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Recommendations for a pianist switching to B3?


maren

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B3-er:

Any instructional books, tapes you would recommend to one (me) who has played the piano for years but is entirely new to Hammond B3? (I play a real pipe organ for church many years ago in high school, and Farfisa a bit in a rock band back then).

Thanks -- any advice will be much appreciated -- don't worry, I don't think I'll pose much competition!

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There's a nice series of videos by BT Productions. They feature Bill Heid (one of my favorite organists) among others. It's a nice series that really teach you the basics of the instrument, from how to turn the thing on, to standard drawbar settings, to licks and basslines. Highly recommended for the beginner.

Other than that, I would say listen to all the Jimmy Smith you can. That's the starting point, IMO.

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thanks Jimmy -- that BT series sounds like exactly what I need.

Listening to Jimmy Smith is what has gotten me on this kick in the first place, of course! And then I recently heard cuts by Richard "Groove" Holmes on the radio (WBGO, Newark) -- really grabbed me.

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Groove Holmes is the shiznit! He started out on organ... he didn't switch over from piano, so there's something about his playing that is different from everyone else. Number one, his basslines are so solid and swinging and he was an absolute monster on the pedals. Any of this recordings from the 60s are gems.

Check out some of Bill Heid's records, too. He's the best kept secret in jazz organ. I can't believe how much press Tony Monaco has gotten and Bill is still so obscure. Don't get me wrong, Tony is a great player, but Bill Heid is a fantasic player too and composes some really memorable songs.

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I'd love to master or just get started on the B3. However it is hard to lost those years of playing like a pianist.

We have the new keyboard by Technics at work, the KN 7000 (Oscar Peterson just bought one from us). There's some awesome organ sounds and even a digital drawbar. I can sound like an organist a bit on this.

But I still have to learn to pad, be more economical, and solo differently.

BTW - what the heck do you do with your left hand? Pour a drink? B)

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In the traditional style of jazz organ, (aka the Jimmy Smith style) the left hand plays bass.

"Well what do the feet do, then?!" Ah... here's one of the secrets of the trade. You play bass with your feet, too. What's the point of that? Well, the left hand sustains the note. The feet tap the same note on the pedal board, adding an attack to the front of the note, not unlike a bass string being plucked. You can also add heavy accents to the bass line by holding the pedal down longer.

Playing just bass pedals on a Hammond usually sound like poo. There are some players that can do it and make it sound great, but they are few and far between. The Jimmy Smith style is/was used by most players... Patterson, McGriff, McDuff, Holmes, Patton, Young, Earland, etc. Shirley Scott plays all pedals on that Strata-East record. Barbara Dennerlein has MIDI-fied pedals. There are exceptions for sure, but most use the tap method.

The main reason, I think, is that to get a really swingin' bass line at a fast tempo, you'd really have to use two feet. And then how do you control volume? There's no foot available for the volume pedal if both are playing pedals. And as you know, the organ is not velocity sensitive! :)

Some people just tap one note on the pedal board for the "same" effect. It doesn't sound the same. At least not to me. Plus you can't do accents very well that way.

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Thanks for the left hand advice.

What about sessions where you have a bassist? At some of the blues gigs I'd like to swith from piano to organ on my Roland FP3. There I don't know what to do with the left, so it does not sound too muddy. Soloing on my right is also different - you have to get the stock phases and effects down as well, something you really need a real B3 for!

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There are definately things solo-wise you can do on piano that you can't do on organ and vice versa. Just study some Jimmy Smith records and you'll know what to do.

As far as what to do with your left hand with a bassist, same thing you would if you're playing piano. Hit some chords. Check out Shirley Scott. She recorded with a bassist 90% of the time and didn't use a guitarist, so she comped chords behind herself.

But, if you're playing a synth B3, comping behind yourself is kind of hard. The Hammond has two manuals, remember, and Shirley had two different drawbar settings for each manual. She had a lighter, softer, duller sound on the bottom manual to comp with and her brighter, more percussive sound on the top manual for solos. If your keyboard can do a split, that might be the best way to achieve something similair.

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Thanks Jim.

I guess you do need 2 manuals.

The hardest part for a piano player is losing the effect of sustain. Perhaps it concentrates your solos. Another thing pianist don't worry about is volume control, which is something that adds alot of contour to the organ's sound. When I had my Rhodes, I used a type of wah-wah pedal to get that phat funk/fusion sound. It took a bit to get good at it.

BTW - I mentioned the Technics KN 7000 which I've access to. Have you seen these? Fantastic organ sounds as well as a digital drawbar.

http://www.technics.com/kn7000.html

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Garrison,

It's really all about memorizing patterns. Obviously, when you're not soloing and just comping, you can devote more attention to the left hand because the right is just hitting chords. But with soloing, you develop bass line patterns and just switch and mix and match. At least, that's how I do it. So it's not totally improvised.

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B3-er pretty much said it all. My only advice on playing organ bass is to keep it simple at first. You'll learn pretty fast that a simple effective, repetitive bassline wins every time at first. Forget the fancy stuff right now. Save "Groove" Holmes and Leon Spencer Jr. for another day. Listen to Jimmy Smith or Jack McDuff for nice, simple repetitive basslines. You'll hear certain patterns they do over and over again. Listen especially when they're soloing...that's when their basslines will be at their most basic and repetitive. This is the brain's survival instinct so it doesn't explode while the right hand is soloing.

Stop reading this right now...go out and buy Jack McDuff's "Tough Duff" CD....

...O.K. Now that you're back. Put on the last track, the title track "Tough Duff." It's what you should learn in jazz organ 101. A medium shuffle in F. LEARN THIS BASSLINE!!!! I'm not shitting you. This is the very first bassline I ever learned, and it has served me well ever since. Practice this for about six months(no it's not a joke and I'm not exagerrating. you've GOT to do it that long to get it right). Until it feels like you could do it in your sleep. You'll need that second-nature, muscle-memory ability to play basslines. Start with the bassline only. Work on that slowly, slowly, slowly. You'll see and hear the patterns in there. When you feel a little comfortable playing a simple left-hand bassline(give it 6-8 weeks), add a simple repetitive two-note comp in your right hand. Practice this for a long, long, long time(2 months). When you feel a little comfortable doing that...try a simple solo, nothing big. Believe me you'll fuck it up and drop the bassline pretty quickly....Now go back to step 1 and start all over again.

Another thing. Don't worry about pedals (if you have them) yet. That's a whole 'nother mountain to climb. You've got to crawl before you can walk. Don't confuse yourself with too much too soon. The worst thing an organist can do is play garbage with dropped basslines, senseless soloing and bad time. This shit isn't easy, if it was more people would be able to do it and do it decently. It takes a lot of dedication and some natural ability at it.

Keep it very simple. It might seem overwhelming at first. But don't get discouraged. If you WANT to do it you will. If you half-ass want to try it because it might be fun at the end of band practice, forget it. Good luck and buy "Tough Duff" NOW..... :D

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Soul Stream,

Do you remember the moment you got done with a solo and realized, "Shit, my left hand was kickin' bass that whole time and I didn't even think about it!" I do. I used to play in a trio with my father on guitar and the dad of my best friend's girlfriend (old farts!) and I remember playing a solo over an F blues in practice with them, getting done with the solo and it hit me like a ton of bricks.

"I just played a whole solo without fudging the bassline!!!"

I remember when I hit that point in my pedal playing, too. Great Moments of Playing Organ!

It's fun stuff. The instrument is much more subtle than people think if you want to play it "right". The first bassline I ever learned was Jimmy's bass during the first couple bars of "The Sermon". Actually, I learned the bass line and the chords he was comping and chomped on that for months.

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That's funny B3-er.... For you it was The Sermon. For me it was Tough Duff. Both are medium blues shuffles in F. It's really the perfect thing to start on in my opinion. Especially something like those two songs. Tough Duff was nice for me because there was vibes in place of guitar, so there was nothing to obscure the bassline. It's crystal clear on that recording.

As far as remembering when I could first do it.... I remember after initially trying it thinking that I would NEVER be able to do it. It seemed almost impossible at first. Plus, I started on organ. I had no knowledge of the keyboard at all when I started. So, it just proves that determination is a big factor in mastering the concept. I remember learning the head to "Groove's Groove" from the Soul Message LP. That was the first "soloing" I did. Just the notes on the head. I've got a gig tonight, and I'm as excited about it as the first time I ever played. It's always a pleasure to play the organ. (no matter how heavy and hard to load and un-load it is!!!) :D

Edited by Soul Stream
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Yes, playing organ is truly a joy. It's so much fun to be kickin' a bass line and comping or soloing with your other hand. Your whole body is involved and it's like playing drums... there's no way to not be moving around and smiling! I've had the opportunity to play my B3 three nights in a row (going for four tonight!) and it's been fantastic!

Wednesday the trio had a restaurant gig that went well and we had a lot of fun. Thursday Joe and I got called for a pick-me up gig with an alto player and even though nobody was in the joint, and the drummer showed up only for the last set, we had a blast! And last night, since the organ was already in my van, I used it with my R&B band. Despite having some MAJOR technical problems that I was thankfully able to resolve (Joe, let's not drop the Leslie again... :) ), there's something about that sound that just fills up the room and is so much more satisfying than any shitty module or simulator. And I love the looks it gets from people. Most don't know what it is. And those that do freak out! :g

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Yeah, I'm going to load and unload the beast for the fourth time this week. Of course 2 gigs at the same place seperated by a gig elsewhere :angry: , so I couldn't leave it. Glad to hear you're playing a lot. I've been playing more than usual myself in the last 6 weeks, and the next month looks good so far. Hopefully, the pace will continue. I helped bring down my good friend Adam Scone along with his band the Sugarman Three for gigs in Houston and Austin at the beginning of April. I'm opening, so I'm glad I'm playing a lot so as I'll not be rusty.... :D

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B3-r and Soul Stream,Wow! Thanks for clearing that up!

I don't play a lick of organ, but I remember the first time I tried playing bass lines at the same time as I tried to play an improvised right hand part on the piano. Let's just say it was very uninspiring if you had to listen to it!

In the end, I ended up playing a few pet patterns with the left hand and it was still hard enough! Now I know, At least, I was on the right track anyway!

You guys are my heros! :D

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  • 2 months later...

So how goes it Garrison? Have you been practicing? I must say, I've been having a lot fun lately with the ol' B3. The trio did a gig at our regular haunt in Grand Rapids (Billy's Lounge) this past Tuesday and we packed the joint. Had chicks dancing, people clapping, it was crazy. Best quote of the night:

"You guys are the world's most danceable jazz group!"

:party:

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I had a tough one last night. Right before we hit, the club owner (actually a real great guy) came up and said..."so...more funk, less jazz tonight. Right?" It really took me by surprise since he's usually a real hands-off club owner. However, I've been starting a regular gig there and the turnout has been dismal. So I can't really blame him too much. But it was a drag. Also, it's hard to do when you only have about a 6 funk songs in your set list.

Anyway, then we got up and the B3 died after 3 songs. It couldn't be revived, and had to call it quits. REALLY a drag because the club was packed due to a street festival that was happening. I've never had the B go out to the point where it couldn't be revived on the gig.

I lost money on the gig because I paid the sidmen the full amount. Also, now I've got some major organ repair coming up. All to be done before my next gig Tuesday. And I have no money.

Ahhh.... But for some reason, I'm not too bummed out because I like playing so much.

Wish I could have been at YOUR gig B3-er, sounds like a blast. Hope it's a trend! :D

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Damn, man! What do you think is wrong with the beast?! The last freakout I had I thought it was the organ but it turned out to be the Leslie. I was getting a very low volume gurgling sound from the organ and I thought it was broken because when I took it out of the van that night it came all the way out on it's own for some reason and smacked the pavement.

It turned out to be a load resistor in the Leslie that came undone. Soldered it back in and voila!

I hope yours isn't too fucked up. How are your tech skills?

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I'm not sure what's wrong. It's not the leslie because I changed amps and it kept dying. Changed out the tubes in the organ preamp, but nothing. Aside from that, but tech skills are horrible...tubes, oil, and an occassional obvious solder is about it for me.

I had to call the "man" out for a service call on Monday since I've got problems with my A102 at the house too. Figured I'd bite the credit bullet and kill two birds with one stone. One thing's for sure, I need it fixed, and fixed right, by Tues. I've got residency gigs on tuesdays and thursdays(maybe not for long), so I can't really have it sitting in a repairman's garage for 2 weeks.

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So what is it actually doing? It's on but no sound? I'm curious to know what you're tech finds.

I've had to do serious repair work in the field on mine. One of these days I'm going to get the manual and find an old junker and tear the whole thing down from top to bottom and put it back together. I really want to learn everything about them.

Which brings me to another topic that Joe G and I were discussing on the way to a gig: Why don't more pianists learn how to tune pianos? We were listening to that new Von Freeman record and the piano Jason Moran is playing has out of tune octaves in the midrange. Really nasty sounding. Than we put on Peter Bernstein's newest disc on Criss Cross and Brad Meldhau's piano was out of tune as well!!!!

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