Caiman on Amazon

[Chuck Nessa]

still, how does Caiman offer THEE absolute lowest price AND still make $$$ after cutting in both Amazon & the credit card companies? pure volume?

That, and the fact that they get a nice profit on their shipping charge, since Media Mail for a CD is maybe a buck while they are getting $2.59 each. Brings their price more in line with a lot of other sellers.

First class for one cd is usually $1.25 - media mail is $1.59. Caiman also has the advantage of no inventory, very low overhead and a huge customer base via Amazon. From the looks of the corporate structure, they have a big tax advantage.

[JSngry]

http://blog.tmcnet.com/telecom-crm/2005/04...er-customer.asp

If they charge your credit card immediately & then dick around for a while if they can't fill the order immediately and then make you ask for a refund, it's a no-brainer - they're making interest on the money. How many times a day this scenario is repeated, I haven't a clue, because some of y'all have had nothing but good experiences. But there's definitely money to be made doing that. Quite an old scheme, really, and legitmate businesses do it as well. The mortgage comapny I work for is very conscious of getting their deposits in by 2PM instead of later in the day/night becasue of this "float".

But mortgage companies work on revenue in the tens of millions of dollars. When you add all those deposits together, one extra day of interest makes a huge difference. Not so much when you're talking about one CD, even if its a thousand such CDs a week.

Besides, anybody who charges the card before shipping ain't getting my business, just because.

I take it then that you don't order from any Amazon Marketplace dealer then? Because the card is charged approximately one hour after you click "place order" on the Amazon site (since you can't cancel Marketplace orders so easily, they give you a little time to think it over). Once the money is collected, Amazon informs the seller, who is *supposed* to ship in a timely fashion. But they've charged your card long before shipping.

Goes to scale of both intent and time. No, Caiman won't be making the mega-bucks that my employer does, but I don't think that's their aim. My employer's a public company who's already one of the industry leaders. Caiman's most likely just some folk(s) in the VI raking it in with no worries, especially about legalities (the VI is also home to alot of those high $ toll-call services with seemingly American area codes, which is not really relevant to anything except that I don't think that the government-sanctioned "business ethics" of the VI & those of the US are on the same page) .

Also, even if it's just hundreds of CDs a week instead of thousands, you're talking weeks and months, not days, of holding other people's money on orders that will never be placed. If they gave refunds within the specified Amazon timefram, no, there probably wouldn't be much too much gain in it for them. But it seems clear that they drag out the refund process way past those parameters, and yes, it all adds up.

Only ordered from an Amazon Marketplace dealer once (not Caiman), some import Shonen Knife CDs for my daughter's birthday a few years ago. I held my breath the entire time. Well, we got some Shonen Knife CDs, but one of them wasn't the one we ordered. But she was happy, so I was happy. Still, I was leary of the whole process, and still am, unless it's a "known quantity" like Newberry.

I really don't like the billing before shipping thing. In this days of omnipresent EFTs, I don't think there's any justification for it.

[JSngry]

Alos, my employer services mortgages from the Virgin Islands. I've not seen one yet with a monthly payment of over $100.00. If that's any indication of the overall cost of living down there, then somebody could do really well raking in in an extra how-many-ever hundred/thousand/whatever a month of intrest on unfilled orders that have yet to been given refunds.

I'm not saying that the operation is a scam masquerading as legit (plenty of satisfied customer here). Just that they certainly seem to do business in such a way that "forthrightness" is not necessarily Priority Number One with them, and that they certainly seem to have no incentive (at this juncture) to make it so.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

http://blog.tmcnet.com/telecom-crm/2005/04...er-customer.asp

If they charge your credit card immediately & then dick around for a while if they can't fill the order immediately and then make you ask for a refund, it's a no-brainer - they're making interest on the money. How many times a day this scenario is repeated, I haven't a clue, because some of y'all have had nothing but good experiences. But there's definitely money to be made doing that. Quite an old scheme, really, and legitmate businesses do it as well. The mortgage comapny I work for is very conscious of getting their deposits in by 2PM instead of later in the day/night becasue of this "float".

Besides, anybody who charges the card before shipping ain't getting my business, just because.

Besides, I notice that they don't issue receipts themself. Whazzup w/that?

That assumes that your credit card company gives them the $$$ straightaway. No credit card company does that; they're trying to reduce the time they (actually) loan you money compared to the time in which they charge you interest. (If, that is, you pay interest and don't pay your CC debits as soon as asked. My CC company doesn't make any money off me except foreign exchange rip-offs.)

So the real way to deal with this is to cancel and get a refund as soon as Caiman say they've got a problem, which is likely to be before they get the money. No second chances. If you fuck around trying to get a sensible answer out of them, they've got your $$$ and you're paying interest on it.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Alos, my employer services mortgages from the Virgin Islands. I've not seen one yet with a monthly payment of over $100.00. If that's any indication of the overall cost of living down there, then somebody could do really well raking in in an extra how-many-ever hundred/thousand/whatever a month of intrest on unfilled orders that have yet to been given refunds.

I'm not saying that the operation is a scam masquerading as legit (plenty of satisfied customer here). Just that they certainly seem to do business in such a way that "forthrightness" is not necessarily Priority Number One with them, and that they certainly seem to have no incentive (at this juncture) to make it so.

There's no evidence that Caiman are anywhere other than Miami - Dan's seen them there. They're registered in VI but that doesn't imply a physical presence. It's just some kind of tax, regulation or reporting haven.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm not saying that Caiman aren't up to something. Anyone operating off-shore is diddling someone; that's what off-shore is FOR. But it's a legal diddle.

MG

[JSngry]

There's no evidence that Caiman are anywhere other than Miami - Dan's seen them there.

No, Dan's said that everything's shipped from there. Caiman themself refer to their "suppliers", which could mean anything, including a big distributor in Miami who services many clients, not just Caiman.

Agree that there's nothing inherently "sinister" about them, but I'm pretty close-to-the-vest when it comes to online transactions, and a company as "controversial" as Caiman is not one which engenders my confidence.

Edited February 11, 2007 by JSngry

[JSngry]

very very busy on the cruise today but let's start simple:

Who owns Caiman.com?

Clark Terry?

[neveronfriday]

Just noticed (I never looked before): The last shipments from Caiman D.C. came from Auckland, New Zealand? Not that I care. I've ordered so much cheap stuff from them when compared to the regular prices that I've saved enough for my luxury trip this upcoming summer.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

There's no evidence that Caiman are anywhere other than Miami - Dan's seen them there.

No, Dan's said that everything's shipped from there. Caiman themself refer to their "suppliers", which could mean anything, including a big distributor in Miami who services many clients, not just Caiman.

Agree that there's nothing inherently "sinister" about them, but I'm pretty close-to-the-vest when it comes to online transactions, and a company as "controversial" as Caiman is not one which engenders my confidence.

Can't be asked to look back, but Dan said he could show you an effin' big warehouse.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

Can't be asked to look back, but Dan said he could show you an effin' big warehouse.

MG

I don't think so.

[Dan Gould]

Can't be asked to look back, but Dan said he could show you an effin' big warehouse.

MG

I don't think so.

I offered to look for them next time I have a VO gig in Miami, and asked Clem to drop the "no stock" claim if I could show that they have a big ass warehouse.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Can't be asked to look back, but Dan said he could show you an effin' big warehouse.

MG

I don't think so.

I offered to look for them next time I have a VO gig in Miami, and asked Clem to drop the "no stock" claim if I could show that they have a big ass warehouse.

Sorry, misread you. Thanks Dan.

MG

[Niko]

Just noticed (I never looked before): The last shipments from Caiman D.C. came from Auckland, New Zealand? Not that I care. I've ordered so much cheap stuff from them when compared to the regular prices that I've saved enough for my luxury trip this upcoming summer.

i think some of the stuff i ordered from dvdlegacy via amazon came from auckland, too - maybe the ordinary transatlantic route? or maybe dvdlegacy and caiman are the same newzealandian (? ) firm...

not that I'd care either

[Ron S]

The much bigger question here that everyone else has missed so far is: who the hell is Claire ???

[JSngry]

According to http://blog.tmcnet.com/telecom-crm/2005/04...er-customer.asp Claire is a robot. And according to the same thread, Caiman and somplace called Abebooks seem to run hand-in-hand.

[robert h.]

I have to admit, I find the responses on the link provided to be pretty laughable, and typical of the internet.

Here's a few winners:

"I am at a loss as to how to even contact them"

You have to try email or telephone, both easily found. Telepathy and wishful thoughts will not work.

"I th,ink they have their people put false positive feedback on amazon.com"

That would be pretty expensive as you have to order something to do that - for which Caiman get charged by Amazon. Besides, if they are doing that, they could obviously do it much better.

"once they have "shipped" they can/will no longer cancel an order."

Wow. That person's has a firm grasp on the obvious.

"I have never felt so completely raped in a transaction."

Lynda, it's a CD girl! Get a life!!

For the record, Caiman - like dozens of other sellers on Amazon and Ebay - is a virtual store, it has zero stock. That really means absolutely nothing, it's very common today. What they DO have is a fairly efficient network of suppliers whose inventory is linked together and it is that inventory that is shown online. If the supplier's inventory isn't up to date - Caiman is not either.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that if there is a virtual seller with thousands of titles there is no physical location. There's nothing wrong with dropshipping. There's nothing wrong with not keeping stock yourself.

What there is often an issue with is the accuracy of the stock listing and the occasions where stock is listed without ANY supplier showing stock - and also, if the item is rare or OOP and a supplier's stock shows 1 copy, it is likely that is an error.

Sure, Caiman could be a hell of a lot better and should be. But it shouldn't be too hard reading through the feedback to figure out how Caiman operates and how to use it, everything one needs to know plainly stated.

1. Caiman is outstanding and dirt cheap for commonly available, in print items. They get them easily and ship reasonably quickly (within a week usually).

2. In print and commonly available imports, particularly U.K and even Japanese, are usually easily obtainable within a week or so. If they can't get it, it may very well have gone OOP recently - which is typical of Japan.

3. If it's a rare OOP import, particularly Japanese, there's a good chance they will not be able to get it. a few easy steps to take here:

- send them an email and ASK first!! If you don't get a reply - don't order.

- if you simply are so hot to order, if it still hasn't been sent after a week or 10 days, cancel it.

It should be noted that Caiman provide a very good online tracker that tells you if it has shipped. So there's no magic or science here - you can easily check. Second, Caiman will automatically refund cancelled orders through Amazon or Paypal if the item hasn't shipped.

As noted earlier, nothing "sinister" here, and I'm far from a Caiman apologist - I've cancelled my fair share of orders because they had no stock, and I've received tons more at great prices. If the buyer exercises a minor degree of common sense and caution many successful transactions can be had, and although it's disappointing to not receive a CD, plenty of people need to adjust their perspective - it's a CD, for god's sake, not the end of the bloody world. Life WILL go on.

Edited February 11, 2007 by robert h.

[jeffsjazz]

I took me many emails (and a threat to formally complain to Amazon) to get refunded for 4 cds that went awol.Buyer beware.

[JSngry]

Tejas: do you maybe mean A1Books or ??? Abebooks.com is a "market" or whatever of used booksellers...

I was referring to Abebooks, as referenced in the linked thread.

[Dave Garrett]

Tejas: do you maybe mean A1Books or ??? Abebooks.com is a "market" or whatever of used booksellers-- there's at least a cpl of 'em-- Alibris is another (like GEMM for records, which came after & is useful but a little shadier than the bookdealers)... i've not had $$$ to do bilbliophila for a while but most used stores that get any level of collectibles are part of or the other... which is good & bad, as anyone w/ interests in ANY vintage type stuff (records, musical instruments, clothes, sex toys) can tell you.

Abebooks.com (formerly the Advanced Book Exchange, hence the acronym) is based in Canada. From the linked thread, it sounds like this may have been a new-book purchase, and Caiman is one of the members of their supply network for new books. I have no experience with that end of their business, but they've been my preferred tool for locating used/rare books for years, and I've bought hundreds of books through their site with very few problems. Book dealers pay a fee to list their stock on Abebooks, who then serve as a middleman for payment processing when a customer places an order through the Abebooks site.

Alibris, unlike abebooks, collects a large markup from buyers, and if I'm not mistaken, make it difficult if not impossible to directly contact the seller, at least prior to a sale occurring. It's a revealing exercise to use one of the book meta-search engines like Bookfinder.com to run a search for a particular book; it's frequently easy enough to identify the same book from the same dealer listed on multiple services (usually the description is identical), and quite eye-opening to see the price differential between the listing on abebooks and the one on Alibris. I don't believe Alibris used to gouge buyers like this in the early days of online rare book services (back when Interloc was just starting to establish a web presence for itself), but it's been so long since I've purchased a book using Alibris that I can't recall with certainty.

[Head Man]

I have to admit, I find the responses on the link provided to be pretty laughable, and typical of the internet.

Here's a few winners:

"I am at a loss as to how to even contact them"

You have to try email or telephone, both easily found. Telepathy and wishful thoughts will not work.

"I th,ink they have their people put false positive feedback on amazon.com"

That would be pretty expensive as you have to order something to do that - for which Caiman get charged by Amazon. Besides, if they are doing that, they could obviously do it much better.

"once they have "shipped" they can/will no longer cancel an order."

Wow. That person's has a firm grasp on the obvious.

"I have never felt so completely raped in a transaction."

Lynda, it's a CD girl! Get a life!!

For the record, Caiman - like dozens of other sellers on Amazon and Ebay - is a virtual store, it has zero stock. That really means absolutely nothing, it's very common today. What they DO have is a fairly efficient network of suppliers whose inventory is linked together and it is that inventory that is shown online. If the supplier's inventory isn't up to date - Caiman is not either.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that if there is a virtual seller with thousands of titles there is no physical location. There's nothing wrong with dropshipping. There's nothing wrong with not keeping stock yourself.

What there is often an issue with is the accuracy of the stock listing and the occasions where stock is listed without ANY supplier showing stock - and also, if the item is rare or OOP and a supplier's stock shows 1 copy, it is likely that is an error.

Sure, Caiman could be a hell of a lot better and should be. But it shouldn't be too hard reading through the feedback to figure out how Caiman operates and how to use it, everything one needs to know plainly stated.

1. Caiman is outstanding and dirt cheap for commonly available, in print items. They get them easily and ship reasonably quickly (within a week usually).

2. In print and commonly available imports, particularly U.K and even Japanese, are usually easily obtainable within a week or so. If they can't get it, it may very well have gone OOP recently - which is typical of Japan.

3. If it's a rare OOP import, particularly Japanese, there's a good chance they will not be able to get it. a few easy steps to take here:

- send them an email and ASK first!! If you don't get a reply - don't order.

- if you simply are so hot to order, if it still hasn't been sent after a week or 10 days, cancel it.

It should be noted that Caiman provide a very good online tracker that tells you if it has shipped. So there's no magic or science here - you can easily check. Second, Caiman will automatically refund cancelled orders through Amazon or Paypal if the item hasn't shipped.

As noted earlier, nothing "sinister" here, and I'm far from a Caiman apologist - I've cancelled my fair share of orders because they had no stock, and I've received tons more at great prices. If the buyer exercises a minor degree of common sense and caution many successful transactions can be had, and although it's disappointing to not receive a CD, plenty of people need to adjust their perspective - it's a CD, for god's sake, not the end of the bloody world. Life WILL go on.

Well said! My thoughts exactly!

[shaft]

Hi,

I strongly second the statements that Caiman should not be used when you want to order out of print albums! I have gone that route several times and I'm fed up with waiting and did also have great great problems getting a refund for my items.

caiman is OK if it's a new item that is in stock - that's it.

/Shaft

[David Ayers]

I agree with other folks in giving caiman a qualified thumbs up. If you order things that you know to be in print and with good distribution, and you are prepared to maybe wait a little longer, then caiman are fine. I've dealt with customer service only once and they were genuinely helpful. Stuff that you know is hard to track down - well, caiman's distributors probably won't have it and won't be able to get it.

[robviti]

again, i draw people's attention to amazon's policy, to which they apparently turn a blind eye, to their discredit:

from amazon marketplace:

Sellers at Amazon Marketplace are expected to abide by the following Community Rules:

Delayed shipments or pre-sells are prohibited. Items offered through Amazon Marketplace must be shipped within two business days of the close of a sale. In the event that an item you are offering will not be available for immediate delivery, alert your transaction partner and initiate any necessary refunds. It is important to maintain accurate inventory records, as instances of "stock-outs" could be reflected in your seller feedback rating.

[mikelz777]

again, i draw people's attention to amazon's policy, to which they apparently turn a blind eye, to their discredit:

from amazon marketplace:

Sellers at Amazon Marketplace are expected to abide by the following Community Rules:

Delayed shipments or pre-sells are prohibited. Items offered through Amazon Marketplace must be shipped within two business days of the close of a sale. In the event that an item you are offering will not be available for immediate delivery, alert your transaction partner and initiate any necessary refunds. It is important to maintain accurate inventory records, as instances of "stock-outs" could be reflected in your seller feedback rating.

They don't care either. Just follow the money. I'm sure Caiman generates a lot of fee income for Amazon. Amazon isn't going to do anything about it.