monkboughtlunch

Are jazz reissues dead?

76 posts in this topic

Brian I'm not being defensive...

Jimmy, I've heard thin and harsh MP3s and thin and harsh cds. . . neither had to be that way!

Who are Brian and Jimmy?

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Sorry "J". . . I thought that was Jimmy for some reason. . . my brain misfiring.

Brian is not a misfire. Though he'd rather go by Clementine for some reason.

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Legacy dying, if that is so, is sad news. Especially with their hands in the RCA catalog now.

Is Uptown dead? That would be sad news.

Edited by jazzbo

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Sorry "J". . . I thought that was Jimmy for some reason. . . my brain misfiring.

Brian is not a misfire. Though he'd rather go by Clementine for some reason.

No prob - my first name starts with a "J" but sounds like it starts with a "Y".

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Yes, the Verve Vault offers out of print cds, and Impulse and Verve etc. downloads of cds formerly available in Japan. (It's a great deal. . .10 bucks or less for a clone of a cd that was 25 dollars or so when available at US retail stores!)

So all I'm waiting for is for this stuff to be made available over here.

Yes, I download MP3s all the time MG and burn them onto an audio cd. iTunes lets me choose to burn an audio or an MP3 cd. . . .

So, what's the problem, Clem?

frankly, i hereby DO criticizice ALL ya'll who are paying $$$ for mp3 unless yr lobbying for lossless as well. i don't bother at all-- i'd rather NOT have something but than some compressed digital crap. (which i do listen to on an ipod but ** by choice **, & the cd or whatever is at home.)

It's no good you saying "I criticise". What's the problem? (And please remember you're talking to a tech idjit.)

MG

The problem is that the same $10 that used to buy a digitally remastered CD with bonus tracks, historical liner notes and enhanced packaging is now the going rate for a bunch of compressed mp3 files which have to be downloaded and burned onto a greenback CD-R which is more vulnerable to problems than a real CD, and there is no art, bonus cuts, historical essays, etc. I have so far refused to begin paying for downloads, and at $10 a pop, it should be pretty easy to keep my resistance. I will have no sympathy for the majors and will gladly pay for the CD's on Proper, Definitive, Lone Hill, etc. when they become available in Europe due to the different copyright laws.

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So, what's the problem, Clem?

frankly, i hereby DO criticizice ALL ya'll who are paying $$$ for mp3 unless yr lobbying for lossless as well. i don't bother at all-- i'd rather NOT have something but than some compressed digital crap. (which i do listen to on an ipod but ** by choice **, & the cd or whatever is at home.)

It's no good you saying "I criticise". What's the problem? (And please remember you're talking to a tech idjit.)

MG

Most MP3s are sampled at a lower rate than CDs. So even after burning them to a CD they won't regain anything lost in compression. This hardly matters for pop music, which has been overcompressed for radio play, but it generally will make a difference for jazz and classical, though how much it actually matters to you depends on the quality of your sound system and your own ears. It doesn't bother me too much, and I have been a faithful subscriber to emusic for quite a while. I'd rather have mp3s than nothing (and I don't think trying to hold out for better formats is terribly realistic).

But check out this story: Rough trade MP3s Rough trade is trying to take away one of the few advantages of the digital era and create an artificial scarcity. Limited edition download, my ass. I think this activity is shameful and will definitely not support them.

Edited by ejp626

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Yes, the Verve Vault offers out of print cds, and Impulse and Verve etc. downloads of cds formerly available in Japan. (It's a great deal. . .10 bucks or less for a clone of a cd that was 25 dollars or so when available at US retail stores!)

So all I'm waiting for is for this stuff to be made available over here.

Yes, I download MP3s all the time MG and burn them onto an audio cd. iTunes lets me choose to burn an audio or an MP3 cd. . . .

So, what's the problem, Clem?

frankly, i hereby DO criticizice ALL ya'll who are paying $$$ for mp3 unless yr lobbying for lossless as well. i don't bother at all-- i'd rather NOT have something but than some compressed digital crap. (which i do listen to on an ipod but ** by choice **, & the cd or whatever is at home.)

It's no good you saying "I criticise". What's the problem? (And please remember you're talking to a tech idjit.)

MG

The problem is that the same $10 that used to buy a digitally remastered CD with bonus tracks, historical liner notes and enhanced packaging is now the going rate for a bunch of compressed mp3 files which have to be downloaded and burned onto a greenback CD-R which is more vulnerable to problems than a real CD, and there is no art, bonus cuts, historical essays, etc. I have so far refused to begin paying for downloads, and at $10 a pop, it should be pretty easy to keep my resistance. I will have no sympathy for the majors and will gladly pay for the CD's on Proper, Definitive, Lone Hill, etc. when they become available in Europe due to the different copyright laws.

Now THAT I can understand. And agree with. Thanks Felser.

MG

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Well, new ten dollar cds with bonus tracks and historical liner notes (especially the latter, of any value) are getting harder to find, they're not putting them out with frequency. At least ones I'm interested in.

And I do get cover images with most of the MP3s I buy, and can have a little fun designing covers, back covers etc. I DO find that fun. It's part of the appeal.

And I tell you. . . I find very few liner notes "compelling reading" any longer. I used to pore over liners. Now I skim. Sometimes ignore completely! So. . . .

The 10 dollar downloads I've bought sound good enough that I don't think about "compressed files." I just enjoy the music. I fought the idea a long while, but . . . this is going to be a part of what's ahead of us. . . I bought in.

Edited by jazzbo

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Yes, the Verve Vault offers out of print cds, and Impulse and Verve etc. downloads of cds formerly available in Japan. (It's a great deal. . .10 bucks or less for a clone of a cd that was 25 dollars or so when available at US retail stores!)

So all I'm waiting for is for this stuff to be made available over here.

Yes, I download MP3s all the time MG and burn them onto an audio cd. iTunes lets me choose to burn an audio or an MP3 cd. . . .

So, what's the problem, Clem?

frankly, i hereby DO criticizice ALL ya'll who are paying $$$ for mp3 unless yr lobbying for lossless as well. i don't bother at all-- i'd rather NOT have something but than some compressed digital crap. (which i do listen to on an ipod but ** by choice **, & the cd or whatever is at home.)

It's no good you saying "I criticise". What's the problem? (And please remember you're talking to a tech idjit.)

MG

The problem is that the same $10 that used to buy a digitally remastered CD with bonus tracks, historical liner notes and enhanced packaging is now the going rate for a bunch of compressed mp3 files which have to be downloaded and burned onto a greenback CD-R which is more vulnerable to problems than a real CD, and there is no art, bonus cuts, historical essays, etc. I have so far refused to begin paying for downloads, and at $10 a pop, it should be pretty easy to keep my resistance. I will have no sympathy for the majors and will gladly pay for the CD's on Proper, Definitive, Lone Hill, etc. when they become available in Europe due to the different copyright laws.

Now THAT I can understand. And agree with. Thanks Felser.

MG

And here's another issue - no resale value. If I buy a CD and don't like it, I can sell or trade it and recoup part of my lost value, plus sometimes CD's even appreciate over time (ehllo Mosaic). All of this is taken from me with downloads. Which should make a person much less willing to explore music, to take a chance on something. I don't doubt that I'll eventually pay the $10 to download something like the missing Archie Shepp and Marion Brown Impulse titles if that's the only reasonable way to get them, but I certainly won't be exploring, the way I do with CD's. And bothe the companies and I will be poorer for it.

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When you have music after it's downloaded, it's gone, in the air.

You can never buy or sell it again.

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Yes, the Verve Vault offers out of print cds, and Impulse and Verve etc. downloads of cds formerly available in Japan. (It's a great deal. . .10 bucks or less for a clone of a cd that was 25 dollars or so when available at US retail stores!)

So all I'm waiting for is for this stuff to be made available over here.

Yes, I download MP3s all the time MG and burn them onto an audio cd. iTunes lets me choose to burn an audio or an MP3 cd. . . .

So, what's the problem, Clem?

frankly, i hereby DO criticizice ALL ya'll who are paying $$$ for mp3 unless yr lobbying for lossless as well. i don't bother at all-- i'd rather NOT have something but than some compressed digital crap. (which i do listen to on an ipod but ** by choice **, & the cd or whatever is at home.)

It's no good you saying "I criticise". What's the problem? (And please remember you're talking to a tech idjit.)

MG

The problem is that the same $10 that used to buy a digitally remastered CD with bonus tracks, historical liner notes and enhanced packaging is now the going rate for a bunch of compressed mp3 files which have to be downloaded and burned onto a greenback CD-R which is more vulnerable to problems than a real CD, and there is no art, bonus cuts, historical essays, etc. I have so far refused to begin paying for downloads, and at $10 a pop, it should be pretty easy to keep my resistance. I will have no sympathy for the majors and will gladly pay for the CD's on Proper, Definitive, Lone Hill, etc. when they become available in Europe due to the different copyright laws.

Now THAT I can understand. And agree with. Thanks Felser.

MG

And here's another issue - no resale value. If I buy a CD and don't like it, I can sell or trade it and recoup part of my lost value, plus sometimes CD's even appreciate over time (ehllo Mosaic). All of this is taken from me with downloads. Which should make a person much less willing to explore music, to take a chance on something. I don't doubt that I'll eventually pay the $10 to download something like the missing Archie Shepp and Marion Brown Impulse titles if that's the only reasonable way to get them, but I certainly won't be exploring, the way I do with CD's. And bothe the companies and I will be poorer for it.

Another good point. Yes, if it's the only reasonable way to get them, I would go for downloads.

"Reasonable" means different things to different people, of course. It may not be reasonable, at my age, to be prepared to wait twenty odd years before some of the great disco recordings by jazz musicians can be reissued. (And will they EVER be reissued? Some, by the likes of Idris Muhammad, have been. But I reckon you could wait several lifetimes for David Newman's "Scratch my back" and NEVER see a result.)

MG

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When you have music after it's downloaded, it's gone, in the air.

You can never buy or sell it again.

That sound bit at the end of 'Last Date' is chilling! My absolute favorite Dolphy album, bar none, especially "You Don't Know What Love Is".

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In typical douchebag Bergian doubletalk I can hardly make sense of what you're trying to say besides the typical insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

Get a new act and grow up.

I have a great sounding system, listening to it right now, and it sounds good with MP3s too. Get your head out in the air and enjoy the music son.

And I'll just ignore your CHILDISH crack about my mom. Pathetic.

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Magnaminous Goldwax Singles-- the key point is NOT downloads per se but rather MP3 or other compressed formats. They exist for legit reasons & most people who travel use 'em now, to greater & lesser degrees of satisfaction. That said-- there is NOT NOT NOT NOT any legit reason someone selling you MP3s can not also sell you FLAC (i.e. lossless) files too, if you have the 'bandwidth' & you wanna pay.

No, young sir, I get your point. And I do agree with it, in the abstract. But for me personally, as one who can't distinguish between the DG vinyl and McMaster versions of "Workout", though I freely confess I haven't tried to compare an MP3 version with anything I've got, either on vinyl or anything else, it all seems a bit academic. Yes, YOU must have choice, since you want it and you're the fucking customer. I don't buy this stuff ANYWAY (well not yet) so I'm NOT the fucking customer, (since Universal have decided that us Europeans are not to be trusted with their precious downloads), so why should any company take notice of anything I say?

MG

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Making or keeping albums available as dowloads is good, but don't expect label executives and consumers to be aware of the difference between MP3s and lossless formats.

I think the reason why most people prefer CD reissues to dowloads is not because they sound better than MP3s, but because they are a product ready for use, unlike a download that needs to be transferred to a mp3 player or burned to a CD-R.

As an informed user, who knows about both the music and the technological, you will always be frustrated about what the legit business wíll offer you, compared to what is available in filesharing networks. That's an inevitable consequence of the interactive nature of the internet. The official download is not necessarily the best quality download.

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I've got a few downloaded albums/EPs/etc. in mp3 form (bit rate uncertain) that I've burned to regular CD. I can hear a little bit of quality loss, but not enough to ruin my day, if you know what I mean. Since these were "freebies" (hard to come by Monday Michiru Japan-only things found on the NetherNet :g ), I'm content for now. If I'd have had to pay for them, though, I'm afraid that the price/quality issue might become a factor in my determing whether or not it was indeed a good day. That good day could definitely still be had, but not at too steep a price. And I'm still looking for real .wav/CD copies of most all of those items (having found two already), which I think says it all in the end.

Here's my question - is $10 for a downloaded album, regardless of file format, a bargain (or even a "fair" price) in "real" terms, or does it just seem like one in relation to retail CD prices? This is not meant as a "provactive" question either.

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Here's my question - is $10 for a downloaded album, regardless of file format, a bargain (or even a "fair" price) in "real" terms, or does it just seem like one in relation to retail CD prices? This is not meant as a "provactive" question either.

To me a fair price is $0.25 to $0.50 per track, given the quality and the lack of extras. EMusic falls in this category or is better depending on your subscription. The others don't, and I have been extremely reluctant to get anything from iTunes or Verve for that matter. It doesn't help that they generally withhold tracks from shorter albums, so that you have to pay $9.99 even if it is only 6 or 7 tracks. To me, that is unethical, although I suppose if they also routinely offered 18 track CDs for $9.99 (don't think they do but not sure) I might be a bit more ok with it.

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it'll happen before we ever get a proper reissue of the Duke/Peacock catalog... which is to say slightly before never... there have been some good JB reissues but for the most part, they've treated it like crap. the only + side of all this is if they're just throwing in the towel & it'll be easier for the good people to license--

Ace would be my first choice, as they've rocked a lot of King stuff already & have been getting better over the years (tho' they have sometimes omitted session details).

FYI-- anyone reading this, a # of JSP blues/hillbilly ripoff boxes ARE FILLED WITH ERRORS-- TRACKLISTING, RECORDINGS-- I.E. PUTTING A 10-YEARS-AFTER REMAKE ON INSTEAD OF ORIGINAL-- just a head's up that it is best to stick to the few known quality sets, tho' I'll admit I 'plumped' for the second Cliff Carlise set since, as it ** claimed ** to partake of the Joe Bussard collection.

xxoo,

Doc

Clem - Polygram (Universal?) owns the JB material, so I don't think that Ace would have much of a shot getting hold of that stuff and reissuing it. It would be nice tho - they'd do it right.

As for Duke/Peacock - Ace has reissued some of the early r&b recordings. The gospel recordings are what need to be reissued. Acrobat has started to reissue some Peacock gospel. They're boots, but well done - complete, as far as I can tell & with discographies. So far - 1953-54 Spirit of Memphis and a Texas gospel comp (Golden Harp Gospel Singers, The Christland Singers, The Southern Wonders, & others). I'm not big on boots, but I'll be dead before MCA/Universal reissues these recordings, & I don't wanna have to come back to hear them. Besides, the way things are going, by that time boomboxes will probably be considered audiophile sound. :cool:

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Jim, I've considered it a fair price for clones of Buddy DeFranco Japanese Verve cds that sound better than the lp to cdr discs I have of the lps, clones of Japanese Alice Coltrane cds, clones of Japanese Pharoah Sanders and Archie Shepp cds, etc. The diminishment of quality is not prohibitive to my enjoyment, and the price is just on the top edge of okay.

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"top edge of okay" certainly works for me if the goods are worthy, and that's a subjective call for each of us, to be sure!

The cynic/old-enough-to-remember/bitter-cuss in me wonders if "top edge of okay" is going to be where all this ends, or if eventually they're going to be asking us to pony up $17.95 for an album download in whatever format they deem acceptable, and if we want a "deluxe" CD (you know, one with a protective case and some artwork...), well, that'll only be $22.95 (plus postage & handling). Or $2.95 at BestBuy... :g:eye::crazy::blink::alien:

You'd think not, but this is an industry that seems to be able to plan ahead about as good as General Custer, so...

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You'd think not, but this is an industry that seems to be able to plan ahead about as good as General Custer, so...

:g:g

MG

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In comparison the industry makes Custer look like a genius.

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Damn! Custer (a distant relative) just keeps getting razzed. One fatal error and it seems the end of his career eternally! :)

Still . . . he was more ethical than record companies. . . .

Edited by jazzbo

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Yeah, somehow people can't get past that whole Little Big Horn thing with Custer...like George C. Scott's general in "Doctor Strangelove" as a rogue general triggers a nuclear holocaust:

"Mr. President, I don't think it's fair to condemn the whole safeguard program because of a single slip up."

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Yeah, somehow people can't get past that whole Little Big Horn thing with Custer...like George C. Scott's general in "Doctor Strangelove" as a rogue general triggers a nuclear holocaust:

"Mr. President, I don't think it's fair to condemn the whole safeguard program because of a single slip up."

:g

MG

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