Grant Green Club Mozambique UK release

[Soul Stream]

Does this make any sense?

Complete sense. Something that's sorely lacking in jazz of today...good times and showmanship.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Does this make any sense?

Complete sense. Something that's sorely lacking in jazz of today...good times and showmanship.

Absolutely. This reminds me of the stuff Pat Martino wrote - or told the interviewer - for the sleeve notes of the CD reissues of some of the Willis Jackson LPs. Willis was always concerned that the band should come across; that the audience should think they were in the right place, at the right time, seeing the right band. That went from clothes to behaviour to music.

Just finished B B King's autobiography and he says the same thing.

Art may be all very well for some, but give me commercial music any time.

MG

[robertoart]

I am sitting on the other side of the world to you guys so the Club Mozambique hasn't landed yet. This thread is helping to keep the anxiety down while I wait to hear it. Actually I think being able to read these posts will make finally hearing this cd even more special. Wow! Can someone tell me if there is a blues on this, say in the Ease Back mould or not. Just wondering.

[robertoart]

Not that this CD needs anymore analysis (the comments and opinions above cover a lot of bases), but my 2 cents...

1) The sound quality is a factor, and probably lessens the impact somewhat. It's certainly acceptable.

2) I agree with Bob Belden's points about the repertoire and audience. I heard Green's groups of this period several times in the kind of venues Belden describes - they usually led off with "Ease Back" and continued with similar material. One time, seemingly out of the blue, they did a 20 minute version of "Fancy Free" which caught me by surprise - later it turned up on the "Lighthouse" LP's - but this wasn't typical of what they were doing. ("Maiden Voyage" showed up on the last "Alive" release, it's in a similar vein.)

3) Green never put on a "show" the way (say) Jack McDuff or Jimmy McGriff would - his group pretty much played the music unadorned. (The Miles Davis of the organ lounge?) But Green always had a big smile on his face when he comped those repetitive figures behind the other soloists, and when Claude Bartee was finished he'd pop the sax out of his mouth with a big grin.

4) Green almost always used Idris Muhammad on his albums - a wonderful drummer in this (and, as it turns out, ANY) setting. But his regular drummers were no slouches, either, just as strong in their own way. I think one of the reasons for the success of the "Lighthouse" session is the drummer from his regular working band. (All in all, I still think that record is the most accurate representation of Green "live" - the extra musicians give it an extra oomph, but Green's quartets were pretty exciting as they were.)

5) Even Grant Green has only so many licks to play over a vamp.

Just to further echo the thumbs up for these posts DMP. When you have never seen your heroes from this era and you rely on liner notes and books, these recollections mean a LOT

[DMP]

One of the few advantages to being older - we were around to see and hear our musical heroes. I caught the tale end of the era, when a wide range of jazz artists made regular (and week-long) stops in what were basically neighborhood spots. Here in Pittsburgh we had one club which primarily featured organ groups (Donaldson, Lonnie Smith, John Patton, McDuff, Scott, Earland, Pat Martino & Gene Ludwig) and a second (not far away) that had more straight-ahead groups (Horace Silver, Kenny Burrell, 3 Sounds, Art Blakey, Roy Ayers, James Moody... One time there was an appearance by the short-lived and apparently un-recorded "Jazz Communicators" - Freddie Hubbard and Joe Henderson!). Green was one of the only musicians to play both venues. Great atmosphere, very reasonable (a beer was maybe a dollar), it was no big deal to drop by a couple times during an engagement. (I saw Green so many times I think he thought he knew me.) I've lost track of all the people I've heard in this setting. Hope I appreciated it. The scene hung on for a few years after the King assassination (and the subsequent riots), but was pretty much over by the mid-seventies (when jazz in general was having a tough time). (About a week after the riots I went to hear Groove Holmes, after hearing a campaign speech by Eugene McCarthy. Seems surreal.) I'm sure there are many people around here who heard a lot more than me.

One of the other advantages of being older is the discount at "SuperCuts."

Edited July 21, 2006 by DMP

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

One of the few advantages to being older - we were around to see and hear our musical heroes.

One of the advantages of being older - and living in America. Those organ room heroes never came to Britain. GG came in '69 to a jazz festival, appearing in a guitar workshop and that was it. The first organ band that did come over here, I think, was Houston Person's, who did a gig at the very expensive Ronnie's in London in '79 or '80 maybe.

My mate, who lives not far from London, saw him and it was then that we first heard about the Club Mozambique session - Houston told my friend that BN had lost it. Turns out that he was only partly right, thank goodness!

MG

[etherbored]

that's one of many things i love about your posts!

-e-

Art may be all very well for some, but give me commercial music any time.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

that's one of many things i love about your posts!

-e-

Art may be all very well for some, but give me commercial music any time.

MG

'Course, it doesn't have to be commercial HERE and NOW; just SOMEWHERE, SOMETIME.

MG

[monkboughtlunch]

I picked up this release. Here is my take on it:

1. Sound quality. Sound is mono but certainly acceptable. Green is a little too low in the mix sometimes, but as this was only a mono reference mix and never intended to be a release master, this is forgiveable. Sound is "dry" with virtually no room sound and audience is not always well captured. If you listen on headphones, you will hear occasional tape drop outs and azimuth problems affecting the cymbals. But in general the sound is good.

2. Performance - Green and Person certainly have intact chops, but these superb musicians are underserved by the middling material consisting mostly of one chord boogaloo vamps. Listening to this release, I kept wanting for them to play a simple basic blues -- it didn't happen. Instead, we have an hour of mediocre material performed by very talented musicians. In the head arrangement for "More Today Than Yesterday" Green an co. break into 4/4 jazz time for a few bars raising expectations that they may solo over chord changes, but they quickly revert back to boogaloo, dashing hopes for any glimpse of "classic" Green.

But then it finally happens, Green and co. actually solo over chord changes on "One More Chance." Not too shabby.

Another complaint about this material is that the "head statements" trudge on way too long on some tracks. For example, the head on "One More Chance" drags on for an unbearable 2:10 before Green's solo begins.

"Everything I Play Gonna Be Funky From Now On" - this Lou Donaldson title could apply to Grant Green's ethos in the late 60s - early 70s. His music along with the African American political landscape became more militant and blended funky rock rhythms in jazz. But the boogaloo concept of jazz--for me at least--becomes boring after hearing bored musicians trudge through one-chord vamps for an hour. It is unclear whether Green really loved this type of monotonous boogaloo jazz music--or if it allowed him to pay the bills on the live circuit. Perhaps it was a combination of both. A little more variety in his live sets, adding blues and 4/4 jazz to complement the boogaloos would have showcased his talents more broadly.

Green's chops were certainly intact in the early 70s: witness his workout on his superb blues composition "California Green," a studio track from 1971. Some have talked about a 1973 recording Green made with Houston Person called Eastbound (?) in which the musicians tackle straight ahead jazz material. It would be wonderful to see that released.

I am thankful for Beldon pushing this to be released--hopefully we will see more Blue Note Green material, including the rejected Ike Quebec, Freddie Roach, Gene Harris recordings of the early 60s. The two dates with Johnny Hodges and Wild Bill Davis Green did for Verve should also be reissued.

Edited July 22, 2006 by monkboughtlunch

[Soul Stream]

I'm not sure I agree with the statement that these guys are "trudging" through boring one-chord vamps endlessly. Quite the opposite. I thought the arrangements and song choices were quite imaginative.

If you're expecting early 60's Grant soloing on Oleo, you're just going to be disappointed. Matter of fact, listen to Grant Green on Don Patterson's "Brothers Four" recording from the September of 1969. Grant's soloing over changes in his "boogaloo" mode. So, yes...I think Grant really dug playing this stuff and in this later style he developed. In Sharon Green's book "Rediscovering Grant Green," the story is told how excited Grant was about James Brown, ect.

[monkboughtlunch]

My bias is towards blues based and straight ahead jazz material. I've tried to like Green's later material, but have been consistently disappointed despite giving it a chance and listening with an open mind.

For me, there is less passion and emotion in Green's later playing, which relies too heavily on funky "pet licks" on top of boogaloo vamps and loses sight of his earlier highly emotive, blues-based sensibilities. There is plenty of organ jazz Green did in the early-mid 60s which smokes the Mozambique, Alive type 70s material.

Edited July 22, 2006 by monkboughtlunch

[Dan Gould]

My bias is towards blues based and straight ahead jazz material. I've tried to like Green's later material, but have been consistently disappointed despite giving it a chance and listening with an open mind.

For me, there is less passion and emotion in Green's later playing, which relies too heavily on funky "pet licks" on top of boogaloo vamps and loses sight of his earlier highly emotive, blues-based sensibilities. There is plenty of organ jazz Green did in the early-mid 60s which smokes the Mozambique, Alive type 70s material.

That's well and good (and I'm right with you on what you are biased towards) but "bored musicians trudging through" is clearly a projection of your own preferences on to the musicians. There's nothing that says these guys were "bored" by the material. You're bored with the material, as is your right.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Some have talked about a 1973 recording Green made with Houston Person called Eastbound (?) in which the musicians tackle straight ahead jazz material. It would be wonderful to see that released.

This album is actually a double LP called "The real thing" by Houston Person. It was issued on the Eastbound label (2EB9010). Bob Belden's sleeve note is somewhat ambiguous on this. It hasn't been reissued, but one track, plus two previously unreleased tracks - including a 15 minute version of "Lester leaps in" - were issued in Britain on a compilation of Eastbound jazz tracks. The compilation, which is deleted now, is called "Together" on the BGP label CDBGPD071. The album is a combination of straight ahead material and funk material. Grant Green does not appear on all tracks. It was recorded in March 1973 at Club Mozambique and produced by Bob Porter.

MG

Edited July 22, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[DMP]

I agree that there are only so many licks and pet phrases you can play over those vamps, but, as I mentioned above, Green sure looked like he was enjoying it - especially when he was playing those repetitive figures behind the other soloists.

The last time I saw Green play (around the time of his "Kudo" release), I went expecting his usual organ/tenor group, and, instead, he was fronting a local rhythm section, and all the material they played was standards! Caught me by surprise! I was a little disappointed, but, in retrospect, glad to have had the opportunity to hear him in that setting. (And he looked like he was having a good time then, too.)

Edited July 22, 2006 by DMP

[monkboughtlunch]

My bias is towards blues based and straight ahead jazz material. I've tried to like Green's later material, but have been consistently disappointed despite giving it a chance and listening with an open mind.

For me, there is less passion and emotion in Green's later playing, which relies too heavily on funky "pet licks" on top of boogaloo vamps and loses sight of his earlier highly emotive, blues-based sensibilities. There is plenty of organ jazz Green did in the early-mid 60s which smokes the Mozambique, Alive type 70s material.

That's well and good (and I'm right with you on what you are biased towards) but "bored musicians trudging through" is clearly a projection of your own preferences on to the musicians. There's nothing that says these guys were "bored" by the material. You're bored with the material, as is your right.

Hey Dan,

Have you listened to this CD in its entirety? If you have, please let me know your thoughts.

Another reviewer on this board stated that Green wasn't "into it" as much on this date as others.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

YO WHAT A RARE TREAT --- 2 SEE GRANT IN THE LATE 70S DO A 'STANDARDS' SET, LIKE HE USED TO PRE 1969 THAT IS THE COOLEST THING IVE HEARD ABOUT GRANT ALL DAY.

[Dan Gould]

My bias is towards blues based and straight ahead jazz material. I've tried to like Green's later material, but have been consistently disappointed despite giving it a chance and listening with an open mind.

For me, there is less passion and emotion in Green's later playing, which relies too heavily on funky "pet licks" on top of boogaloo vamps and loses sight of his earlier highly emotive, blues-based sensibilities. There is plenty of organ jazz Green did in the early-mid 60s which smokes the Mozambique, Alive type 70s material.

That's well and good (and I'm right with you on what you are biased towards) but "bored musicians trudging through" is clearly a projection of your own preferences on to the musicians. There's nothing that says these guys were "bored" by the material. You're bored with the material, as is your right.

Hey Dan,

Have you listened to this CD in its entirety? If you have, please let me know your thoughts.

Another reviewer on this board stated that Green wasn't "into it" as much on this date as others.

No, I haven't yet had the chance to purchase, though I hope to soon. I still suspect that those who think Grant "wasn't into it" or was "bored" are projecting their own disappointment with the material onto a presumption that Green, being so good at more challenging material, was somehow unhappy and bored having to play this dreck. From the memories offered by DMP, it doesn't sound like Grant looked bored playing in this style.

[jazzypaul]

My bias is towards blues based and straight ahead jazz material. I've tried to like Green's later material, but have been consistently disappointed despite giving it a chance and listening with an open mind.

For me, there is less passion and emotion in Green's later playing, which relies too heavily on funky "pet licks" on top of boogaloo vamps and loses sight of his earlier highly emotive, blues-based sensibilities. There is plenty of organ jazz Green did in the early-mid 60s which smokes the Mozambique, Alive type 70s material.

You know what I hate about this type of yammering? It's the fact that people consistently miss the point. It's hard to put this into words, but this is the best that I can do...

Grant in his early days was a phenomenal guitarist. There's no denying that. His albums were great, all the way around. When he played with Baby Face Willette, it just sounded great. When he played with Big John Patton, it just felt great. When he played with Larry Young and Elvin Jones, well, damn. It was heaven. He locked up well with great backing bands and made great music, whether as a leader or a sideman.

So far, I believe we're all in agreement.

Here's what people forget though:

His post-1969 was great stuff too! I'd have a hard time really calling it jazz, but it's great! It's great funk music. It's great dance music! It's infectious. It's driving. It's foot-tappin' feel good shake yo' ass music. And if ass shaking music was the point of Alive!, Green is Beautiful or Live at the Club Mozambique, then they accomplish their goals effortlessly.

Which is to say that on some level, you're dealing with apples and oranges. When Scott Yanow's review of Alive! was still up on AMG, I thought it was one of the most insulting and ignorant reviews of a jazz album of all time. And when I got the chance to ask him about it, he said that it didn't hold up to Grant's earlier work (and on a technical level, maybe it doesn't). And my response to that (no matter who is saying it) is that you CAN'T compare The Sonny Clark Quartets with Alive! or Green Is Beautiful. It's simply pointless. The target audience was different, the groove was different, the feel was different. The concept was different.

In other words, you're complaining that an album that was never meant to suit your tastes didn't suit your tastes. If you don't like vamps and boogaloos, I highly suggest not listening to Grant Green recorded after 1966.

As for me, Grant's funky stuff was some of the first jazz that I really attatched to. Bitches Brew was first, and I dug it, but my friends wouldn't bitch when Alive or Green Is Beautiful was in the tape deck in the car. So I listened to those a lot more, and got really attatched to them. I heard Grant's "heavier" work later, and dug that too. Because, after all, believe it or not, sometimes, you can like more than one period of an artist's work.

And I've heard Live at the Club Mozambique as of last night, and it is a B-A-A-A-A-A-A-D mutha. I like it. That version of Jan Jan is a monster.

[CJ Shearn]

just got mine, I agree with jazzypaul, Green in 1961 and 1971 are different animals. Man, the best thing about this album are the sax solos, they just go out of control. More than once Clarence Thomas' playing made me laugh out loud. Like Harold Alexander on "Understanding", hearing Coltrane and various out licks over a one chord vamp crack me up.

[monkboughtlunch]

My bias is towards blues based and straight ahead jazz material. I've tried to like Green's later material, but have been consistently disappointed despite giving it a chance and listening with an open mind.

For me, there is less passion and emotion in Green's later playing, which relies too heavily on funky "pet licks" on top of boogaloo vamps and loses sight of his earlier highly emotive, blues-based sensibilities. There is plenty of organ jazz Green did in the early-mid 60s which smokes the Mozambique, Alive type 70s material.

You know what I hate about this type of yammering? It's the fact that people consistently miss the point. It's hard to put this into words, but this is the best that I can do...

Grant in his early days was a phenomenal guitarist. There's no denying that. His albums were great, all the way around. When he played with Baby Face Willette, it just sounded great. When he played with Big John Patton, it just felt great. When he played with Larry Young and Elvin Jones, well, damn. It was heaven. He locked up well with great backing bands and made great music, whether as a leader or a sideman.

So far, I believe we're all in agreement.

Here's what people forget though:

His post-1969 was great stuff too! I'd have a hard time really calling it jazz, but it's great! It's great funk music. It's great dance music! It's infectious. It's driving. It's foot-tappin' feel good shake yo' ass music. And if ass shaking music was the point of Alive!, Green is Beautiful or Live at the Club Mozambique, then they accomplish their goals effortlessly.

Which is to say that on some level, you're dealing with apples and oranges. When Scott Yanow's review of Alive! was still up on AMG, I thought it was one of the most insulting and ignorant reviews of a jazz album of all time. And when I got the chance to ask him about it, he said that it didn't hold up to Grant's earlier work (and on a technical level, maybe it doesn't). And my response to that (no matter who is saying it) is that you CAN'T compare The Sonny Clark Quartets with Alive! or Green Is Beautiful. It's simply pointless. The target audience was different, the groove was different, the feel was different. The concept was different.

In other words, you're complaining that an album that was never meant to suit your tastes didn't suit your tastes. If you don't like vamps and boogaloos, I highly suggest not listening to Grant Green recorded after 1966.

As for me, Grant's funky stuff was some of the first jazz that I really attatched to. Bitches Brew was first, and I dug it, but my friends wouldn't bitch when Alive or Green Is Beautiful was in the tape deck in the car. So I listened to those a lot more, and got really attatched to them. I heard Grant's "heavier" work later, and dug that too. Because, after all, believe it or not, sometimes, you can like more than one period of an artist's work.

And I've heard Live at the Club Mozambique as of last night, and it is a B-A-A-A-A-A-A-D mutha. I like it. That version of Jan Jan is a monster.

I don't buy that Green's earlier output should be classified as more technical. If anything, his later playing became faster (speed was never Green's strong point), more calculated--spewing the same pet licks over the vamps. His earlier material showcased him in a broader range of settings. Sure there were challenging dates in the early and mid 60s such as Solid, Matador and Clark Quartets, but there were also many so-called soul-jazz outings. These recordings find Green playing more lyrically, more directly than his later funk period. Yet he manages shake ass like a madman. For example, The Natural Soul smokes and grooves in a way that a contrived piece of tired funk like Jan Jan can't touch. Green always had a penchant for ass shakin - check his work with Willette and Patton etc. These are valid comparisons: both are greasy, funky organ combos recorded 10 years apart.

Like I said, Green remained a superb player in the 1970s, despite the personal issues. There are moments of genius that shine through the post Lion-produced output, but his later recordings suffer from just that: poor producing, material of extremely limited variety, frequent overdubbing (of studio material) and the restrictive inability to showcase the range of his talents.

Look back to the 1966 boogaloo The Yodel on John Patton's Got a Good Thing Goin. This vamp grooves and smokes in a way that Green's later post-69 overproduced, contrived and calculated output can never match. Lesser producers, lesser material, formulaic output: recycled pet lick vamping.

It's no wonder that Green got sick of being limited and confined to doing only vamping and started playing standards on the live circuit in the 70s. He was too talented to be in one bag.

Edited July 26, 2006 by monkboughtlunch

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

chewy-chew-chew here 2 respectively NO disrespectivly disagree. all grant is good. he didnt flub up on jan jan. jan jan is just as fun to listen to as SOLID or Goin West' or any of the other grant albums. he never band a crappy record. grant is one of the most diverse BN artists as has been noted here- you are just spewing the same kind of crap people say about donald byrd, "oh his 70s stuff is so trite compared to free form blah blah fucking blah" get over it soul-brother: life continues beyond 1970........

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

chewy-chew-chew here 2 respectively NO disrespectivly disagree. all grant is good. he didnt flub up on jan jan. jan jan is just as fun to listen to as SOLID or Goin West' or any of the other grant albums. he never band a crappy record. grant is one of the most diverse BN artists as has been noted here- you are just spewing the same kind of crap people say about donald byrd, "oh his 70s stuff is so trite compared to free form blah blah fucking blah" get over it soul-brother: life continues beyond 1970........

YESSSSS!!!!!

GG WAS BASICALLY A SOUL JAZZ MUSICIAN WHO MADE THE OCCASIONAL HARD BOP RECORD.

MG

[Sundog]

You know what I hate about this type of yammering? It's the fact that people consistently miss the point.

With all due respect, I don't think anyone is missing the point. I just think there are differing opinions on the relative merits of Grant's later work. So be it. What does it really matter anyway? Those who dig it great. Those you don't fine. Buy the album and find out for yourself.

[CJ Shearn]

he was a damn good hard bop player though! And nobody could play those single note horn lines like Grant. Repetitions or not, it was wonderful, IMHO. And, listening to this Mozambique side, its very clear how much of an influence GG had on George Benson. "I Am Somebody" smokes!

Edited July 26, 2006 by CJ Shearn

[jazzypaul]

You know what I hate about this type of yammering? It's the fact that people consistently miss the point.

With all due respect, I don't think anyone is missing the point. I just think there are differing opinions on the relative merits of Grant's later work. So be it. What does it really matter anyway? Those who dig it great. Those you don't fine. Buy the album and find out for yourself.

I respectively disagree for this reason: the people who don't like it generally don't like funk. I've yet to find someone who deeply appreciates funky dance music who doesn't dig this stuff. However, jazz fans far too obsessed with various points of "jazz tradition" give Grant a bad rap because he wasn't doing in 1969 what he was doing in 1964. And they all say the exact same thing over and over again. It's like listening to a broken record: "repetitive riffs and back beats" "pet licks" "one chord vamps."

I mean, at the very least, expound on the argument for once. I really, honestly don't care if people don't like it. However, they fail to see the beauty of it, which means that they're not listening. They're not noticing that it's an apples and oranges kind of a game, and to compare 1969 Grant to 1964 Grant is silly.

They might as well be two different players with the same tone. And if you dig one more than the other, that's cool and fine and dandy. However, to compare the two is to deny an artist the ability to change up what they do. And that is completely stupid.

I might not like Miles Davis after Jack Johnson, but I don't begrudge him for trying to do other stuff. And I wouldn't dare try to compare We Want Miles to Miles Smiles. It's too different for a comparison to even matter. So they both stand on their own merits. I choose not to listen to We Want Miles, and I choose to listen to Miles Smiles A LOT.

I see roughly the same thing with Grant Green.

And, by the way, MBL...Jan Jan kicks ass.