Most Overrated 50's-60's Blue Notes

[ep1str0phy]

As both a Cecil fan and a musician, I can testify to the fact that "Ceora" has a bitch of a theme.

On the reading thing--I remember a review of Cecil's set at the Thurston Moore's regular "All Tomorrow's Parties" musical get together that said that it takes an "astrophysicist" (or someone to that effect) to understand CT's whole bag... the literature can be helpful (and, though I have some problems with Jost's book--especially his Ayler chapter--I think it's as fine a readily available theoretical document as we have on that period of evolution), but if you can't get down with it on a basic level, there's something up. Cecil was a dance guy, after all, and Unit Structures (in its own way) "leaps" and "lopes" as hard as and hard bop.

[JSngry]

Well yeah, that's the way I feel. First it hits you, and then you make the effort to figure out what's going on. I'm not prone to expending effort figuring out something that I don't want to hear over and over again...

I've at times been credited with being "eloquent" or some shit. No such thing. It's just that if something really gets to me, once I get over the intial buzz/repulsion/ehatever, I go about trying to figure out why I've had that reaction, and what specifically it is in the music that has produced that reaction. Now, yeah, I'm a musician, so I can go more "technically" into it than a lay listener (and that takes care of the "how), but still, I'd think that anybody could ask themselves "Why?" one way or the other, and come up with an answer, unless you just want to function entirely on gut reaction and keep moving on (which is certainly a lifestyle with immense appeal, but also one which I personally have found myself unable to sustain for any meaningful duration after numerous attemps. Personal wiring and such, I suppose...)

For me and Unit Structures the why was really pretty simple, and contained in the album's title - the structure. I was shaken (and stirred!) by all this intellegent energy feeling like it had an overriding structure (a structure which became apparent over time, as I pursued the "how"). The notion that "structure" and "freedom" could exist on such equally large a scale had a very powerful primal impact & appeal to me, then and now.

And besides, "Enter Evening" is just flat out beautiful, at least to me.

[ep1str0phy]

Yeah, that's my favorite segment of the album. Even if the structure is a little oblique, there's an intense emotional directness to it--something I've always loved about Cecil.

[JSngry]

Even if the structure is a little oblique...

Well, there again, it's all in the title - Unit Structures. The whole thing (as is much of Cecil's music to this day) is really a long-form composition made of up "little" cells/units that are developed through improvisation before the next one comes along (the improvisations of late Trane go much the same route, actually). Once you glom that, I'll not say that it necessarily gets "easier", but it does at least start to fall into place.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Albert Ammons and Meade Lux - The First Day

Monk - Genius vol.1

Bud - Time Waits

Nichols - Trio

Cecil - Conquistador

Dolphy - Out to Lunch

Hill - Point of Departure

Rollins - Night at the VV

Rollins - Newk's Time

Dorham - Bohemia v.1

In other words, jazz is overrated?

definitely, didn't you know? it's not even good entertainment!

Oops...

I don't think it'd be possible to overrate that lot.

[Jim R]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys. I didn't really intend to knock it (haven't heard it in years, and don't pretend to "know" it), btw... just a bit put off by Ubu's way of putting things I guess (and the general Mogie bashing, which I couldn't resist reacting against).

I suppose it's the difference between understanding a piece of music and enjoying it naturally... although I will admit that understanding can lead to better enjoyment. But in this case, probably not for me. But that's life, and of course I realize I'm the poorer (would never argue otherwise, and hopefully you'll never see me bashing CT or anyone else).

Btw, Jim, your eloquence is real, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with your knowledge of music or musical subjects. You gots a real good way with words. Period. Anybody who doesn't recognize that needs to sit down and study.

[king ubu]

Give me a break... I didn't read anything up in order to be struck by Cecil's music - I've been a fan for a few years (yeah, about two thirds of the few years I've been listening to jazz), and I *occasionally* read something about the music. Just so happens Jost's book is a very good one and I happened to find a copy of it...

[king ubu]

And I apologize for peeing on your BN fetish party... I just felt like doing it, since we been there done that a dozen times and it doesn't go elsewhere just because we're doing it again.

My point is not to bash Lee Morgan, I've got almost all of his BNs (where's that reissue of Delightfulee, please? That one I still miss), both the Mosaics, too... it's just that a lot of this hardbop stuff is formulaic in execution, no matter if the tunes are a bitch or the solos are da shit. There are days when I sort of get bored so much by the formulaic character of some of my favourite BNs that I just have to play something else... same happens to me with free improv - sometimes I realize 10 minutes into a CD that what I want is some Jelly Roll or Booby or Booger or whatever, not that freakin' free shit.

And one last remark about hardbop: Savoy! It might not be as bluesy and all, but they did a whole lot of great albums that are rather rarely discussed here, and that offer some kind of difference if the hard-hitting BN approach gets tiring... maybe it's just me, but Introducing Lee Morgan or Jazz Message of Hank Mobley struck me as two of the finest efforts of both men from that period.

[John L]

I've at times been credited with being "eloquent" or some shit. No such thing. It's just that if something really gets to me, once I get over the intial buzz/repulsion/ehatever, I go about trying to figure out why I've had that reaction, and what specifically it is in the music that has produced that reaction. Now, yeah, I'm a musician, so I can go more "technically" into it than a lay listener (and that takes care of the "how), but still, I'd think that anybody could ask themselves "Why?" one way or the other, and come up with an answer, unless you just want to function entirely on gut reaction and keep moving on (which is certainly a lifestyle with immense appeal, but also one which I personally have found myself unable to sustain for any meaningful duration after numerous attemps. Personal wiring and such, I suppose...)

In addition to being a musician, you are also a deep thinker, possess a profound understanding of jazz history, and write in an extremely articulate manner. In other words, you ARE ELOQUENT, motherfucker. Get over it.

[JSngry]

Thanks, but.... shut the fuck up.

Seriously, all I'm saying is that all that anybody has to do is to feel first, then think/ask, and keep on doing that cycle. That's it. Damn near anybody can do it. That it seems that more people don't should not be taken to mean that they can't.

We've all been indoctrinated, trained, and crustified by all sorts of forces, some intentional, some not, some benevolent in intent, some not. Comes a time to just let all that shit go and find out who we really are, who we would/could be if we didn't know who we thought we were supposed to be. Now, maybe not everybody can confront that notion comfortably (or even uncomfortably), but anybody can get on that road once they do.

I'm not "eloquent", I just don't stop asking questions of myself, don't take the first easy answer that pops up and close the book on it. That's all. Again, anybody can do it.

I've been told that curiosity is not an intrinsic human trait. I don't believe it. What's not an intrinsic human trait is setting self-imposed limits on how curious you're going to be. That's a learned behavior, and what is learned can most likely be unlearned, no?

[Dan Gould]

Thanks, but.... shut the fuck up.

Seriously, all I'm saying is that all that anybody has to do is to feel first, then think/ask, and keep on doing that cycle. That's it. Damn near anybody can do it. That it seems that more people don't should not be taken to mean that they can't.

We've all been indoctrinated, trained, and crustified by all sorts of forces, some intentional, some not, some benevolent in intent, some not. Comes a time to just let all that shit go and find out who we really are, who we would/could be if we didn't know who we thought we were supposed to be. Now, maybe not everybody can confront that notion comfortably (or even uncomfortably), but anybody can get on that road once they do.

I'm not "eloquent", I just don't stop asking questions of myself, don't take the first easy answer that pops up and close the book on it. That's all. Again, anybody can do it.

I've been told that curiosity is not an intrinsic human trait. I don't believe it. What's not an intrinsic human trait is setting self-imposed limits on how curious you're going to be. That's a learned behavior, and what is learned can most likely be unlearned, no?

But don't you think, Jim, that "I just don't stop asking questions of myself" is a separate issue from "eloquence"? Its one thing to feel, and then to venture deeper into something. But the ability to communicate what you find to others is a whole 'nother thing, and you have that in spades.

[JSngry]

I thank you, but this is soon going to become a "Most Overrated Organissmo Poster" thread...

I guess in my mind, "eloquence" is a function of focus, and I'm in no way willing to claim that whatever focus I have is something that is something that not most everybody is capable of, if they had the time and energy to devote to it. I mean, I've onlyu had a full-time "straight job" for about three years now, and I'll soon be 51. So I've had a lot of time to think. That's a luxury most people don't have (and I can tell you that it's a luxury that not as many musicians take advantage of as probably should). So, as much as I sincerely appreciate all the kind words, really, I also feel that I've been a beneficiary of circumstances more than of any "gift" or "talent".

There's a helluva lot of similar eloquence lurking in a lot of the people who post here. I mean that. It's just a matte of finding it inside, and that takes time (lots) and encouragement. I can't help anybody with time, but if it's encouragement anybody wants, here it is!

[DukeCity]

I'm not "eloquent", I just don't stop asking questions of myself, don't take the first easy answer that pops up and close the book on it. That's all. Again, anybody can do it.

I've been told that curiosity is not an intrinsic human trait. I don't believe it. What's not an intrinsic human trait is setting self-imposed limits on how curious you're going to be. That's a learned behavior, and what is learned can most likely be unlearned, no?

But don't you think, Jim, that "I just don't stop asking questions of myself" is a separate issue from "eloquence"? Its one thing to feel, and then to venture deeper into something. But the ability to communicate what you find to others is a whole 'nother thing, and you have that in spades.

Good point, Dan, but I think they may be separate but related issues. The "don't stop asking questions" thing means that, in addition to learning stuff, you get that stuff sorted out enough to be able to make connections, comparisons, allusions, etc. to other stuff that you've also sorted out. And all of that facilitates the communication part.

[Jim R]

I apologize for peeing on your BN fetish party

WTF? Give me a break, man. In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is just the opposite. All I did was react to a seemingly harsh generalization.

My point is not to bash Lee Morgan, I've got almost all of his BNs (where's that reissue of Delightfulee, please? That one I still miss), both the Mosaics, too... it's just that a lot of this hardbop stuff is formulaic in execution, no matter if the tunes are a bitch or the solos are da shit.

In other words, your moods change... like ALL of us!

[John L]

I apologize for peeing on your BN fetish party

WTF? Give me a break, man. In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is just the opposite. All I did was react to a seemingly harsh generalization.

My point is not to bash Lee Morgan, I've got almost all of his BNs (where's that reissue of Delightfulee, please? That one I still miss), both the Mosaics, too... it's just that a lot of this hardbop stuff is formulaic in execution, no matter if the tunes are a bitch or the solos are da shit.

In other words, your moods change... like ALL of us!

The tunes are a bitch and the solos are da shit? That sounds like my kind of formula.

[sheldonm]

I apologize for peeing on your BN fetish party

WTF? Give me a break, man. In case you hadn't noticed, this thread is just the opposite. All I did was react to a seemingly harsh generalization.

My point is not to bash Lee Morgan, I've got almost all of his BNs (where's that reissue of Delightfulee, please? That one I still miss), both the Mosaics, too... it's just that a lot of this hardbop stuff is formulaic in execution, no matter if the tunes are a bitch or the solos are da shit.

In other words, your moods change... like ALL of us!

The tunes are a bitch and the solos are da shit? That sounds like my kind of formula.

...sounds like a review I would write!

m~

[ep1str0phy]

I thank you, but this is soon going to become a "Most Overrated Organissmo Poster" thread...

I guess in my mind, "eloquence" is a function of focus, and I'm in no way willing to claim that whatever focus I have is something that is something that not most everybody is capable of, if they had the time and energy to devote to it. I mean, I've onlyu had a full-time "straight job" for about three years now, and I'll soon be 51. So I've had a lot of time to think. That's a luxury most people don't have (and I can tell you that it's a luxury that not as many musicians take advantage of as probably should). So, as much as I sincerely appreciate all the kind words, really, I also feel that I've been a beneficiary of circumstances more than of any "gift" or "talent".

There's a helluva lot of similar eloquence lurking in a lot of the people who post here. I mean that. It's just a matte of finding it inside, and that takes time (lots) and encouragement. I can't help anybody with time, but if it's encouragement anybody wants, here it is!

If it isn't evident yet, not only are you eloquent, but you're also a quasi-saint.

[king ubu]

Apologies, everyone. I quietly walk out the back door now...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm not "eloquent", I just don't stop asking questions of myself, don't take the first easy answer that pops up and close the book on it. That's all. Again, anybody can do it.

I've been told that curiosity is not an intrinsic human trait. I don't believe it. What's not an intrinsic human trait is setting self-imposed limits on how curious you're going to be. That's a learned behavior, and what is learned can most likely be unlearned, no?

But don't you think, Jim, that "I just don't stop asking questions of myself" is a separate issue from "eloquence"? Its one thing to feel, and then to venture deeper into something. But the ability to communicate what you find to others is a whole 'nother thing, and you have that in spades.

Good point, Dan, but I think they may be separate but related issues. The "don't stop asking questions" thing means that, in addition to learning stuff, you get that stuff sorted out enough to be able to make connections, comparisons, allusions, etc. to other stuff that you've also sorted out. And all of that facilitates the communication part.

That's right. What we actually mean nowadays by eloquence is persuasiveness, not, or not necessarily, beautiful use of language. And persuasiveness is almost a direct function of knowing what you're talking about.

MG

[John L]

. And persuasiveness is almost a direct function of knowing what you're talking about.

If only that was always true! Unfortunately, there are many people in the world who make use of their talents of persuasiveness even though they don't know what they are talking about.

[clifford_thornton]

[ep1str0phy]

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

. And persuasiveness is almost a direct function of knowing what you're talking about.

If only that was always true! Unfortunately, there are many people in the world who make use of their talents of persuasiveness even though they don't know what they are talking about.

Well, yes, but they do have a full command of their materials (ie the probably incorrect assumptions that underlie their persuasive messages). I think that's more what I meant. If you can build a world view from your incorrect assumptions, or even lies, then you're able to use it to persuade. This is essentially the same as an actor playing a part so convincingly that they can improvise and remain in character.

MG