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Political forums on the Organissimo board


Rooster_Ties

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Go read this thread: (seriously)

Suicide Bomber Kills 20 on Israeli Bus, Let's blame Bush here as well!

And then let's discuss what having Political threads here does to the character of the board.

I'm NOT suggesting a ban on the discussion of politics. But I do think we need to discuss this.

Personally, I love to be able to have a place for some reasonable discussion of world issues, but lots of times a number of the Political threads spin out of control, and it makes it impossible for any of us "middle-of-the-roaders" to participate in any kind of meaningful way. And usually this is the result of just a few posters, perhaps as few as 2 or 3 or 4.

And also, I really do think this has some kind of impact on the board, not all of which is positive.

Again, I'm not suggesting we suddenly axe the Politics thread, but I do wonder how many good jazz-interested folk have come here on a day when the political rhetoric is high, and said "fuck that", and then they never come back. Or people that have joined, participated at a moderate level, and then just got tired of all the bullshit. Or lurkers who just drift away and never join.

Some days are worse than others (we all know that), so I'm not suggesting this problem is always something that's critical. But sometimes it is pretty bad (and in more than just a couple threads), and I think it does have a cumulative effect on the nature of the board, over time.

I don't have a solution, but it deserves to be talked about.

Discuss... :mellow:

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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Well, here is how another board i've been to handles it:

We require a special registration to post in the Heated Debates forum (political/religious topics). Due to the nature and content of these types of discussions, you must understand that access to this forum is a privilege, and not a right, and you must agree to the following rules. 


The administrators and moderators of this forum will not be filtering the restricted forum for content, except for cases that violate any of the rules listed below. Opinions of all types are acceptable, except as listed below. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of this forum or Jelsoft Enterprises Limited (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.


The owners of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason. 


The following are rules that are specifically for the restricted forum. Note that these rules do not replace the general forum rules, but rather, they are in addition to those rules.





No obscene behavior, flaming, insulting another. If you have a problem with another member, deal with it privately. 


No curse words, vulgar slang, etc. We want this forum to be for users of all ages. 


No endorsing acts of violence or terrorism against any party. 


No blanket statements about any particular group of people ('All members of this religion are idiots'). 


All threads regarding politics or religion must be posted in the restricted forum. 


All opinions and views regarding political/religious topics must be kept in the restricted forum. Differences of opinion must not carry over into the other forums. 




Again, you must understand that people around the world participate in this forum, and that their views and opinions may be different from yours; in some cases, totally opposite. Everyone has the right to their opinions, and just because you totally disagree with another user, you do NOT have the right to flame them. Any forum with political/religious topics is, by nature, going to have heated discussions. Heated discussions are fine, as long as they do not cross the line into personal insults or breaking any of the rules mentioned above.


Any posts that do not meet these criteria may be arbitrarily deleted or moved by the web site team, and the user will be banned from the restrictd forum.


THERE ARE NO WARNINGS AND NO SECOND CHANCES ON THIS FORUM. YOU BREAK A RULE ONCE, YOU WILL BE BANNED FROM THE RESTRICTED FORUM.

That's a little extreme IMHO, but then again, maybe we could use a little heavy handedness if it makes this board a more pleasant place.

Once again, I'm reminded of my favorite quote from "A Fish Called Wanda"

Cleese: "How Interesting! You're quite the vulgarian, aren't you?"

Kline: "You're the vulgarian, you fuck!" ;)

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I wish there were some way to ban specific people from specific forums.

I don't mean to want to exclude people in general, because I do think they're solid contributors elsewhere.  But I get so fucking tired of having to practically ignore entire parts of this board, because of the arguments of just a few people here.

You guys might want to think about that before your next spat.

Turns off good jazz people too, and if people haven't been members of this board for long, and especially if they weren't a part of the old BNBB - I fear we turn off lots of good people who join this board, only to discover the signal-to-noise ratio isn't to their liking.

Pisses me off too, if you haven't guessed.  :angry:

and then...

What Rooster said.

ENOUGH.

No, not enough. There cannot be enough condemnation when a bus full of children is specifically targeted to be blown up. Comprende?

And rooster, can you be any more petty. You're pissed off because of your idiotic theory that we lose some "good jazz people" because of these posts when innocent people are missing their limbs? How fucked up is that?

Greg. I don't really know how to respond to this yet. Other than to say that a very small number of people (from both ideological sides of the fence - yourself included) are sometimes making it all but impossible for the rest of us to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion of some kinds of topics. While it isn't every single political thread, this also isn't just an occasional thing either.

I'm NOT suggesting anyone be banned from the board. But I would ask that everyone consider what kind of climate this kind of political banter (if that's what you call it), creates for the rest of us on the board. And also to consider what good it can create where just two or three or four people are engaged in what amounts to just a huge pissing contest.

That's all I'm gonna say for the moment. Again, I'm not suggesting anyone be banned from the board. I'm asking for some calm, level-headed introspection from the people who I think know who I'm talking about. It's not just a few on the Right - it's a few on the Left too.

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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I do wonder how many good jazz-interested folk have come here on a day when the political rhetoric is high, and said "fuck that", and then they never come back. Or people that have joined, participated at a moderate level, and then just got tired of all the bullshit. Or lurkers who just drift away and never join.

RT,

With all due respect, I think you're forgetting about the majority of posters who see political rhetoric, simply ignore it and move on. Clearly the majority do that. Don't you think? Most people don't get caught up in it. They could give a shit.

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RT,

With all due respect, I think you're forgetting about the majority of posters who see political rhetoric, simply ignore it and move on. Clearly the majority do that. Don't you think? Most people don't get caught up in it. They could give a shit.

Most of the time that's me too, though I would like to participate in the politics forum more than I do.

BUT, I do happen to know of a number of people who make AAJ their home specifically because of volume of political discussion here. (One is a guy I know personally from the Kansas City area, and he flat-out ignores our board because of it.) Some days it's nearly half of all the active posts on our board, and it's mostly just a very small handful of people who are driving it.

Again, I'm not suggesting we nuke the politics forum, or ban anybody.

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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Jazz, as Whitney Balliet said, is "the sound of surprise".

The political threads are usually anything but.

I look in to them only occasionally, and post in them even less.

This is a jazz (and goof) board for me, first and foremost. What does not engage me, I ignore. It's not hard to do.

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The fact is that 99.99% of the time, the political threads are worthless. Opponents yelling at each other, insulting each other, goading each other ... and for what? For what?

And with Greg's appearance and Johnny's return, its only going to get worse.

Jim Dye's example of an alternative forum will never fly-half the shit the left spews (hell, Clem and Johnny alone) won't get past the

No blanket statements about any particular group of people ('All members of this religion are idiots')

rule.

Given the fact that essentially no serious exchange of ideas or beliefs has ever occured in the political threads, I wouldn't miss them a bit.

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As I said in the thread you're linking, Rooster, what happened Tues night in Jerusalem puts in perspective our petty squabbles here in cyberspace. I just don't place much importance on those squabbles, and haven't for a long time.

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I agree Jim, it's not too hard to avoid Politics completely around here. I do often do that.

But as someone who'd like to engage in some of that discussion (in some kind of meaningful way), it's kinda difficult when the inmates are controlling the insane asylum. (Then again, that describes most of this board, so why should Politics be any different. :rolleyes: )

'Cept some of the inmates in Politics are different, and don't seem to be nearly as good natured as the rest of us folk. We've got guys here who 80% and 90% of their posts are in Politics, and in some cases - well over half of that is reposting article after article from other sources, with no additional commentary of their own.

Strange place this is. :wacko::wacko::wacko:

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As I said in the thread you're linking, Rooster, what happened Tues night in Jerusalem puts in perspective our petty squabbles here in cyberspace. I just don't place much importance on those squabbles, and haven't for a long time.

I beg to differ. You must place quite a bit of importance on them, because you (and others) devote so much energy towards creating those very same squabbles (in great numbers, I might add).

After all, it's not like all this Political talk (from any of us) really does any good in the world, in terms of really changing anything. And certainly not the extreme arguments we see around here frequently.

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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I like an active board.

At times that means the majority of discussion may be on other topics aside from jazz, and that may include politics.

This is true with other jazz boards also.

I for one do not lose any sleep over political disagreements I may have with any members here, and have no personal problems with any that I know of.

I do see exchanges that I think may be unnecessary, and in some cases stupid, but what are you gonna' do?

Some of it is way overboard I agree, but I don't know what is reasonable, except ignoring it.

If a person comes here for purely jazz discussion, I assume they would have the common sense to avoid politics. If they were turned off by what goes on in that forum, rather than leave, I would again think they would just learn to ignore it.

I think it makes for a more complete board, and enjoy having the option to post in that forum when I feel a topic is of interest to me. I don't mind breaking balls from time to time either. ;)

I have developed, what I believe to be friendly relationshps with some of my political opposites, (you know who you are :P ) and therefore don't normally fly off the handle with name calling and the rest of the BS.

That is not to say it wouldn't or couldn't happen.

Emotions can get the best of us, but in the end it all seems to work out.

Sometimes posting the ole' :rolleyes:, is the best ticket. ;)

Edited by catesta
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After all, it's not like all this Political talk (from any of us) really does any good in the world, in terms of really changing anything.  And certainly not the extreme arguments we see around here frequently.

This is very true, as is what you say about posting articles.

Some see that, and others think they are on a mission of change and truth.

At times though, posting of an article with no commentary may be a good way to start off a discussion.

The key is keeping it all in perspective.

Hell, I don't know.

I'm really just hear for the music, babes, beer, cheap jokes, and only the occasional political rant.. :g

Edited by catesta
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Jazz, as Whitney Balliet said, is "the sound of surprise".

The political threads are usually anything but.

I look in to them only occasionally, and post in them even less.

This is a jazz (and goof) board for me, first and foremost. What does not engage me, I ignore. It's not hard to do.

I think Jim's thoughts sum up my attitude pretty well. I love this board and enjoy all the great people on it. I'm glad it's an open forum where people can discuss anything they chose. However, I get enough politics and religion on the nightly news. I like to think about jazz. :)

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I honestly don't understand why it's a big deal. If you don't like it, stay away. People that don't come here because of the politics forum are either waaay too thin skinned or have no willpower. Seems rather silly.

Am I worried about losing people because of the politics forum? Not really. I would think people would have enough common sense to stay out of something they find negative in some way.

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I beg to differ. You must place quite a bit of importance on them, because you (and others) devote so much energy towards creating those very same squabbles (in great numbers, I might add).

After all, it's not like all this Political talk (from any of us) really does any good in the world, in terms of really changing anything. And certainly not the extreme arguments we see around here frequently.

Yeah, but that's just because your reference is lovey dovey jazz threads in which we all trip over each other to describe how much we enjoy a certain Herbie Hancock right-hand flourish as he starts his solo on Orbits. We each have our own way of responding to music and to current events--and choosing when to talk about them.

I hasten to add that our incessant discussions about jazz do nothing to change anything and do not contribute any good to the world, so why you are singling out the political discussions for this is beyond me. Any way you slice it we're just a bunch of quirky folks paying homage to a largely dead art form to which most of the world pays no attention. Which is fine, but tough for me to indulge in at times when I feel like talking about something that's effecting lives in the world. For years I posted on BNBB--going back to the old board, before it was upgraded to vBulletin. That was in 1998. That's at least 3 years before 9/11/01 I had been having mostly the same tired jazz discussions about the same albums by the same artists playing the same songs. After 9/11 I simply couldn't do that anymore, at least not with the same passion I had before, when I was so pleased to discover so many in cyberspace shared my love of jazz.

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I honestly don't understand why it's a big deal.  If you don't like it, stay away.  People that don't come here because of the politics forum are either waaay too thin skinned or have no willpower.   Seems rather silly.

Am I worried about losing people because of the politics forum?  Not really.  I would think people would have enough common sense to stay out of something they find negative in some way.

I guess I'm just too thin-skinned. :unsure:

But I will say that sometimes the Political forum reminds me of a big gathering of people, where there are a very small number of people in one corner having a huge shouting match which drowns out anything anyone else has to say if they try to get in on the same discussion topics. And if anyone else starts a similar discussion elsewhere in the room, then loudmouths join in and drown out that discussion too.

Isn't always the case, but it is more frequently than I'd prefer. And "Politics" is the only forum where this is the case.

I probably ought to shut up about this now.

Why hang around here if you're tired of talking about jazz?

I often wonder the same thing. <_<

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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After re-reading the thread, I now understand your point, Rooster. What you're saying is that we could have a healthy, active political forum with actual discussions, debates, etc, but too often it just turns into a shouting match between a handful of loudmouths.

So, I guess the question is this: Should we structure the forum rules to coincide with the etiquette of civil discourse? By which I mean no name-calling, insults, or personal attacks? Those that engage in such things get the boot from that forum? I can set up the Politics Forum to be initially open to everyone, but make it a "special" forum that requires permission to enter. Basically, everyone would have that permission at first, but if you violated the rules a certain number of times your permission would be revoked.

The cool thing about this software update is that it has a warning system built in. Basically only the moderators can see it, but we could use it to keep track of "violations" of policy. Enough violations and the member is no longer allowed to post in the forum.

So what should the rules be?

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After re-reading the thread, I now understand your point, Rooster.  What you're saying is that we could have a healthy, active political forum with actual discussions, debates, etc, but too often it just turns into a shouting match between a handful of loudmouths.

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. TOTALLY!! Thanks for hearing me out. I really appreciate it!! :)

As far as the rest of your suggestion goes, I would have to think about it some more, especially about the details. But even without having given it too much thought, I do find the idea intriguing.

The trick would be to set up the rules to be loose enough so as not to unduly stifle free speech (which, believe it or not, I believe in very strongly). Tricky thing to do, but perhaps it could be done.

Let me think about this some more and get back to you, via this thread.

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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Agree. PLEASE keep it as is. The early vestiges of censorship, posting rules, word choice and other onerous restrictions are precisely what killed the other board from a time long ago and a galaxy far away.

This board is the **** as is--if it ain't broke, don't ******* fix it!

(see how much that totally ******* *****?)

Peter

P.S. Yes, I added the asterisks!!!

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RT, I know where you're coming from. I had a dream when this board started of a political forum where serious discussion was the norm rather than personal insults, kneejerk left/right screeds and (now that my favorite internet pal in the whole world is here) "Israel is perfect and everyone else is an antisemite" vs. everyone else threads. But you know what? It ain't gonna happen.

The only way you could make the political forum you want is to ban Greg, Dan, Berigan, Catesta, Johnny, Alexander, Jazzmoose (thought I'd forget that one, eh?) and a few others. You could do that, but who's going to post there then? You'd be talking to yourself...

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