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Kenny Dorham unissued sessions


brownie

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JSngry thread on J.R. Mont(e)rose elsewhere was a reminder that Monterose was part of

Kenny Dorham's Jazz Prophets. Beside the BN Cafe Bohemia sessions, the Jazz

Prophets recorded an album for ABC-Paramount in April 1956. This was released

as 'Kenny Dorham and the Jazz Prophets Volume 1'.

A second session was recorded in July 1956 (with Monterose, Bobby Timmons?,

Sam Jones and Arthur Edgehill). This was supposed to be Volume 2 but has remained

unissued.

I also remember reading an item in Down Beat in the early '60s that Kenny Dorham

also recorded for UA (but I may be wrong of this). This was not the KD 'Matador'

date with McLean. There was a photo accompanying the DB story. Can't recall who else

was on that date.

That session also remains unissued. It's not even listed in the Lord discography.

Anybody knows what happened to these sessions?

It's about time to have them issued.

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Brownie,

Are you sure there was a Jazz Prophets Volume 2 recorded? I was under the impression that Volume 2 never existed and never was recorded. The Volume 1 title was just wishful thinking. But I could be mistaken; I did not research this.

Claude Schlouch in Marseille has a KD discography out. Perhaps this will shed some light.

Bertrand.

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The session for Volume 2 is listed in both the Claude Schlouch and Bo Raftegard discographies of Kenny Dorham.

Both have a note that the tape is believed lost.

Now I'm sure I heard somewhere but I can't recall where that the session never took place.

When the Dorham was issued as half of a double LP it was paired with the Sonny Criss Peacock date. Do the sleeve notes to this issue throw any light?

John Delaney

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Don't forget this one...

March 19, 1961

KD, Charles Davis (baritone sax), Kenny Drew, Grant Green, Wilbur Ware, possibly Philly Joe Jones

Mason Dixon Line (tk. 9)

Blues Lament (tk. 20)

Cross 'D' Track (tk. 24)

Blue Ching (tk. 26)

Spadesville (tk. 27)

9 1/2 Street (tk. 31)

All takes "rejected" acording to the 1988 edition of the Ruppli / Cuscuna BN DISCOGRAPHY. (Any new info in the revised edition, BTW?)

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Yes, but why? All I recall is M. Cuscuna indicating that the session was "not for release", but that, for me, is not much of an explanation...

Presumably Cuscuna means that it sucks and will NEVER see the light of day...over his dead body. Any other sessions out there the MC has roundly rejected in such a manner?

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JR Monterose told me they did record a second date, and it was better than the first (musicians often claim their unissued work is better than the material you can hear :o ). Cuscuna is a HUGE KD fan and the second date was high on his priority list when he got in the ABC vaults over 25 years ago, but he assured me it was lost.

Mike is such a fan he hired KD to play his high school prom. If he says the stuff is rejected (an unissuable), I'd take his word for it. KD had chops problems around this time and Charles Davis's intonation is always a "sometime thing". Everyone else in the band had personality/substance problems - looks like a recipe for a bummer to me.

Sometimes producers protect artists' reputations by not releasing the stuff in spite of fans "right to make their own decisions". I respect this. I understand why writers burn manuscripts.

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Yes, but why?  All I recall is M. Cuscuna indicating that the session was "not for release", but that, for me, is not much of an explanation...

Presumably Cuscuna means that it sucks and will NEVER see the light of day...over his dead body. Any other sessions out there the MC has roundly rejected in such a manner?

There was a great thread back at the BNBB where Kevin B went through these one by one after discussing it with MC. There were logical reasons for rejecting these sessions. A couple of years later (this year, before the demise), someone resuscitated this thread and it made interesting reading comparing what came out. In listening to the Lost Sessions (which is not one my favorites), there was good reason for keeping these in the vaults. I think Michael has done a pretty good job in getting many of these out although obviously there may be some more in there. I seem to recall Dan Gould or somebody starting a thread about another Grant Green session that ought to be reissued.

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Sometimes producers protect artists' reputations by not releasing the stuff in spite of fans "right to make their own decisions". I respect this. I understand why writers burn manuscripts.

Thanks Chuck. I respect this too.

Now what about that other recording session (for United Artists?)? This was documented

in Down Beat (wish I could dig up the copy) but never materialized as an album.

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I seem to recall Dan Gould or somebody starting a thread about another Grant Green session that ought to be reissued.

I think that was a Grant Green/Gene Harris session with Harris on organ ... and Michael/via Kevin made it very clear that it was completely unworthy of release. :(

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When the Dorham was issued as half of a double LP it was paired with the Sonny Criss Peacock date.  Do the sleeve notes to this issue throw any light?

Bob Porter mentioned in the liner notes the tapes of the second ABC session were nowhere to be found.

Edited by mikeweil
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Found some details about the unissued Kenny Dorham UA session I mentioned in my original post when I made a search through old Down Beat issues.

The February 5, 1959 DB (Shorty Rogers on cover) had this item:

'United Artists cut the Martin Williams 'History of the Jazz Trumpet' LP, with scoring by Bill Russo and blowing by veteran Ed Allen,

Joe Thomas, Emmett Berry, Kenny Dorham, Jimmy McPartland and Art Farmer.'

The next issue, March 19, 1959 (Maurice Chevalier on cover) has a photo from the session showing Farmer, Dorham, Thomas,

McPartland, Berry. Al Williams is at the piano. The caption adds: 'The LP, a survey of jazz trumpet playing, is titled The Jazz Trumpet'.

Now who's going to explore the UA vaults to find that gem?

Edited by brownie
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  • 2 years later...

Know only too well that we'll never hear that BN one!

Let's try to get the others out of wherever they are!

Hi guys, I registered here especially to tell you that I have that Kenny Dorham never released with Grant Green session album, and it's actually really good.

contact me if you want ! :)

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Expect:

1) A serious scolding from our board admin.

2) A flood of PMs

I am sure this session is quite good. I think this for this one the claim was that someone was off-mike; is this the case?

This is among a half-dozen Blue Note sessions that have been branded once and for all 'disasters' - the description seems to stick no matter what.

But elsewhere on this forum, there have been discussions of other unissued/rejected sessions that somehow 'slipped out', and apparently, they are not nearly as bad as you would think.

Then you have the 9/13/68 Lee Morgan session. For years, the buzzword was that it should be burned. Then, three tracks show up on The Sixth Sense and they hardly proved to be lighter-fluid worthy. Add in the many excellent tracks on the Andrew Hill Mosaic select that were initially rejected in the BN discographies ('Monkash' and 'Mahoganny', for example, which are fabulous IMHO) and you have a recipe for complete puzzlement, at least on my part.

The rejected/unissued Blue Note sessions situation remains a total mystery to me. I'll spare Chuck Nessa a posting and add the disclaimer that of course, I don't know what I'm talking about, having never worked inside the music biz.

Bertrand.

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Jim,

Since you seem to have heard it (the 3/19/61 KD session with Grant Green), could you confirm the following: is 'Blue Ching' the same composition as 'Blue Ching' recorded by the Messengers on 2/12/61. Based on the dates, I would think so.

I first heard this track on a Pisces vinyl, with the composer unknown. It sounded like a Timmons piece to me (especially the piano intro). Then, later, I saw it credited to KD and I was puzzled, until I saw that a piece with the same title was on the 3/19 session. I assumed that Cuscuna decided it must be a KD composition because of this.

Don Sickler may have been involved in the determination as well, since he publishes KD's music and recorded another tune from the 3/19 session ('Blues Lament', IIRC) on his KD tribute album.

Bertrand.

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I am sure this session is quite good. 

It's not. It's ok, nothing more.

Well, there seems to be a difference of opinion about that as our new member seems to think "it's actually really good." It would be nice to hear it but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

Edited by Brad
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I am sure this session is quite good. 

It's not. It's ok, nothing more.

Well, there seems to be a difference of opinion about that as our new member seems to think "it's actually really good." It would be nice to hear it but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

Well, "it's actually really good" in the sense that these are all fine-or-better players, so their "off days" are going to have a resonance that lesser players' "good days" would lack. So if you wanna go there with it, yeah, sure.

But trust me - KDs chops falter rather dramatically rather quickly, Davis' pitch is at least as "personal" as it's ever been, and the whole thing pretty much turns into a Grant Green session with "troublesome" horns about halfway through. Grant sounds just fine, but when did he ever not, at least in those days?

If you get it for free, enjoy it for what it is. But if you'd paid good money for it, you'd feel a little bit screwed. MC's decision is a sound one, but hey - that's what all this underground shit is for.

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Concerned about those who are joining unissued/rejected together in this thread. In the case of classic Blue Note, important to differentiate between "rejected" and "unissued". Very clearly done in the Ruppli Blue Note discography (and I'm sure the Lord, which I've never seen). Some amazing music was "unissued" for various reasons having to do with the marketplace. 'Jacknife' is an awesome album, remained reissued for 10+ years. As explained well by Chuck and others, "rejected" means deemed not worthy of release. One other famous "rejected" session that saw the light of day 35 years later was 'The Kicker' by Bobby Hutcherson, his first as a leader for BN.. Recorded with the same personnel as Grant Green's 'Idle Moments'. Sure, it sounds fine, but does anyone want to try to make the argument that it holds a candle to 'Idle Moments' or to Hutcherson's other releases as a leader from that period?

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