sometimes 'new' releases) I have noticed a definite improvement in their notations recently. Maybe when they realize that they are capturing the coin from the pockets of "serious" collectors they will become more meticulous and forthright in their marketing. I am also tired of their "Complete Session of ..... " labels. I wish they would cut that out. Fresh Sounds Records started out this misleading way too, and eventually Jordie Pujols realized that he was annoying his customers with misleading captioning. Pujols now apparently works closely with the record companies to get the best available master tapes. Perhaps LoneHill will move in the same direction.

In the meantime, I have just listened for the first time in a long time to what was in this morning's post -- the LoneHill reissue of the Manny Albam Jazz Workshop album (from RCA), and remembered how much I used to enjoy this music, and the fine perfomances of Hal McKusick, Joe Newman, Al Cohn, and Bob Brookmeyer.

Also, the very recent LoneHill reissue of Dave Brubeck's "At Storyville 1954" has the Brubeck fans all excited, as Dave, who maintains control over his material, has refused to allow Sony/Columbia to reissue this important album. This is where the ethics gets murky ...

[Fer Urbina]

Lonehill's misuse of the word "Complete" has been reported so many times I'm beginning to think they have more CDs wrong than right (not going to count them). Case in point, the latest Eddie Costa, what is the point of calling it Complete Trio Recordings if you then explain (in the back of the CD) that they're really a couple of LPs straight? The only reason I can think of is misleading the buyer (for the record, they're not the complete trio recordings, not as a leader, or in studio).

As for non-reissued albums, do check their reissues against Japanese reissues and you might be surprised. Japanese is expensive, right, but not outer space.

Fresh Sounds Records started out this misleading way too, and eventually Jordie Pujols realized that he was annoying his customers with misleading captioning. Pujols now apparently works closely with the record companies to get the best available master tapes. Perhaps LoneHill will move in the same direction.

I don't think Pujol works anywhere near the majors (doesn't need to, anyway). As for Lonehill going in that direction, I don't see that happening. Not at all.

F

Edited June 14, 2006 by Fer Urbina

[Eric]

Stuff on small labels, probably never to be re-issued - that is kind of OK in my book. I will buy it from these guys, but if it ever comes out legit, I will buy it again.

However, it seems they are way over the line, now disregarding even the European copyright laws. The Harold Land/Carmell Jones lp on Atlantic. Even they say it is from 1962. Plus Koch just re-did that a few years ago.

Their rip-offs of Mosaic and now even the Selects is just disgusting.

[JSngry]

Also, the very recent LoneHill reissue of Dave Brubeck's "At Storyville 1954" has the Brubeck fans all excited, as Dave, who maintains control over his material, has refused to allow Sony/Columbia to reissue this important album.

Just read this...

Whazzup w/Brubeck refusing a legit reissue? That's some damn fine stuff, almost as good as the Fantasy things.

[Claude]

The Lonehill stuff is mostly not legit (not in the public domain in Europe), but nobody seems to care.

In the jazz section of the FNAC in Brussels (the largest media store in belgian capital, with quite knowledgible staff), Lonehill CDs are regularly featured in their listening stations, and there are often Lonehill promos. The CDs are being treated like reissues from the big labels (RVGs, OJCs, Verve, etc).

It's too bad that these reissues are not official, because the sound quality is often not as good as it could be, with the CDs being dubbed from LP production masters or vinyl. It's probably good enough for most listeners though.

[sidewinder]

Their rip-offs of Mosaic and now even the Selects is just disgusting.

That's as good a reason as any for me to ignore these guys and their dubious offerings.

(although I did capitulate once on one of the Jazz Studio CDs, shame on me.. )

Got increasingly p*ssed yesterday looking through the racks of a shop which seemed to be bursting at the seams with Lonehill.

Edited January 14, 2007 by sidewinder

[Eric]

Ooops, time to bone Concord/Fantasy. Gee, too bad they shot their wad too soon or they could have gotten the RVG version of 4, 5 & 6.

Text courtesy of the Bastards:

Complete Recordings (4, 5 & 6/Long Drink Of The Blues/Makin' the Changes)

Jackie McLean/Mal Waldron Quartet

CD (Item 441390) Prestige/Lonehill (Spain), 1956/1957/1960 -- Condition: New Copy

One of the greatest pairings in jazz of the late 50s -- the alto sax of Jackie McLean and piano of Mal Waldron, heard here in a collection of amazing sides from classic albums on Prestige! Waldron's dark tones on the keys were a great complement to McLean's growing sense of modernism on the alto -- and together, the players forged some incredible sounds under the auspices of otherwise loosely-assembled dates for Prestige. The 2CD set features a whopping amount of material -- 20 tracks in all, pulled from the albums 4 5 & 6, Long Drink Of The Blues, Makin' the Changes -- plus additional material from Strange Blues, Outburst, and Left Alone! Other players here include Doug Watkins on bass, Art Taylor on drums, Donald Byrd on trumpet, Hank Mobley on tenor, and Bill Hardman on trumpet -- and titles include "Why Was I Born", "Embraceable You", "These Foolish Things", "Old Folks", "What's New", "Bean & The Boys", "Strange Blues", "Outburst", "Left Alone", "Confirmation", "Contour", "Beau Jack", and "Love Is Here To Stay".

Edited January 16, 2007 by Eric

[Guest youmustbe]

Maybe, but the Lonehill guy offers them wholesale for as low as 3 dollars...while a 'legit' release would be 7 to 8 dollars wholesale.

So, if you were running a store, and had to pay rent, support a family, which would you choose?

Or do you believe that everyone should be 'socially responsible' and not make a 'large' profit?

("Hi, I want to sell my house but I don't want to make too much of a profit')

[felser]

Question: Do we KNOW that Lone Hill is pirating the stuff, or are we assuming it?

Two points -

1. It's my understanding that there are some countries with a 35 year copyright law.

2. Lone Hill isn't just putting out material from little, out of business labels. They're putting out material held by EMI, Sony, etc. Why wouldn't those companies go after them if there's a legality issue? And it's not artists who won't sell at all, it's Chet Baker, Count Basie, etc. And they're using cover art from the original releases in their booklets, original liner notes, etc.

Has anyone ever contacted Lone Hill to find out the basis of these releases? What do we know here, and what are we assuming?

[B. Clugston]

If I'm catering to knowledgeable jazz fans, selling incomplete needle drops wouldn't be a profitable choice in the long run.

Maybe, but the Lonehill guy offers them wholesale for as low as 3 dollars...while a 'legit' release would be 7 to 8 dollars wholesale.

So, if you were running a store, and had to pay rent, support a family, which would you choose?

Or do you believe that everyone should be 'socially responsible' and not make a 'large' profit?

("Hi, I want to sell my house but I don't want to make too much of a profit')

[jazzbo]

If I'm catering to knowledgeable jazz fans, selling incomplete needle drops wouldn't be a profitable choice in the long run.

Maybe, but the Lonehill guy offers them wholesale for as low as 3 dollars...while a 'legit' release would be 7 to 8 dollars wholesale.

So, if you were running a store, and had to pay rent, support a family, which would you choose?

Or do you believe that everyone should be 'socially responsible' and not make a 'large' profit?

("Hi, I want to sell my house but I don't want to make too much of a profit')

I think you're correct, that Lonehill operates out of an area with a different copyright law.

So it's not illegal for them to rip off the lps and sell in THAT zone. It's still therefore, I think, technically illegal for them to be sold in the US and maybe other markets. The labels have to go after the distributors and sellers in the US if they go after anyone. . . .And that's dicey business I would bet.

[Eric]

labels have to go after the distributors and sellers in the US if they go after anyone. . . .And that's dicey business I would bet.

Although Concord just spent ~ $80 million big ones to acquire Fantasy, which strongly suggests they would have the resources and probably the will/clout to fight this.

This one is a travesty. How rapid the descent from labor of love to outright theft ...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009SQ4P...7381423-0515060

Edited January 17, 2007 by Eric

[Eric]

Maybe, but the Lonehill guy offers them wholesale for as low as 3 dollars...while a 'legit' release would be 7 to 8 dollars wholesale.

So, if you were running a store, and had to pay rent, support a family, which would you choose?

Or do you believe that everyone should be 'socially responsible' and not make a 'large' profit?

("Hi, I want to sell my house but I don't want to make too much of a profit')

Well you are not guaratnteed a profit, mortgage or not. Just about every business owner has the opportunity to draw the line at whoredom. Sell some Beyonce CDs if you need to feed junior.

Edited January 17, 2007 by Eric