Jimmy Smith - House Party/The Sermon

[Kyo]

When Blue Note released RVG Editions of House Party and The Sermon somebody thought it

would be a great idea to remove all the extra material from the old 1990 CD issue of The Sermon.

I've been doing some research and came up with four tracks from those sessions that I don't have on CD:

What Is This Thing Called Love?

August 25, 1957

Lee Morgan, Curtis Fuller, George Coleman, Jimmy Smith, Kenny Burrell, Donald Bailey

Cherokee

August 25, 1957

Lee Morgan, Curtis Fuller, George Coleman, Jimmy Smith, Eddie McFadden, Donald Bailey

'S Wonderful

August 25, 1957

Lee Morgan, Jimmy Smith, Kenny Burrell, Donald Bailey

Included on the old CD edition of The Sermon

Blue Room

Date and personnel unknown to me at this point - none of the horns seem to have been present though.

Included on the old CD edition of The Sermon

Does anyone know what's gonna happen with these tracks? Are they going to be

reissued on an extra CD at some point? Will they be added to some other set - or has

this already happened and I just don't know it yet? How long are these tracks anyway?

Any information would be appreciated.

[JohnS]

I'm making do with the previous issues.

Timings are WITTCL - 15.12

Cherokee - 20.18

Swonderful - 4.59

Blue Room -5.31

[Kyo]

Thanks for the timings! Sounds like Blue Note might be going to milk the JOS cow again with this stuff.

I'm making do with the previous issues.

Do you mean LPs? Have the first two tracks ever been on a CD?

I read that the original Sermon/House Party combo included all

the tracks but all the tracklistings I found for the old House Party disc

only listed the same five tracks that the RVG has. Maybe that's wrong?

Edited August 19, 2006 by Kyo

[Bill B]

Thanks for the timings! Sounds like Blue Note might be going to milk the JOS cow again with this stuff.

I'm making do with the previous issues.

Do you mean LPs? Have the first two tracks ever been on a CD?

I read that the original Sermon/House Party combo included all

the tracks but all the tracklistings I found for the old House Party disc

only listed the same five tracks that the RVG has. Maybe that's wrong?

Jimmy Smith Sextet

Lee Morgan (tp -1/4,6,8) Curtis Fuller (tb -2/4,7,8) George Coleman (as -1/4,8) Jimmy Smith (org) Kenny Burrell (g -1/3,6) Eddie McFadden (g -4,5,8) Donald Bailey (d)

Manhattan Towers, NYC, August 25, 1957

1. tk.2 J.O.S. Blue Note BLP 4011

2. tk.3 What Is This Thing Called Love? Blue Note LT 992

3. tk.4 Just Friends Blue Note BLP 4002

4. tk.5 Cherokee Blue Note LT 992

5. tk.6 Little Girl Blue Blue Note LT 1092, (J) TOCJ 5941/44

6. tk.8 'S Wonderful Blue Note (J) BNJ 50101, (J) TOCJ 5941/44

7. tk.9 Blue Room Blue Note (J) BNJ 50101

8. tk.11 Blues After All Blue Note BLP 4002

* Jimmy Smith - The Sermon! (Blue Note BLP 4011)

* Jimmy Smith - Confirmation (Blue Note LT 992)

* Jimmy Smith - House Party (Blue Note BLP 4002)

* Jimmy Smith - On the Sunny Side (Blue Note LT 1092)

* Jimmy Smith - Special Guests (Blue Note (J) BNJ 50101)

* Various Artists - The Other Side Blue Note 4000 Series (Blue Note (J) TOCJ 5941/44)

[Kyo]

Jimmy Smith Sextet

Lee Morgan (tp -1/4,6,8) Curtis Fuller (tb -2/4,7,8) George Coleman (as -1/4,8) Jimmy Smith (org) Kenny Burrell (g -1/3,6) Eddie McFadden (g -4,5,8) Donald Bailey (d)

Manhattan Towers, NYC, August 25, 1957

1. tk.2 J.O.S. Blue Note BLP 4011

2. tk.3 What Is This Thing Called Love? Blue Note LT 992

3. tk.4 Just Friends Blue Note BLP 4002

4. tk.5 Cherokee Blue Note LT 992

5. tk.6 Little Girl Blue Blue Note LT 1092, (J) TOCJ 5941/44

6. tk.8 'S Wonderful Blue Note (J) BNJ 50101, (J) TOCJ 5941/44

7. tk.9 Blue Room Blue Note (J) BNJ 50101

8. tk.11 Blues After All Blue Note BLP 4002

* Jimmy Smith - The Sermon! (Blue Note BLP 4011)

* Jimmy Smith - Confirmation (Blue Note LT 992)

* Jimmy Smith - House Party (Blue Note BLP 4002)

* Jimmy Smith - On the Sunny Side (Blue Note LT 1092)

* Jimmy Smith - Special Guests (Blue Note (J) BNJ 50101)

* Various Artists - The Other Side Blue Note 4000 Series (Blue Note (J) TOCJ 5941/44)

So Blue Room was a trio recording with just Curtis Fuller and no guitarist. Interesting.

And there's ANOTHER track (Little Girl Blue) from those sessions not on the RVGs. I assume

Little Girl Blue (5:21?) is the recording included on the Jimmy Smith "Standards" CD.

I just found another CD that *might* contain the two tracks not on CD otherwise so far,

Cherokee and What Is This Thing Called Love:

http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail.asp?sku=113792

This is really confusing!

Edited August 19, 2006 by Kyo

[Kyo]

Ah, now I found the correct track listing for the old House Party CD:

1. J.O.S.

2. What Is This Thing Called Love

3. Just Friends

4. Cherokee

5. Blues After All

Seems all the international amazon sites got it all wrong, hence my confusion.

Combine this with the seven tracks from the old The Sermon CD...

1. 'S Wonderful

2. Blue Room

3. Lover Man

4. Confirmation

5. Au Privave

6. The Sermon

7. Flamingo

and you have all the tracks.

Well, all of them EXCEPT Little Girl Blue. But given the personnel I guess

it's not too much of a problem to have it on that Standards CD with Burrell.

I guess it's time to get rid of the RVGs and hunt down the old editions.

WTF was Cuscuna thinking when he put together those RVGs?!

Edited August 19, 2006 by Kyo

[JSngry]

People bitched because the original album contents/sequences got all screwed up. They did the same thing with some Mobley shit, put sessions back together that had been split over albums and reissued them under the origian titl, and people got pissed. So they decided to not do that any more.

Personally, I don't give a fuck. I prefer to have complete sessions together and then break it back into original release sequence on my own, if I ever feel the need (which I seldom do, since I got most of the stuff on LP anyway, as well as a functioning turntable & CD burner). But that's just me. The people spoke, and the people were heard.

Still, ain't it a bitch to have once had everything (minus that one trio cut) out and now not to? Power to the people!

[Kyo]

People bitched because the original album contents/sequences got all screwed up. They did the same thing with some Mobley shit, put sessions back together that had been split over albums and reissued them under the origian title, and people got pissed. So they decided to not do that any more.

I guess I could somewhat understand that from a purist point of view. But the new

House Party disc doesn't contain the original LP, there's also a track added to it.

Just one. Randomly chosen, it seems. almost 26 minutes of space left on the CD.

THAT's what I don't get. So it ISN'T the original album content. It just doesn't make sense.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Kyo

[JSngry]

No, but it is the original LP, in original running order, with a bonus cut at the end. Right?

I think it's the disruption of the original running order(s) that got everybody worked up. I can see that, but hey, don't be dropping new shit for no apparent good reason once you've put it out.

[Kyo]

No, but it is the original LP, in original running order, with a bonus cut at the end. Right?

Yeah. I just don't see what kept them from adding more bonus tracks once they

decided to add that one to start with. They could've easily included the complete

sessions on those RVGs while starting both off with the original track sequence.

The Sermon RVG Edition

Current playing time:

40:08

Add:

What Is This Thing... - 15:12

'S Wonderful - 4.59

Blue Room - 5.31

Little Girl Blue - 5:21

Total playing time would be around 70 minutes.

House Party RVG Edition

Current playing time:

54:02

Add

Cherokee - 20.18

Total playing time would be around 75 minutes.

As I said, I just don't get it. If they had at least followed those two RVGs up

with another disc that includes the missing five tracks - but they still haven't!

I guess I wouldn't be half as annoyed if I didn't own those RVGs already.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Kyo

[JSngry]

I hear ya'.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Cuscuna says that he got fed up with a rather vocal small group of people who hounded him on this issue so this is the way it will be from now on. He knows it's stupid, but he just got tired of the complaints. I hope they're happy now.

I really got into with someone on the old Blue Note bulletin boards about this issue with regards to the Hank Mobley trio of discs, "The Turnaround", No Room For Squares" and "Straight No Filter". The person got pretty nasty with me (via PM, of course) because I basically called these people who badgered Blue Note an unpleasant name. I still think they were wrong, but the damage is done. This person still visits Organissimo. Maybe he'll chime in here to explain to you why he felt you should be denied hearing these songs. It's been over 5 years. I wonder if he's changed his opinion?

For the record, I never heard this music on the original Blue Note LPs. The original CD order is now the correct order as far as us "new" Blue Note fans go. I prefer these old sequences on those Mobley dates. They sound much more coherent, particularly since there are three different pianists spread accross the current CDs!

BTW, I foretold the exact scenario you're in Kyo. Good luck trying to find the old CD of "House Party". It is not easy to find in the used market.

Later,

Kevin

[Kyo]

Cuscuna says that he got fed up with a rather vocal small group of people who hounded him on this issue so this is the way it will be from now on. He knows it's stupid, but he just got tired of the complaints. I hope they're happy now.

With "this issue" you mean the old "complete" sets, right?

Still that one bonus track on House Party just doesn't make any sense at all.

If it was the original LP sequence, OK - but this way it's just so inconsequential.

I should just stop thinking about it or I'll end up all because of some CDs' tracklisting...

I really got into with someone on the old Blue Note bulletin boards about this issue with regards to the Hank Mobley trio of discs, "The Turnaround", No Room For Squares" and "Straight No Filter". The person got pretty nasty with me (via PM, of course) because I basically called these people who badgered Blue Note an unpleasant name. I still think they were wrong, but the damage is done. This person still visits Organissimo. Maybe he'll chime in here to explain to you why he felt you should be denied hearing these songs. It's been over 5 years. I wonder if he's changed his opinion?

For the record, I never heard this music on the original Blue Note LPs. The original CD order is now the correct order as far as us "new" Blue Note fans go. I prefer these old sequences on those Mobley dates. They sound much more coherent, particularly since there are three different pianists spread accross the current CDs!

Yeah, I have all three of the Mobley discs as the new editions but I ended up

combining the individual sessions onto CD-Rs for more coherent listening.

Especially with a unique pianist like Andrew Hill on one of the dates it just

doesn't make sense to have the band change every couple of tracks.

And the one short session that Straight, No Filter Connoisseur starts

with should've just been added to A Caddy For Daddy (same lineup sans

Curtis Fuller). Come to think of it this reissue policy has already cost

me four beautiful CD-Rs.

BTW, I foretold the exact scenario you're in Kyo.

It was inevitable. If those extra tracks had been released in some other

form that wouldn't be so bad but those two RVGs have been released in

late 2000 - and they haven't bothered to bring those missing tracks back

in any way in the six years since then. The Mobley sets at least got

"completed" when the Straight, No Filter Conn edition came out.

Good luck trying to find the old CD of "House Party". It is not easy to find in the used market.

Thankfully there's the amazon.com marketplace, there are quite a few being offered there right now.

I hope I can trade those RVGs for some other discs.

Any takers? Awesome original LP track sequence, I tell you!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Thankfully there's the amazon.com marketplace, there are quite a few being offered there right now.

I hope I can trade those RVGs for some other discs.

Be careful with this. You may get the new version. Many people list a CD based on whatever they can find.

[Kyo]

Be careful with this. You may get the new version. Many people list a CD based on whatever they can find.

Thanks, I'm always careful when it comes to these details. Two weeks ago I

was trying to find the old US edition of Lou Donaldson - Quartet/Quintet/Sextet.

Amazon lists just nine tracks while there should be 15 (or something - don't

quote me on those numbers). I emailed some of the sellers and every single

one confirmed that he was selling the 15 track edition despite the amazon

tracklisting. Only one bothered to include that info in the product info, though.

Let's hope I'm just as lucky with the Jimmy Smith stuff.

[BruceH]

No, but it is the original LP, in original running order, with a bonus cut at the end. Right?

Yeah. I just don't see what kept them from adding more bonus tracks once they

decided to add that one to start with. They could've easily included the complete

sessions on those RVGs while starting both off with the original track sequence.

The Sermon RVG Edition

Current playing time:

40:08

Add:

What Is This Thing... - 15:12

'S Wonderful - 4.59

Blue Room - 5.31

Little Girl Blue - 5:21

Total playing time would be around 70 minutes.

House Party RVG Edition

Current playing time:

54:02

Add

Cherokee - 20.18

Total playing time would be around 75 minutes.

Sounds good to me.

[BruceH]

Cuscuna says that he got fed up with a rather vocal small group of people who hounded him on this issue so this is the way it will be from now on. He knows it's stupid, but he just got tired of the complaints. I hope they're happy now.

I really got into with someone on the old Blue Note bulletin boards about this issue with regards to the Hank Mobley trio of discs, "The Turnaround", No Room For Squares" and "Straight No Filter". The person got pretty nasty with me (via PM, of course) because I basically called these people who badgered Blue Note an unpleasant name. I still think they were wrong, but the damage is done. This person still visits Organissimo. Maybe he'll chime in here to explain to you why he felt you should be denied hearing these songs. It's been over 5 years. I wonder if he's changed his opinion?

For the record, I never heard this music on the original Blue Note LPs. The original CD order is now the correct order as far as us "new" Blue Note fans go. I prefer these old sequences on those Mobley dates. They sound much more coherent, particularly since there are three different pianists spread accross the current CDs!

BTW, I foretold the exact scenario you're in Kyo. Good luck trying to find the old CD of "House Party". It is not easy to find in the used market.

Later,

Kevin

This is why I kept my original CD's of No Room For Squares and The Turnaround, even after getting the RVG's.

[Kyo]

The whole situation reminds me of what happened with "Motion" by Lee Konitz. There was the

first CD edition with three bonus tracks (adding up to a total of eight), then the expanded

3 disc box with eight and a half tracks (one aborted take) from the session (plus two discs

of other material) and now all they're offering is a CD with just the original five LP tracks.

I ended up buying the new Japanese edition which sounds great and has eight tracks.

Edited August 19, 2006 by Kyo

[CJ Shearn]

I made a CDR of the extra jam tracks sans "Confirmation" that make up the LP of the same name. I gave a professor of mine my old "Sermon" so I no longer have those two other tracks. It's ok though. My original Houseparty CD is buried in a box somewhere, where I have the RVG on my shelf for quick access, go figure. I don't mind the original LP sequence b/c I grew up with those two records.

Edited August 19, 2006 by CJ Shearn

[Chuck Nessa]

If you find the old versions of Sermon and House party you might want to keep the RVGs for the improvment in sound. I kept both versions.

[B. Clugston]

The RVG of The Sermon was my first Jimmy Smith purchase. Liked it so much, I got House Party. I was sure pissed to find out about those dropped tracks.

[DMP]

I always thought the original CD issues of this material showed what this new format was all about - a chance to get material out in a logical way and make use of the time available - the Smiths and the Mobleys showed someone was thinking! The RVG's are an improvement in terms of sound, but why not? They came out much later, after engineers and technicians had a better handle on the medium. Glad I hung on to the originals. (And I owned all the LP's - the reorganization never bothered me in the least - it was an improvement.)

[Kyo]

My used copy of The Sermon (the 1987 version) arrived today. Those extra tracks are wonderful! The old House Party CD should be here within the next few days, too.

[king ubu]

Chiming in late here, but in this case the "people" suck. Thanks for your account of the story, Kevin. What a pity that these tradinionalists/album-fetishists couldn't just buy the japanese reissues!

As for the Smith, I have the RVGs and an old version of "The Sermon" and someone here kindly made me a burn of the old "House Party" disc.

The Mobley's don't annoy me as much, as they contain all the material and I didn't ever hear them before, so the RVGs and the Conn is how I got to know that music first. Still I wouldn't have enjoyed it less if it was grouped by sessions.

Main thing, in my opinion, is that all the music gets to see the light, not how it is grouped. Even the annoying bunch of folks should by now have caught up with CDRs and should be able to re-compile their beloved albums, no?

And as one additional thought: the vinyl album is a past concept. That doesn't mean it is (or was) bad, not at all. But somehow it's a bit weird to wish for vinyl album replicas in the new and very different format... if you want the album, buy vinyl, if you buy the CD, do some burning if the track-order of a CD doesn't fit with your tastes.

[Big Al]

Chiming in late here, but in this case the "people" suck. Thanks for your account of the story, Kevin. What a pity that these tradinionalists/album-fetishists couldn't just buy the japanese reissues!

These are the same folks who gave us the Verve LPR series. It's a good thing the albums chosen for that series have been so wonderful, but in the end they're just a bunch of nice-sounding needle-drops (at a nice price as well).