Pablo Records

[felser]

I have a grab bag of feelings about the label.  I actually liked the artwork quite a bit with the exception of the hideous red/white/blue Montreux '77 covers.  Musically, many of the artists are not really my bag, but enjoyable enough.  Many were pretty old by then.  I though the label did wonders for Sarah Vaughan.  I liked their approach with Milt Jackson quite a bit.  I like many of the Oscar Peterson albums on Pablo, but he sure recorded a LOT for them!  I like many of the settings Dizzy recorded in, though I was not a big fan of his playing after the 60's.  They did right by Zoot Sims.  Pass doesn't bother me, though I don't seek him out.  The OP comparison for him is an apt one, though I sort of hit middle ground with both of them, so not at all sure love or hate is necessary.  In many ways, the label just felt like an updated continuation of Verve.  Not sure what more could have been done with people like Roy Eldridge at that point.  They sure didn't know what to do with someone like Freddie Hubbard.  The label was more of a shockwave when it started in the 70's amidst the rhodes and fender bass era than is realized now.  I'm thankful for it on its own terms, much prefer it to Concord, for instance.

[sidewinder]

The context of the time as I remember it was that classic jazz of this type was pretty well dead in terms of LP releases so Pablo was a tonic in terms of what was commercially available. Here in the UK they got good distribution and could be picked up in most high streets in branches of WH Smith as distinct from rare expeditions into obscure London record shops impervious to the jazz non-believers. There were plenty in elder generations who were keen to snap up new Basie, Ella etc.

Edited March 29, 2022 by sidewinder

[JSngry]

I very much like the OG Pablo covers. It's the OJC iterations that bug me.

And don't get me wrong, they did a lot of really good records. But some that were just lackadaisical.

OTOH, the way that Granz knew that since Joe Turner was going to make the same record every time out that he would need to vary the personnel every time out in order to allow for even a chance of surprise was very shrewd. I like every Joe Turner record on Pablo because of that.

[Ken Dryden]

When i interviewed Joe Pass by phone in 1993, he credited Norman Granz with getting him to play solo guitar. I believe he is also responsible for introducing him to Oscar Peterson.

There are some disappointing albums on Pablo, though a few of them happened after Granz sold Pablo to Fantasy. But it is pure joy every time I listen to the Oscar Peterson Jam at Montreux, with Dizzy, Clark Terry and Lockjaw Davis on fire...

 

[John Tapscott]

3 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

In my view, Norman Granz gets a bad rap from those who tell us they could have done a better job in producing jazz recordings. 

Where were they then?

When I look at my very large collection of Clef, Norgran, Verve, and Pablo recordings I see an  extremely large number of outstanding records that I would not want to be without. The fact that Granz offered opportunities for many musicians who were being overlooked in favor of the latest jazz styles is by itself worthy of major credit.

When I consider the lengthy list of wonderful jazz musicians  he recorded,(and the financial benefit that provided for them), it is quite amazing. I won't list the musicians here as it would likely be so long as to become close to a history of jazz.

If I was consider the jazz record producers who have been most important over the past roughly 80 years, Norman Granz would certainly be among the top 3 or 4.

The readily identifiable Pablo album covers are fine with me. Maybe not the most artistic, but easy to pick out in the record bins as a Pablo recording and therefore one I was likely to want to buy.

 

Most of the Pablo albums are range from quite good to excellent, with a few duds thrown in.  Sometimes I find the after music production values sloppy, like they didn't put a whole lot of thought into it or were trying to do it on the cheap.  After Benny Green stopped writing the liner notes for Pablo, the notes (if there were any) were often not very good or very informative.  Sometimes personnel were incorrectly identified or not named at all. The Basie big band albums are a particular pain in this regard, with the soloists or even the small group personnel hardly ever credited

[mjzee]

20 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I am not particularly knowledge about Pablo's artists, certainly not when compared to other board members, but were they generally accomplished composers or songwriters? I always (probably wrongly) had the sense that the musicians who played the sort of swing music that ended up on Pablo tended not to write their own songs, even in an environment that was perhaps more favourable to it.

What I mean is, was Pablo's approach to using overused standards of this sort a reflection of the artists' own standard practice?

Perhaps that's a fair point.  Concord (the original label) seemed to recruit from the same generation of musicians, and many of those albums had Cherokee, When It's Sleepy Time Down South, Take The "A" Train, Undecided, and other warhorses, and had a similar stodgy feel.  But in a way, your comment also proves my point.  Scenario: Granz books a date, these old guys come in, Granz asks them what they want to play, and then records it without comment.  (Just a guess on my part.)  Alfred Lion would have asserted his producer's control, and told these old guys to come back with better material, the same way he stopped the Sonny Stitt & Dexter date for playing the same old stuff.  As Dex remembered it, "Alfred was a wreck.  When Sonny started playing 'Bye Bye Blackbird,' I knew that was it.  Alfred jumped up, yelling 'who needs another version of this?  What is he doing?'  I was laughing too hard to say anything."  

[felser]

But recording without comment is such a forward-thinking, avant-garde approach!

[Ken Dryden]

The strangest choice for a Pablo title track was when Milt Jackson recorded that pos "Feelings." I can't imagine what he heard in the song...

Oscar Peterson recorded several Pablo albums of original music as I recall, though some artists don't think of themselves as composers, unless they improvise a blues.

There are far too many albums of all jazz originals that are pretty forgettable, even if I make it through the first hearing. 

 

[dougcrates]

Mike Longo's Talk With The Spirits is a good record unlike anything else on the label.

[Teasing the Korean]

16 hours ago, sidewinder said:

The context of the time as I remember it was that classic jazz of this type was pretty well dead in terms of LP releases so Pablo was a tonic in terms of what was commercially available. 

That's my recollection also.  It seemed to be the one contemporaneous label that was focused on more or less straight-ahead jazz.  Or at least the one label that was routinely represented in record stores at the time. 

[Rabshakeh]

What about Milestone? Or was that too electric?

[JSngry]

Muse

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yeah - I returned to say that myself, but saw the Gator thread.

Joe Fields was definitely there from about 1971 until he died. He didn't have quite so many old geezers as Norman got working for him, but a sufficient number, I reckon.

Here's a list of all the people who recorded more than one album for him as a leader on Cobblestone or Muse. The old geezers didn't make so many albums as the younger geezers, so you'll find them towards the bottom, but this is a damn good bunch of musicians spanning all aspects of the mainstream of jazz at the time.

Person, Houston	18
Murphy, Mark	16
Jones, Etta	12
Stitt, Sonny	12
Rodney, Red	11
Shaw, Woody	11
Ford, Ricky	10
Jackson, Willis	9
Cole, Richie	9
Earland, Charles	8
King, Morgana	8
Martino, Pat	8
Kloss, Eric	8
Burrell, Kenny	7
Roney, Wallace	7
Davis, Richard	6
Garnett, Carlos	6
Hoggard, Jay	6
Lytle, Johnny	6
Don Patterson	6
Ponder, Jimmy	6
Walton, Cedar	6
Barron, Kenny	5
Brown, Donald	5
Holmes, Groove	5
Jordan, Clifford	5
Vinson, Eddie	5
Bishop, Walter Jr.	4
Blackman, Cindy	4
Carvin, Michael	4
Catalyst	4
Coryell, Larry	4
Forman, Bruce	4
Hill, Buck	4
Jordan, Sheila	4
Pike, Dave	4
Plaxico, Lonnie	4
Schnitter, David	4
Spaulding, James	4
Visitors, The	4
Walrath, Jack	4
Adams, Pepper	3
Alexandria, Lorez	3
Barr, Walt	3
Barron, Bill	3
Bowie, Lester	3
Brooks, Cecil III	3
Cobb, Arnett	3
Cook, Junior	3
Edwards, Teddy	3
Hardman, Bill	3
Hendricks, Michele	3
Humes, Helen	3
Jefferson, Eddie	3
Johnston, Randy	3
Jones, Hank	3
Juris, Vic	3
Sasajima, Akio	3
Staton, Dakota	3
Tate, Buddy	3
Williams, Buster	3
Altschul, Barry	2
Andrews, Ernie	2
Bonner, Joe	2
Bronstein, Stan	2
Byard, Jaki	2
Chamberland, Linc	2
Cohn, Al & Zoot Sims	2
Creative Construction Company	2
Creque, Neal	2
Criss, Sonny	2
DeFrancesco, John	2
Donaldson, Lou	2
Eschete, Ron	2
Farber, Mitch	2
Friesen, David	2
Garland, Red	2
Goldstein, Gil	2
Green, Grant	2
Griffin, Della	2
Hayes, Louis	2
Heath, Jimmy	2
Hodes, Art	2
Jackson, Ron	2
Kenyatta, Robin	2
Lynne, Gloria	2
Matthews, David	2
McDuff, Jack	2
McGhee, Brownie & Sonny Terry	2
Members Only	2
Moody, James	2
Muddy Waters Blues Band	2
Newman, David	2
Ousley, Harold	2
Phillips, Sonny	2
Pierce, Bobby	2
Romao, Dom Um	2
Roney, Antoine	2
Schwartz, Jonathan	2
Scott, Shirley	2
Shaw, Charles "Bobo"	2
Tarrés, Fernando	2
Tucker, Mickey	2
Witherspoon, Jimmy	2
Woods, Phil	2

(Can't say I like all these musicians - and some I've never heard of, though there are many of my heroes here - but as far as I can see, it's mainstream stuff.) 

Joe fields didn't depart from this line of work, with the HighNote and Savant labels until he died, and Barney is carrying on, by the looks of it. It is relevant to note that before he started Cobblestone in partnership with Don Schlitten, Joe worked for Bobby Weinstock at Prestige. Very likely, the sale of Prestige to Fantasy left the two of them (and Bob Porter, who was Westbound) needing gainful employment. But all those labels carried the banner of Prestige.

Joe is another of my heroes.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

I met Joe Fields in 1968 when he was in charge of sales for Prestige. I took him to an Anthony Braxton concert at the University of Chicago. Subsequently, Muse issued recordings of the Creative Construction Company.

[JSngry]

and two marvelous Lester Bowie records.

[Peter Friedman]

I tend to be suspicious of albums of all originals unless the tunes are by someone with a solid track record (pun intended).

As Ken said, many original tunes tend to be forgettable (or boring).

I had a very good friend who passed away a couple of years ago. He was a fine jazz pianist. On more than one occasion he said to me that only a limited number of people have the music writer gene. 

 

[mjzee]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

I tend to be suspicious of albums of all originals unless the tunes are by someone with a solid track record (pun intended).

As Ken said, many original tunes tend to be forgettable (or boring).

I had a very good friend who passed away a couple of years ago. He was a fine jazz pianist. On more than one occasion he said to me that only a limited number of people have the music writer gene. 

 

I totally agree.  I like a nice mix: some standards, some blues, some original compositions, but as Alfred said, "it must schwing!"  But the leader doesn't have to write the originals - he can leave those to people who can write.  Example: just yesterday, I listened for the first time to Louis Hayes's "The Real Thing" (Muse/32 Jazz).  The album has 6 tracks.  Two are written by Tex Allen, who isn't even on the album; one each by Hayes, Ronnie Mathews, and Stafford James; and one by Rene McLean's father.  Nice mix of tunes, good playing, and the perfect length: 37 minutes.

[AllenLowe]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

I tend to be suspicious of albums of all originals unless the tunes are by someone with a solid track record (pun intended).

As Ken said, many original tunes tend to be forgettable (or boring).

I had a very good friend who passed away a couple of years ago. He was a fine jazz pianist. On more than one occasion he said to me that only a limited number of people have the music writer gene. 

 

as someone who has recorded about 20 albums worth of original tunes, with 3-5 more coming in the next year.....

[JSngry]

As Miles said in some form or fashion, don't blame the song/it ain't the song's fault, etc.

Any song/composition has the potential to be boring. And so many players go ahead and make them so!

[HutchFan]

2 hours ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

Yeah - I returned to say that myself, but saw the Gator thread.

Joe Fields was definitely there from about 1971 until he died. He didn't have quite so many old geezers as Norman got working for him, but a sufficient number, I reckon.

Here's a list of all the people who recorded more than one album for him as a leader on Cobblestone or Muse. The old geezers didn't make so many albums as the younger geezers, so you'll find them towards the bottom, but this is a damn good bunch of musicians spanning all aspects of the mainstream of jazz at the time.

Person, Houston	18
Murphy, Mark	16
Jones, Etta	12
Stitt, Sonny	12
Rodney, Red	11
Shaw, Woody	11
Ford, Ricky	10
Jackson, Willis	9
Cole, Richie	9
Earland, Charles	8
King, Morgana	8
Martino, Pat	8
Kloss, Eric	8
Burrell, Kenny	7
Roney, Wallace	7
Davis, Richard	6
Garnett, Carlos	6
Hoggard, Jay	6
Lytle, Johnny	6
Don Patterson	6
Ponder, Jimmy	6
Walton, Cedar	6
Barron, Kenny	5
Brown, Donald	5
Holmes, Groove	5
Jordan, Clifford	5
Vinson, Eddie	5
Bishop, Walter Jr.	4
Blackman, Cindy	4
Carvin, Michael	4
Catalyst	4
Coryell, Larry	4
Forman, Bruce	4
Hill, Buck	4
Jordan, Sheila	4
Pike, Dave	4
Plaxico, Lonnie	4
Schnitter, David	4
Spaulding, James	4
Visitors, The	4
Walrath, Jack	4
Adams, Pepper	3
Alexandria, Lorez	3
Barr, Walt	3
Barron, Bill	3
Bowie, Lester	3
Brooks, Cecil III	3
Cobb, Arnett	3
Cook, Junior	3
Edwards, Teddy	3
Hardman, Bill	3
Hendricks, Michele	3
Humes, Helen	3
Jefferson, Eddie	3
Johnston, Randy	3
Jones, Hank	3
Juris, Vic	3
Sasajima, Akio	3
Staton, Dakota	3
Tate, Buddy	3
Williams, Buster	3
Altschul, Barry	2
Andrews, Ernie	2
Bonner, Joe	2
Bronstein, Stan	2
Byard, Jaki	2
Chamberland, Linc	2
Cohn, Al & Zoot Sims	2
Creative Construction Company	2
Creque, Neal	2
Criss, Sonny	2
DeFrancesco, John	2
Donaldson, Lou	2
Eschete, Ron	2
Farber, Mitch	2
Friesen, David	2
Garland, Red	2
Goldstein, Gil	2
Green, Grant	2
Griffin, Della	2
Hayes, Louis	2
Heath, Jimmy	2
Hodes, Art	2
Jackson, Ron	2
Kenyatta, Robin	2
Lynne, Gloria	2
Matthews, David	2
McDuff, Jack	2
McGhee, Brownie & Sonny Terry	2
Members Only	2
Moody, James	2
Muddy Waters Blues Band	2
Newman, David	2
Ousley, Harold	2
Phillips, Sonny	2
Pierce, Bobby	2
Romao, Dom Um	2
Roney, Antoine	2
Schwartz, Jonathan	2
Scott, Shirley	2
Shaw, Charles "Bobo"	2
Tarrés, Fernando	2
Tucker, Mickey	2
Witherspoon, Jimmy	2
Woods, Phil	2

(Can't say I like all these musicians - and some I've never heard of, though there are many of my heroes here - but as far as I can see, it's mainstream stuff.) 

Joe fields didn't depart from this line of work, with the HighNote and Savant labels until he died, and Barney is carrying on, by the looks of it. It is relevant to note that before he started Cobblestone in partnership with Don Schlitten, Joe worked for Bobby Weinstock at Prestige. Very likely, the sale of Prestige to Fantasy left the two of them (and Bob Porter, who was Westbound) needing gainful employment. But all those labels carried the banner of Prestige.

Joe is another of my heroes.

MG

Very interesting list, MG.

Houston Person at the top doesn't surprise me.  But Mark Murphy coming in "second place" does.  (Not that I dislike Murphy.  On the contrary, I like his music very much.)

I suppose Murphy must've sold consistently for Fields to make that many records with him.

 

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

As Miles said in some form or fashion, don't blame the song/it ain't the song's fault, etc.

Any song/composition has the potential to be boring. And so many players go ahead and make them so!

Yep.  Like Fats Waller said: "T'Ain't What You Do (It's The Way That Cha Do It)."

Lee Konitz could play "Blue Skies" 100 times and each version would be mesmerizing (and different).   

On the other hand, with most musicians, a steady diet of nothing but standards quickly grows wearisome, IMO.

 

[mikeweil]

3 hours ago, The Magnificent Goldberg said:

 

Don Patterson	6

Patterson made only four albums as a leader for Muse, 0plus one as a sideman (John Simon).

[Late]

I'm in agreement with the sentiment that Zoot Sims recorded some of his finest playing—perhaps his most creative improvisations—for Pablo. I think in the Pablo records you're hearing Zoot as he wanted to be heard.

[Ken Dryden]

2 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Very interesting list, MG.

Houston Person at the top doesn't surprise me.  But Mark Murphy coming in "second place" does.  (Not that I dislike Murphy.  On the contrary, I like his music very much.)

I suppose Murphy must've sold consistently for Fields to make that many records with him.

 

Yep.  Like Fats Waller said: "T'Ain't What You Do (It's The Way That Cha Do It)."

Lee Konitz could play "Blue Skies" 100 times and each version would be mesmerizing (and different).   

On the other hand, with most musicians, a steady diet of nothing but standards quickly grows wearisome, IMO.

 

I can share a story about my dealings with Joe Fields. I was assigned to write liner notes for two unissued sessions featuring Jimmy Ponder, who recorded extensively for Fields. When I reached the guitarist, his response was "They recorded that?" Joe Fields did his best to stop the release of the two unauthorized Ponder CDs and gave me the liner notes assignment for a JImmy Ponder (Somebody's Child) that was in the pipeline. 

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

10 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Patterson made only four albums as a leader for Muse, 0plus one as a sideman (John Simon).

Yes of course; one was issued twice. And I always take the Simon album as a joint effort.

MG