Bob Dylan Modern Times

[Matthew]

OH HECK YEAH!!! Third row, on the floor, at Key Arena 10/13!!!!!!

Edited September 5, 2006 by Matthew

[Matthew]

Just was able to my hands on this cd today, and my first impressions: This does sound a lot like Love and Theft, a number of the melodies have strong echos of L&T. After listening to the cd I had to laugh at the title Modern Times because this is anything but modern music. It seems to me that Dylan, through the last three cds, has been going back in time and filtering the music that he started with, and putting it through his unique musical lens. Striving to create a timeless style of rock by lifting (or outright stealing) songs from the past, and twisting them to his purpose. Have to give it a couple of more listens and find the lyrics off the 'net so I can get deeper into this cd. Very excited that I was able to get tickets for His Bobness at Key Arena -- never had seat three rows from the stage.

PS: Reflecting on the title of the cd. An easier way to say what I want is that Dylan is looking at this modern world/times though the lens of the music he started with, using that as a touchstone for what he wants to say.

Edited September 5, 2006 by Matthew

[HolyStitt]

Shouldn't Bob give Muddy Waters half a songwriting credit on the songs where he uses the music for "Rollin' and Tumblin"--he uses the title of that one too--and "Trouble No More"? They are not just influenced by the originals--to my ears they are the originals with new lyrics. But nary a mention of McKinley Morganfield in the credits--shouldn't Muddy's estate get some money out of this?

I also wondered about this.

Have the publishing rights timed out or something?

[Van Basten II]

Shouldn't Bob give Muddy Waters half a songwriting credit on the songs where he uses the music for "Rollin' and Tumblin"--he uses the title of that one too--and "Trouble No More"? They are not just influenced by the originals--to my ears they are the originals with new lyrics. But nary a mention of McKinley Morganfield in the credits--shouldn't Muddy's estate get some money out of this?

I also wondered about this.

Have the publishing rights timed out or something?

Even if they did, fact is that the music in not all originals by Dylan and it should be acknowledged in some way.

[Matthew]

Shouldn't Bob give Muddy Waters half a songwriting credit on the songs where he uses the music for "Rollin' and Tumblin"--he uses the title of that one too--and "Trouble No More"? They are not just influenced by the originals--to my ears they are the originals with new lyrics. But nary a mention of McKinley Morganfield in the credits--shouldn't Muddy's estate get some money out of this?

I also wondered about this.

Have the publishing rights timed out or something?

Even if they did, fact is that the music in not all originals by Dylan and it should be acknowledged in some way.

Dylan has yet to acknowledge that he's stolen from anyone, ever, not even Henry Timrod, who Dylan has lifted whole lines from. I'm a huge Dylan fan, but I don't understand this part of his personality, at all.

[Alexander]

As T.S. Eliot once noted, "Immature poets borrow. Mature poets steal."

[Matthew]

As T.S. Eliot once noted, "Immature poets borrow. Mature poets steal."

Then Dylan is a very mature poet. I often wonder if this is one of the reasons why Dylan dosen't win the Nobel Prize.

[HolyStitt]

Dylan has yet to acknowledge that he's stolen from anyone, ever, not even Henry Timrod, who Dylan has lifted whole lines from. I'm a huge Dylan fan, but I don't understand this part of his personality, at all.

Quite true.

In the past, the search for sources almost became part of music.

I would have thought in the present case that Dylan would have appropriately credited the source since they are so obvious and the fact that one of the songs is being used in an iPod commercial.

Even with his lack of crediting the sources, I still enjoy the CD.

[medjuck]

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with Trouble No More; which Dylan song appropriates it?

BTW Has Dylan ever given credit for songs he's "borrowed". He does discuss doing so, but for example does Dominic Behan (sp?) get royalties for God on Our Side which borrows the melody of Patriot Game?

[Neal Pomea]

Would someone please elaborate on royalties and why Dylan should pay Muddy Waters' estate etc. royalties for these adaptations?

At most, wouldn't his publisher pay a fee to the publisher of Waters' work for permission to make a derivative work, and the publisher of Waters' work then pay a share of the permission fee to the estate? That is not a royalty at all.

It doesn't at all seem to fit the definition of royalties I find in the Oxford English Dictionary:

"A payment made to an author, editor, or composer for each copy of a book, piece of music, etc., sold by the publisher, or for the representation of a play."

But the publisher of Waters' work has not sold a copy in this instance, and Dylan has not. The publisher might only charge for permission to adapt the copyrighted work.

I worked in print publishing, and we never paid a share of a permission fee to any author. We paid them royalties, i.e. a percentage of the money made on each copy of their work sold.

Edited September 6, 2006 by It Should be You

[Matthew]

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with Trouble No More; which Dylan song appropriates it?

BTW Has Dylan ever given credit for songs he's "borrowed". He does discuss doing so, but for example does Dominic Behan (sp?) get royalties for God on Our Side which borrows the melody of Patriot Game?

Someday Baby is the song based upon Trouble No More. Quite clear what's its based on.

Would someone please elaborate on royalties and why Dylan should pay Muddy Waters' estate etc. royalties for these adaptations?

At most, wouldn't his publisher pay a fee to the publisher of Waters' work for permission to make a derivative work, and the publisher of Waters' work then pay a share of the permission fee to the estate?

I have no idea about the legal issue, or moral issues regarding what Dylan is doing. I think what is happening is that we hear what the song is based on, and hearing that, think that the orignal writer needs to be acknowledged. It kind of seems in the same league as Page/Plant/Trad, if you know what I mean.

[medjuck]

Would someone please elaborate on royalties and why Dylan should pay Muddy Waters' estate etc. royalties for these adaptations?

At most, wouldn't his publisher pay a fee to the publisher of Waters' work for permission to make a derivative work, and the publisher of Waters' work then pay a share of the permission fee to the estate? That is not a royalty at all.

It doesn't at all seem to fit the definition of royalties I find in the Oxford English Dictionary:

"A payment made to an author, editor, or composer for each copy of a book, piece of music, etc., sold by the publisher, or for the representation of a play."

But the publisher of Waters' work has not sold a copy in this instance, and Dylan has not. The publisher might only charge for permission to adapt the copyrighted work.

I worked in print publishing, and we never paid a share of a permission fee to any author. We paid them royalties, i.e. a percentage of the money made on each copy of their work sold.

Composers of music are paid (via their publishers) per unit sold. The rate is set by congress(!) and I believe that it is commonly called a royalty. If the Muddy Waters publishers can show that Dylan is using a melody on which they hold copyright then they are owed money for every disc sold or downloaded.

Edited September 6, 2006 by medjuck

[Alexander]

Dylan has been "sampling" folk/blues melodies and lyrics since the beginning of his career. That's part of his genius: He takes preexisting materials and reworks them into something new. Truth be told, this is what *all* artists do to a greater or lesser extent. This is why I've never had a problem with the practice of hip-hop DJs sampling other songs in their material. The question isn't: "Where did you steal that from?" but rather "How artfully did you use what you stole?"

Listen to "The Anthology of American Folk Music." It's the source of many Dylan lyrics and melodies. "Man On The Street" takes it's melody from "The Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn" (both songs begin with the lyric "I'll tell you a song, it ain't very long..."). "I Wish I Were A Mole In The Ground" contains the lyric, "I don't like a railroad man...He'll kill you when he can...Drink up your blood like wine..." This lyric comes up in Dylan's "Stuck Inside of Mobile With The Memphis Blues Again" when Dylan says that "Railroad men drink up your blood like wine." Another example is Richard Brown's "James Alley Blues" in which Brown says that "I'll give you sugar for sugar, and give you salt for salt." Dylan uses "sugar for sugar and salt for salt" in "Crash on the Levee (Down In The Flood)." Then there's "Girl From The North Country" which has the same source as Simon and Garfunkle's "Scarborough Fair." These are just a few examples. There are many others. How does what Dylan does on "Modern Times" differ from these earlier examples (other than the fact that they are all folk tunes that are long out of copyright, if they were ever copyrighted at all).

[Hot Ptah]

Dylan has been "sampling" folk/blues melodies and lyrics since the beginning of his career. That's part of his genius: He takes preexisting materials and reworks them into something new. Truth be told, this is what *all* artists do to a greater or lesser extent. This is why I've never had a problem with the practice of hip-hop DJs sampling other songs in their material. The question isn't: "Where did you steal that from?" but rather "How artfully did you use what you stole?"

Listen to "The Anthology of American Folk Music." It's the source of many Dylan lyrics and melodies. "Man On The Street" takes it's melody from "The Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn" (both songs begin with the lyric "I'll tell you a song, it ain't very long..."). "I Wish I Were A Mole In The Ground" contains the lyric, "I don't like a railroad man...He'll kill you when he can...Drink up your blood like wine..." This lyric comes up in Dylan's "Stuck Inside of Mobile With The Memphis Blues Again" when Dylan says that "Railroad men drink up your blood like wine." Another example is Richard Brown's "James Alley Blues" in which Brown says that "I'll give you sugar for sugar, and give you salt for salt." Dylan uses "sugar for sugar and salt for salt" in "Crash on the Levee (Down In The Flood)." Then there's "Girl From The North Country" which has the same source as Simon and Garfunkle's "Scarborough Fair." These are just a few examples. There are many others. How does what Dylan does on "Modern Times" differ from these earlier examples (other than the fact that they are all folk tunes that are long out of copyright, if they were ever copyrighted at all).

He does more here than lift an old folk tune and put words to it (which Woody Guthrie often did), or borrow a few phrases and turn it into a unique work. If you listen to Muddy Waters' "Trouble No More" on his Chess box, or any greatest hits package with his recording of it, and then listen to Dylan's "Someday Baby" on "Modern Times"--they are the same song. Dylan has changed/added a few words, but not much. It reminds me of an elementary school student who copies an encyclopedia article for an assignment and changes three words in it to not get "caught."

Same thing with Muddy Waters' "Rollin' and Tumblin'". Dylan even steals the title of this one. It is the same song. Dylan is not using it as mere base material for a unique lyrical quest, as Dylan was doing in the "Blonde on Blonde" era.

Are the copyrights expired on "Rollin' and Tumblin'" and "Trouble No More"? I don't know that. When the Allman Brothers record "Trouble No More" they always credit it to Muddy Waters--are they just dumb?

[Neal Pomea]

Thank, medjuk! The OED entry only confused me about royalties.

In any case, I received my copy yesterday and listened to it in light of Dylan's remarks about the sound quality of cds. I guess he thought it sounded better in the studio than the final product.

I think Ain't Talking is the song to talk about.

[rostasi]

Someday Baby by "Bob Dylan"

I don't care what you do, I don't care what you say

I don't care where you go or how long you stay

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

Well you take my money and you turn it out

You fill me up with nothin' but self doubt

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

When I was young, driving was my crave

You drive me so hard, almost to the grave

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

I'm so hard pressed, my mind tied up in knots

I keep recycling the same old thoughts

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

So many good things in life that I overlooked

I don't know what to do now, you got me so hooked

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

Well, I don't want to brag, but I'm gonna ring your neck

When all else fails I'll make it a matter of self respect

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

You can take your clothes put 'em in a sack

You goin' down the road, baby and you can't come back

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

I tried to be friendly, I tried to be kind

I'm gonna drive you from your home, just like I was driven from mine

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

Living this way ain't a natural thing to do

Why was I born to love you?

Someday baby, you ain't gonna worry po' me any more

Words and music by Bob Dylan

Copyright 2006 Special Rider Music

Someday Baby

Lyrics: Lightnin' Hopkins

Music: Lightnin' Hopkins

Don't care when you go

How long you stay

That good kind treatment

Will bring you back some day

Someday baby

You ain't gonna worry my mind any more

Just one thing

Really give me the blues

I wore a hole

In my last pair of shoes

Someday baby

You ain't gonna worry my mind any more

Don't like everybody

In my neighbourhood

I got a no good woman

Don't do me no good

Someday baby

I ain't gonna worry my mind any more

Keep on betting

But the dice won't pass

Want to leave here running

Almost too fast

Someday baby

You ain't gonna worry my mind no more

Verse A

Keep on betting

But the dice won't pass

Going to leave here running

Almost too fast

Someday baby

You ain't gonna worry my mind any more

Verse B

Don't like everybody

In my neighbourhood

Got a low down woman

Don't mean me no good

Someday baby

You ain't gonna worry my mind any more

Oh someday baby

You ain't gonna worry my mind any more

[Hot Ptah]

Dylan has been "sampling" folk/blues melodies and lyrics since the beginning of his career. That's part of his genius: He takes preexisting materials and reworks them into something new. Truth be told, this is what *all* artists do to a greater or lesser extent. This is why I've never had a problem with the practice of hip-hop DJs sampling other songs in their material. The question isn't: "Where did you steal that from?" but rather "How artfully did you use what you stole?"

Listen to "The Anthology of American Folk Music." It's the source of many Dylan lyrics and melodies. "Man On The Street" takes it's melody from "The Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn" (both songs begin with the lyric "I'll tell you a song, it ain't very long..."). "I Wish I Were A Mole In The Ground" contains the lyric, "I don't like a railroad man...He'll kill you when he can...Drink up your blood like wine..." This lyric comes up in Dylan's "Stuck Inside of Mobile With The Memphis Blues Again" when Dylan says that "Railroad men drink up your blood like wine." Another example is Richard Brown's "James Alley Blues" in which Brown says that "I'll give you sugar for sugar, and give you salt for salt." Dylan uses "sugar for sugar and salt for salt" in "Crash on the Levee (Down In The Flood)." Then there's "Girl From The North Country" which has the same source as Simon and Garfunkle's "Scarborough Fair." These are just a few examples. There are many others. How does what Dylan does on "Modern Times" differ from these earlier examples (other than the fact that they are all folk tunes that are long out of copyright, if they were ever copyrighted at all).

I have thought about it some more. Your post has caused me to lose all respect for Dylan from the beginning of his career. I will not be able to listen to his music without thinking that it is all a ripoff of one type or another.

[Matthew]

Thank, medjuk! The OED entry only confused me about royalties.

In any case, I received my copy yesterday and listened to it in light of Dylan's remarks about the sound quality of cds. I guess he thought it sounded better in the studio than the final product.

I think Ain't Talking is the song to talk about.

Agreed, Ain't Talking is the best song Dylan has wrote since Blood On The Tracks; it has a lot of different levels of meaning. This verse reminds me of Mary Magdalene meeting Jesus in the garden from the Gospel of John.

As I walked out in the mystic garden

On a hot summer day, a hot summer lawn

Excuse me, ma'am, I beg your pardon

There's no one here, the gardener is gone

[Elissa]

I quite like Modern Times and have also fallen headlong for the last tune, Ain't Talking. In the edition we got, it comes with another cd that has a fabulous hour from his Theme Time radio show all about baseball, with a Sonny Rollins tune thrown in for good measure.* It also has an awesomely cool 4-song DVD that makes this package quite a deal.

He's on a tour of minor league ball fields at the moment and we caught his show at Cooperstown over the weekend. Was great too; weather held out until just after he finished his two hour set. Three bands opened for him, the best of which was the amazing Junior Brown, who is certainly up there with the finest guitarists around. His axe is a combined six string and steel, each with its own neck. Elana James and the Continental Two were first up - she has a really pretty voice and a fucking great bass player. Fun music, with a real kinda Kentucky mountain vibe, though they're from Austin. Jimmy Vaughn also played, with a singer who looked like a stone cold junkie, spitting venom and attitude with some mean n' greazy blues.

And Bob gave a performance that really opened up as he went along - he got happier and more loose and comfortable. Seemed at the end to have truly enjoyed the gig. Played mostly older tunes (sadly, not Ain't Talking) in a kinda cowboy blues style that was cogent throughout the set, but fairly rendered all the old material in a wholly new way. Lay Lady Lay, Rolling Stone, Everybody Must Get, All I Really Want To Do - that sort of stuff. And played for about 2 hours, with nary a nod to the audience until the end, when he took a really elegant bow - as you see more in the theater than at rock shows. Hugely enjoyable, and again, a lot of music for the money. Tix were $45; later this month he's playing at a colusium with the Raconteurs - tix are $180!

*which he introduces with the creative untruth that Rollins was called Newk cause he looked like Don Newcomb! I always thought it was because he was dubbed the new Coleman Hawkins: the New Hawk, or Newk.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Elis

[rostasi]

Dylan has been "sampling" folk/blues melodies and lyrics since the beginning of his career. That's part of his genius: He takes preexisting materials and reworks them into something new. Truth be told, this is what *all* artists do to a greater or lesser extent. This is why I've never had a problem with the practice of hip-hop DJs sampling other songs in their material. The question isn't: "Where did you steal that from?" but rather "How artfully did you use what you stole?"

I agree with your comment about the Anthology of American Folk Music, but I think

sampling is one thing - stealing (taking credit for music and/or lyrics) is another.

With sampling, one's not claiming to have written the song sampled.

[king ubu]

I have thought about it some more. Your post has caused me to lose all respect for Dylan from the beginning of his career. I will not be able to listen to his music without thinking that it is all a ripoff of one type or another.

Are you as rigid in judging your own self, too? Sorry to hear you won't be able to listen to none of that jazz any more, it's all a ripoff... maybe build yourself a monochord, instead of listeing to all those folks ripping off each other?

[Noj]

Based on what I've read of his commentary from his radio show, I would think Bob would be anxious to give credit where credit is due. In fact, I would think all artists "sampling" in some way would want to give recognition to those who inspired them, out of respect.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Noj

[Neal Pomea]

Agreed, Ain't Talking is the best song Dylan has wrote since Blood On The Tracks; it has a lot of different levels of meaning. This verse reminds me of Mary Magdalene meeting Jesus in the garden from the Gospel of John.

As I walked out in the mystic garden

On a hot summer day, a hot summer lawn

Excuse me, ma'am, I beg your pardon

There's no one here, the gardener is gone

Yeah, I caught that reference. Strangely enough, it also reminded me of a song Hank Williams used to do as Luke the Drifter, Be Careful of Stones that You Throw, a sort of recitation (written by Bonnie Dodd). It's something Dylan did on the Genuine Basement Tapes, never officially released. The "gone gardener" is the voice of compassion.

A neighbor was passing my garden one time

She stopped and I knew right away

That it was gossip, not flowers, she had on her mind

And this is what I heard my neighbor say:

"That girl down the street should be run from our midst

She drinks and she talks quite a lot

She knows not to speak to my child or to me."

My neighbor then smiled and I thought:

CHORUS

A tongue can accuse and carry bad news

The seeds of distrust, it will sow

But unless you've made no mistakes in your life

Be careful of stones that you throw.

(SPOKEN)

A car speeded by and the screamin' of brakes

A sound that made my blood chill

For my neighbor's one child had been pulled from the path

And saved by a girl lying still.

The child was unhurt and my neighbor cried out:

"Oh! who was that brave girl so sweet?"

I covered the crushed, broken body and said:

"The bad girl who lived down the street."

CHORUS

(Every Grain of Sand might be his most highly regarded song since BOTT.)

[Hot Ptah]

I have thought about it some more. Your post has caused me to lose all respect for Dylan from the beginning of his career. I will not be able to listen to his music without thinking that it is all a ripoff of one type or another.

Are you as rigid in judging your own self, too? Sorry to hear you won't be able to listen to none of that jazz any more, it's all a ripoff... maybe build yourself a monochord, instead of listeing to all those folks ripping off each other?

I find it fascinating that some posters on this board and also on Blindman's Blues board are quite passionate about defending Bob from these issues. What has Bob done to inspire such devotion?

I have been a big Dylan fan for over 35 years and have over 100 of his albums, but I do not feel that he is always right, that he must be defended and that his attackers must be vanquished. But some people seem to feel that way. I genuinely wonder why.

[king ubu]

Hey, I'm not at all a devoted fan... but borrowing, stealing and copying has always been an integral and important part of the arts... I was just a wee bit irritated by your rigorose statement!

Anyway, I'd of course prefer it if the disc would list the other/real composers, too... a statement such as "based on [...] by [...]" would be fine... but Lee's "Thingin'" is his tune, too, and reference is only given in liner notes, not in composer credits.