Big NY Times piece about Wynton and JLC

[Larry Kart]

Interesting that this page one Arts & Leisure piece by Nate Chinen never once, as far as I can see, raises the question of, or even mentions, the aesthetic value of Wynton's own music, which you might think would have to be the rock on which this whole edifice must rest. Or is it that, as the piece more or less implies at times, Wynton has really been a frontman all along. E.g. "'It's a dog and pony show," said Ms. Schiff [chairwoman of the JLC board], who often bring Mr. Marsalis on fund-raising calls. 'Nobody sells it better.'"

[Dan Gould]

Interesting that this page one Arts & Leisure piece by Nate Chinen never once, as far as I can see, raises the question of, or even mentions, the aesthetic value of Wynton's own music, which you might think would have to be the rock on which this whole edifice must rest. Or is it that, as the piece more or less implies at times, Wynton has really been a frontman all along. E.g. "'It's a dog and pony show," said Ms. Schiff [chairwoman of the JLC board], who often bring Mr. Marsalis on fund-raising calls. 'Nobody sells it better.'"

1. The article has nothing to do with the aesthetic value of Wynton's music. Wynton, for better or worse, became the face of jazz. That is the basis of his position at JLC and any sort of aesthetic judgement of his music is completely immaterial to the subject of the article.

2. If by "front man" you mean "figurehead" than I have to wonder whether you read the article at all. The entire point is stated in the fourth graph:

“There’s nothing he doesn’t touch,” says Lisa Schiff, chairwoman of Jazz at Lincoln Center’s board of directors. “There’s not a part of our organization he’s not involved in.”

You make it sound like he's the jazz version of Ronald Reagan: he doesn't know any of the details and could care less about them, but he's a great salesman.

[Larry Kart]

[1. The article has nothing to do with the aesthetic value of Wynton's music. Wynton, for better or worse, became the face of jazz. That is the basis of his position at JLC and any sort of aesthetic judgement of his music is completely immaterial to the subject of the article.

2. If by "front man" you mean "figurehead" than I have to wonder whether you read the article at all. The entire point is stated in the fourth graph:

“There’s nothing he doesn’t touch,” says Lisa Schiff, chairwoman of Jazz at Lincoln Center’s board of directors. “There’s not a part of our organization he’s not involved in.”

You make it sound like he's the jazz version of Ronald Reagan: he doesn't know any of the details and could care less about them, but he's a great salesman.

Dan: I understand what the point of the article is -- that Wynton, as you say, "for better or worse, became the face of jazz, and that this "is the basis of his position at JLC." To me, though, that's kind of weird circular thinking, a la the teenage girls who once told sociologist David Reisman (he of "The Lonely Crowd") when he asked them why they were buying a Top Ten recording, "We like it because it's popular."

One would hope that the person who becomes the face of jazz would also be an aesthetically important figure. I don't think Wynton is, but as the article points out, that may be (I think sadly and even dangerously) beside the point -- "dangerously" because the JLC edifice does seem to require that Marsalis be (or be regarded as) an aesthetically important/central figure as well as a hands-on administrator. (If he is not such a figure, what of the tenets of the "gospel of jazz" that JLC "propogates ... through its educational wing" and that Wynton's music is, one assumes, felt to exemplify?) BTW, about that "face of jazz" thing. Assuming that we were both around at the time, do you feel that Wynton's becoming "The Face" was a relatively natural or a highly engineered development? It was the latter IMO.

[Dan Gould]

Well I really discovered the music after Wynton as "face of jazz" was a fact of life. I've understood your view as Chris A. has spoken in the same vein many times. (In the interests of full disclosure, I admit that Wynton's definition of jazz as "blues and swing" jibed with my then nascent understanding and still typifies at least 90% of my collection. On the other hand, I haven't felt the need to buy a Wynton recording in quite some time.)

Personally, I think that Wynton is well-suited to the educational side of the LCJ mission and I'm in favor of anything that puts jazz front and center for young people. Anyone who is motivated to get into the music, as a listener or a player, is likely to find the areas of jazz that Wynton overlooks or outright rejects.

And I just don't see that the aesthetic accomplishments need to be above reproach for someone in his position. Unless one thinks that jazz doesn't belong at Lincoln Center or to be "institutionalized" in the manner that implies, I think its clear that Wynton's abilities have well-served the LJO's purposes.

Now a question for you: Did you mean Wynton as frontman as I interpreted it? Its one thing to be deeply involved as the public face for fund raising purposes but its also clear that Wynton is deeply involved otherwise, also.

[Larry Kart]

Now a question for you: Did you mean Wynton as frontman as I interpreted it? Its one thing to be deeply involved as the public face for fund raising purposes but its also clear that Wynton is deeply involved otherwise, also.

I admit that my use of "frontman"was looser than it should have been. I was thinking of the connotations of Ms. Schiff's phrases "It's a dog and pony show" and (of Wynton) "Nobody sells it better," and also of Chinen's saying of Wynton's "big idea" that it was "first articulated to him by Mr. Murray and Mr. Crouch". I was not thinking of the article's evidence that Wynton is a very hands-on chief administrator at JLC.

[Guest youmustbe]

I don't care, never have, for his playing, nor for his personality. But what he has accomplished is nothing short of awesome, and I say that as someone who has been involved with fundraising for Lincoln Center Organizations.

The music might be boring, but then again at the NY Philharmonic we've already sold out next year's German Requim perfomances, and you want Boring, you got it.

Wynton is a genius...he understands where we are culturally in America today. And believe me he ain't no Frontman! He will get his 36 million or whatever he needs. The only cloud on the horizon is if the real estate boom turns to bust severe belt tightening will be in order, but all these Arts organizations in NY thrive. All the 'crisis' talk is just a ploy to get wallets open.

[paul secor]

I don't care, never have, for his playing, nor for his personality. But what he has accomplished is nothing short of awesome, and I say that as someone who has been involved with fundraising for Lincoln Center Organizations.

What has he accomplished, other than raising money and creating a great gig for himself? Has there ever been any music from Jazz at Lincoln Center that has made a difference? I'm not asking about someone possibly playing one concert there. I'm asking about music created - composed, improvised - by the core of people involved there. I'm also asking about music, not p.r.

[Guest youmustbe]

People with money don't care about 'cutting edge' etc...they want safe stuff, whether it be music, dance etc...Just the way it is.

JOLC at the Rose and Allen Room also serve to put on Classical, Opera, World etc. music, so the whole complex is an important part of NYC's cultural life. Not to mention providing gigs for Jazz musicians...would you close the place down just because you don't like his playing and cancel out 50 weeks of the year employment for the Jazz guys?

[Christiern]

J@LC's new complex is, basically, a tourist trap. New York has always had great clubs where great jazz can be heard, it did not need this corporate attraction. Wynton's accomplishments are not musical. The only good thing I see him doing is his teaching activity, but it is an accomplishment that he has achieved by default. There are many excellent musicians out there teaching young people. They do not seek the spotlight, they haven't the resources, but they have earned respect and they can see beyond bop. We only hear of Wynton's work in this field of endeavor because he has the power of big corporations and the name value of Lincoln Center behind him. This has totally sold our clueless media so that Wynton is inevitably the name that comes to their little minds when the subject is jazz. This, of course, feed the public, so that they, too see Wynton as Mr. Jazz. How nice and good for jazz it would have been if LC had given the job to a truly dedicated, accomplished and visionary artist. Wouldn't it be great if so much attention were showered upon an artist who had earned the spotlight via his/her music?

I submit that the little clubs, like the Vanguard, the old Half Note, Birdland, Five Spot, etc. played a far more important role in New York City's cultural life than the JC complex ever will. Yes, none of these places has/had adequate dressing room(s), the bandstand may have been too small, the lighting and audio wanting, but they had a creative atmosphere--new directions were nourished in those places. I don't se any of that creativity and vision flowing at Wynton's stop-the-clock venues.

[paul secor]

People with money don't care about 'cutting edge' etc...they want safe stuff, whether it be music, dance etc...Just the way it is.

JOLC at the Rose and Allen Room also serve to put on Classical, Opera, World etc. music, so the whole complex is an important part of NYC's cultural life. Not to mention providing gigs for Jazz musicians...would you close the place down just because you don't like his playing and cancel out 50 weeks of the year employment for the Jazz guys?

I guess I don't care much about "People with money".

I think that Chris has made very cogent points in his post. I would only add that if the audiences at JLC want "safe stuff", it becomes destructive for musicians to play that sort of thing and audiences to hear that sort of thing. Playing safe may create some gigs in the short run, but it will destroy the music, the musicians, and the audience in the long run.

[Guest youmustbe]

What does the old Half Note have to do with 2006?

And since JOLC is Wynton's baby, why would he raise money, not to mention kiss ass so someone else gets the gig?

As for tourist traps, what do you think New York City is? You think it's locals who go to restaurants, theaters the Met Opera, museums etc every day of the week?

Some of you are just going to have to admit that someone you don't like is a HUGE SUCCESS in America today, doing it 'In His Own Sweet Way', to quote Miles thru Brubeck!

Anyway, you can all go ballistic today about Ben Ratliff saying that Ko Ko is based on How High The Moon in today's NY Times. That should keep your blood boiling for the next week or so.

[clifford_thornton]

I always wonder what Wynton would do upon being sat down for something like Rufus or a good Candid record...

I can't fault him for at least putting the bar out there for the public, and I think it's up to the rest of us to expand upon that bar. That said, I think his dismissal of Jazz as a truly contemporary, living music (I would say he does this by default) is pretty dumb. And about the free jazz... even my girlfriend of 4 months is now all about Sun Ra!

[Lazaro Vega]

"People with money don't care about 'cutting edge' etc...they want safe stuff, whether it be music, dance etc...Just the way it is."

That's not true, even in Grand Rapids, Michigan (www.uica.org or http://www.meijergardens.org/). In New York City? Wasn't always that way. Takes more work, but usually there's a package to be sold, and within that package are various levels of artistic presentation, not just a monolithic version of the arts. So the Art Institute of Chicago fundraises on the condition that they only exhibit landscapes and portraits? Come on. And what about the Guggenheim as just one example?

Edited August 28, 2006 by Lazaro Vega

[Hot Ptah]

Another voice from the hinterlands here--in Kansas City there is quite a good subscription series for classical music, the Harriman Jewell series, affiliated with the liberal arts college William Jewell College. They presented Wynton and the JLC orchestra in their "variety" sub-series a few years ago (the "special" part of the subscription where modern dance and other non-classical music artists are presented).

The leader of the series came out onstage before the Wynton/JLC concert and said something to the effect that there isn't much jazz today that is worthy of being presented by Harriman Jewell, but we can depend on Wynton Marsalis. This remark was greeted with warm applause.

The Wynton/JLC concert was spotty. There were some good moments, but it was rarely exciting or inspiring. Even within the narrow confines of the music being presented, the orchestra did not live up to the potential of the music. The tenor players could not effectively exchange fours on a Charlie Parker composition, for instance. It certainly was not cutting edge. Ironically, the only really exciting part of the entire evening was the encore, when Wynton came out with only bass and drums and played a truly blistering version of King Oliver's "Snake Rag". I have to give him credit, that was outstanding.

My point is that the classical audience, and many students from William Jewell College (who also make up a large part of the audience at these concerts) received a vision of "what is jazz today" which is inaccurate and unneccessarily negative.

Now, isn't it up to the Harriman Jewell staff to select something better? Yes, but....if you are not keeping current with jazz, Wynton and JLC get so much publicity that it is easy to pick them, and you can be assured that your audience has heard of him. If the same amount of publicity went to a more consistently inspiring, exciting artist, jazz might have a different image around the nation.

[Lazaro Vega]

Not only that, you're assured an audience. Wynton will fill the hall. The arts in America is more about that today than any aesthetic consideration.

[Hot Ptah]

Not only that, you're assured an audience. Wynton will fill the hall. The arts in America is more about that today than any aesthetic consideration.

Certainly true in Kansas City, although to be fair, the presenters try to "push the envelope" as far as they feel they can--presenting Steve Lacy, Lee Konitz, and other artists who are not as commercial as some who could be chosen. I give them credit for that.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Hot Ptah

[Rooster_Ties]

The leader of the [Harriman Jewell, William Jewell College] series came out onstage before the Wynton/JLC concert and said something to the effect that there isn't much jazz today that is worthy of being presented by Harriman Jewell, but we can depend on Wynton Marsalis. This remark was greeted with warm applause.

Isn't much jazz today that's worthy??

That is one majorly fucked up statement.

[Hot Ptah]

The leader of the [Harriman Jewell, William Jewell College] series came out onstage before the Wynton/JLC concert and said something to the effect that there isn't much jazz today that is worthy of being presented by Harriman Jewell, but we can depend on Wynton Marsalis. This remark was greeted with warm applause.

Isn't much jazz today that's worthy??

That is one majorly fucked up statement.

Very true!

I suspect that many members of the classical music establishment feel that way about jazz. Many just don't have the opportunity to express it publicly, or are too discreet to say it out loud in front of a crowd.

[Larry Kart]

Another voice from the hinterlands here--in Kansas City there is quite a good subscription series for classical music, the Harriman Jewell series, affiliated with the liberal arts college William Jewell College. They presented Wynton and the JLC orchestra in their "variety" sub-series a few years ago (the "special" part of the subscription where modern dance and other non-classical music artists are presented).

The leader of the series came out onstage before the Wynton/JLC concert and said something to the effect that there isn't much jazz today that is worthy of being presented by Harriman Jewell, but we can depend on Wynton Marsalis. This remark was greeted with warm applause.

The Wynton/JLC concert was spotty. There were some good moments, but it was rarely exciting or inspiring. Even within the narrow confines of the music being presented, the orchestra did not live up to the potential of the music. The tenor players could not effectively exchange fours on a Charlie Parker composition, for instance. It certainly was not cutting edge. Ironically, the only really exciting part of the entire evening was the encore, when Wynton came out with only bass and drums and played a truly blistering version of King Oliver's "Snake Rag". I have to give him credit, that was outstanding.

My point is that the classical audience, and many students from William Jewell College (who also make up a large part of the audience at these concerts) received a vision of "what is jazz today" which is inaccurate and unneccessarily negative.

Now, isn't it up to the Harriman Jewell staff to select something better? Yes, but....if you are not keeping current with jazz, Wynton and JLC get so much publicity that it is easy to pick them, and you can be assured that your audience has heard of him. If the same amount of publicity went to a more consistently inspiring, exciting artist, jazz might have a different image around the nation.

This fits in neatly with a point a friend who's a talented NYC-area hornman/bandleader/composer/arranger once made to me about one of the downsides of JLC for musicians who are not a part of it. Used to be, he explained, that with his recordings and press clippings he could in most years arrange a month-long-or-so regional or multi-region tour for his ensemble of venues like Harriman Jewell that have non-pop concert series that are not exclusively classical. There are lots of such places and series out there in America, and while it required some savvy, plus much planning and effort, on his part, my friend explained that it worked out quite well for everyone. Then along came JLC, and that market went to hell. First, the presenters by and large were themselves not that savvy about jazz; provided with the surefire JLC brand, that spot on their series roster was automatically filled to their satisfaction; no one else need apply. Moreover, and this is where it really gets insidious, supposing a series has in prior years budgeted enough for jazz to present more than one such concert. Well, the price for the JLC Orch, or any JLC offshoot ensemble, is several times the price of my friend's band (five times more, I think he said) or, he assures me, any comparable ensemble or visiting artist -- say, Bob Brookmeyer leading a good nearby college big band through his most recent charts after having having rehearsed them for a few days. Thus, not only does JLC hog the gigs, its jacked-up premium fees virtually eliminate the chance that any other jazz artists will perform at such venues, because thry've placed this year's budget for jazz entirely in JLC's pockets.

[Hot Ptah]

A footnote to this discussion: the same night that I saw Wynton and the JLC Orchestra in Kansas City, guitarist Rodney Jones was leading a jazz/'70s funk style band at a bar--consisting of Arthur Blythe, Fred Wesley, Dr. Lonnie Smith and Idris Muhammad. I drove from the Wynton/JLC show and went to the Rodney Jones show (I was forced to park four blocks away from the bar and sprint through a blinding downpour-I kept thinking, you would really have to love music to do this).

As I listened to the Rodney Jones concert, it struck me that the funk compositions were more rigid and limited than the entire spectrum of jazz history that Wynton/JLC had drawn from, but that the music of Jones/Blythe/Wesley/Smith/Muhammad was so much more free and exciting, even within the confines of the funk tunes. The soloists were infinitely more inspired and made much more of a human connection than any of the soloists with the JLC band. The music itself seemed vital and alive, compared to Wynton's group, which I had heard less than 30 minutes earlier.

[Guest youmustbe]

Some of you should get a part time job telemarketing for an Arts organization, either fundraising or subscriptions, then you'd appreciate what Wynton has done.

But that is only a small part...Arts organizations depend on government funding, federal, state, or local...as well as corporate sponsorship...that's why there was such a panic especially in the dance world when Philip Morris, a huge supporter had to suspend their donations when the tobacco laws hit. Wealthy patrons help too, but ticket sales and 25 dollars from someone you call on the phone don't really cut it.

There are xceptions to every rule, and paintings hanging in a museum is not the same as putting on 135 perfomances of symphonic pieces in a huge building in Manhattan or what JOLC has to contend with what with Rose room and Allen room underutilzed because of the insane rent they want (need).

All I'm saying is give Wynton credit. HE DID IT! Nobody else did! So he sucks as a musician. He puts butts in seats! Like it or not, that is only criteria when you're running a joint with someone else's money!

[Guest youmustbe]

BTW Wynton is performing the Ellington/Strayhorn Nutcracker with the NY Phil in December. You should hear the excitment in someone's voice, almost exclusively white and suburban, when they call 'You have Wynton Marsalis???!!!!"

That's Showbiz!

[Lazaro Vega]

Larry, that is enlightening. The market has shrunk, not expanded, as a result of this activity, which is reflective of all of America. As George Lewis said, It's the Walmartization of jazz.

[Christiern]

"And since JOLC is Wynton's baby, why would he raise money, not to mention kiss ass so someone else gets the gig?

As for tourist traps, what do you think New York City is? You think it's locals who go to restaurants, theaters the Met Opera, museums etc every day of the week?

Some of you are just going to have to admit that someone you don't like is a HUGE SUCCESS in America today, doing it 'In His Own Sweet Way', to quote Miles thru Brubeck!"

You must be.....yep! You are...another Wynton apologist,

and wouldn't it be nice if that, alleged "HUGE SUCCESS" were generated through musical talent? Measuring a performers success through his hype-generated name recognition and the job he was handed is a very clueless thing to do. One cannot create artistic success through hype, only the illusion of it.

Here, have some ...

[Lazaro Vega]

I don't know...in the spring of 2001 The Roscoe Mitchell Quintet with Fred Anderson came to Grand Rapids and drew 250 or more. The following month violinist Johnny Frigo came to the same venue, playing far tamer, tune oriented music, and drew the same size crowd (numbers-wise, that is, because they didn't look at all a like -- Frigo's people were much older, while Roscoe's crowd was completely mixed in age and race, the true jazz audience).