Guy Berger Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I have three of this group's albums -- the two Black Saints and the self-titled ECM. I have to admit I find them somewhat disappointing. I like the ECM the best -- it has the terrific cover of "Lonely Woman", along with two fantastic originals ("Togo" and "Guinea") -- but it peters out in the second half. Anyway, in general it seems to me like these guys sounded better when they were playing with Ornette; the main exception is Blackwell, who is fantastic on all three of these discs. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 You're missing the best one (PLAYING), although truth be told, I thought they were more thrilling when I saw them live (back in Spring 1980)... Yea, they were fantastic live. I remember one especially memorable show at Keystone Korner around this time of the year. It might have even been New Years. There were several bands, including one with both Joe and Eddie Henderson. Old and New Dreams had top billing. Don Cherry seemed to be distracted by something. But I'll never forget how Dewey Redman and Ed Blackwell hooked up that evening. Incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinger Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 (edited) I listened to Old And New Dreams (Black Saint 120013) about two years ago and I really liked it.Is my best bet to purchase those two Black Saint titles (the title mentioned above) and A Tribute to Ed Blackwell? Can I skip those ECM titles without losing anything important? Edited December 23, 2006 by Swinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Don't have any problems w/any of the albums myself. Yeah. it's different that w/Ornette, but everybody's playing, and playing well. Vive le differential! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Don't have any problems w/any of the albums myself. Yeah. it's different that w/Ornette, but everybody's playing, and playing well. Vive le differential! What he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 the Blackwell/Dewey duo on Black Saint too. c I should get that. In fact, I need it - how did this slip by? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 It happens. There's so much music out there..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olie Brice Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Fascinating 'new' release, O&ND with Motian depping for Blackwell. The sound isn't great and I'm not entirely sure of the legality of the release, but the playing is sublime - https://conditionwestrecordings.bandcamp.com/album/old-and-new-dreams-live-in-saalfelden-1986 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Olie Brice said: Fascinating 'new' release, O&ND with Motian depping for Blackwell. The sound isn't great and I'm not entirely sure of the legality of the release, but the playing is sublime - https://conditionwestrecordings.bandcamp.com/album/old-and-new-dreams-live-in-saalfelden-1986 Taped from auditorium and for sure not Austrian radio (btw they had an excellent recording standard) .... (IMO) has bootleg written all over it .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milestones Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I love Charlie Haden, but a 17+ minute bass feature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Milestones said: I love Charlie Haden, but a 17+ minute bass feature? He has the intro and later a solo, but otherwise a group effort .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Certainly a boot since they do not have song titles on some tunes. The download is the only option, no CD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Motian in place of Blackwell? Not interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uli Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Olie Brice said: Fascinating 'new' release, O&ND with Motian depping for Blackwell. The sound isn't great and I'm not entirely sure of the legality of the release, but the playing is sublime - https://conditionwestrecordings.bandcamp.com/album/old-and-new-dreams-live-in-saalfelden-1986 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 label has something to do with drummer/visual artist Gregg Simpson from what I understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milestones Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Motian and Haden connected a great deal over the span of many decades, and Motian certainly had a feeling for Ornette and the avant garde. So why not Motian in Old and New Dreams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 It was a good idea during that time, late 70´s if I remember right, there where two different groups of fans, those who preferred acoustic and those who preferred electric, and since Ornette was deeply into electrics with Prime Time, there were attempts of his former bandmates to please those who only dug the classic Ornette Coleman Trio/Quartet. It was very similar to the VSOP, Miles classic quintet with Hubbard replacing Miles who was into electrics (or was taking a break). I think it was mainly Charlie Hadens idea to form that Old and New Dreams. He was an acoustic purist, which was not the case with Ornette and Don Cherry, they were interested in electrics. Anyway, there was a great little record of "Ornette Coleman without Ornette Coleman" in the late 60´s, I think it was called Charles Brackeen Quartet. The man of Joanne Brackeen, who seems to be much better known. But it has Don Cherry, Charly Haden and I think Blackwell, or Higgins I´m not sure. This record sounds very much like an Ornette Coleman record. I´d like to have it , but it seems to have disappeard and was not in the reissue circle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Gheorghe said: Anyway, there was a great little record of "Ornette Coleman without Ornette Coleman" in the late 60´s, I think it was called Charles Brackeen Quartet. The man of Joanne Brackeen, who seems to be much better known. But it has Don Cherry, Charly Haden and I think Blackwell, or Higgins I´m not sure. This record sounds very much like an Ornette Coleman record. I´d like to have it , but it seems to have disappeard and was not in the reissue circle. Rhythm x - it's in the mosaic clifford jordan box so you can make it reappear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Really ? Never thought it might be in the Cliff Jordan Box, since it´s quite far from Jordan´s musical directions. But live is full of surprises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olie Brice Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Milestones said: I love Charlie Haden, but a 17+ minute bass feature? its Song for Che and the whole band plays 5 hours ago, Gheorghe said: Anyway, there was a great little record of "Ornette Coleman without Ornette Coleman" in the late 60´s, I think it was called Charles Brackeen Quartet. The man of Joanne Brackeen, who seems to be much better known. But it has Don Cherry, Charly Haden and I think Blackwell, or Higgins I´m not sure. This record sounds very much like an Ornette Coleman record. I´d like to have it , but it seems to have disappeard and was not in the reissue circle. It is Blackwell on drums, and like Guy said is in the Clifford Jordan Mosaic, along with Wilbur Ware's 'super bass' which also has Cherry and Blackwell (with Jordan on tenor) I wouldn't quite call it 'Ornette without Ornette' though, for sure there's an influence and connection but Brackeen is a true original and Rhythm X is all his own compostions and a vital document in its own right - along with the 2 ECM trios with Motian I would say its the best Brackeen on record Edited November 22, 2017 by Olie Brice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Olie Brice said: .... but Brackeen is a true original and Rhythm X is all his own compostions and a vital document in its own right - along with the 2 ECM trios with Motian I would say its the best Brackeen on record These both Brackeen + Izenzon/Jenny-Clark + Motian are (IMO) still rather unheralded little gems .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 Those ECMs are super and Rhythm X is a very strong staatement. And let's not forget the Brackeens on Silkheart, unheralded too perhaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 1 hour ago, mjazzg said: Those ECMs are super and Rhythm X is a very strong staatement. And let's not forget the Brackeens on Silkheart, unheralded too perhaps Agreed , this one (IMO) a heartbeat or two stronger (with Olu Dara being the difference maker) than Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted November 24, 2017 Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 On 22.11.2017 at 5:21 AM, Guy Berger said: Rhythm x - it's in the mosaic clifford jordan box so you can make it reappear I just ordered it ! Thank you for the kind info, I would never have thought that I´ll find it on a box, and the other CDs also are very very promising. Just as an "aperitiv" for the Mosaic Box with so much Don Cherry on it, I spinned "Complete Communion" yesterday. That´s some memories of my youth. I wanted to get into so called "free jazz" because I was afraid others might laugh at me if I can´t dig into something beyond bop and hard bop. And that guy who had that huge record collection of 90% free music, borrowed me the "Communion" and the "Rhythm X" and that was ideal for a free-jazz starter who´s still a bit afraid of "free", because it has portions of "straight ahead" where the bass walks, like I loved it. "Rhythm X" was a bit further out, but still understandable for a 15,16 year kid. I had both of them on tape, bought the Communion CD later and now I´m lookin forward to hear that Rhythm X. Will bring a lot of memories back, of the shy kid who wanted to be with the "hipsters" ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.