James Brown dies

[Cali]

First, for those of you who were around, do you remember it happening that way?

No. The term Black was in common usage by the time JB recorded "Black and Proud".

The term Black was made popular years before JB's record. People who inspired this redefinition were Elijah Muhammad, the Black Panther Party, Malcom X, Muhammad Ali, Angela Davis, Jim Brown, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown and lots more. James, actually, was kind of late to the game and surprised a lot of us when he got on the bandwagon.

Where I grew up (semi-rural East Texas), "Black" was considered a "militant" word (look at the list above, and you can see why people light-years behind reality on both sides of the tracks might see it this way). An African-American in those parts who referred to themself as "Black" outside of the African-American community was definitely not the norm. But afer JB's record hit, it was. The previously accepted term in the region, "colored", was over immediately. And it pissed a lot of white folks there off that "those people" would suddenly demand to be addressed in terms of their own choosing rather than accept what was offered.

Now, I was only living in one place at one time, but I can't believe that the experience in my region was completely unique.

Well, my friend that's the difference between the north and the south. By 1968, most of us were calling ourselves Black. Even my parents, who grew up in the south were calling themselves Black. And as far as "militant", "Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud" sounds pretty militant to me.

I loved and respected JB but let's not get overly sentimental and attribute things to him that he did not create. People were already saying "I'm Black and I'm proud". It was even being taught to children in Head Start schools. "Black" was being used in the formerly "Negro" newspapers all across the country. Black people were rejecting others definition of them and were defining themselves.

Then after MLK was assasinated in April, 1968 and riots ensued all across the country, Black people were universally pissed off. Any Black person who hadn't been calling themself Black before certainly made the transition. That's when the terms "colored" and "negro" were over immediately. (Remember Los Angeles had already had a riot in 1965. Also, Black people's awareness had increased by the frequent killings of Black Panthers, some of them while they were in their beds, the jailings and brutality that we watched on the nightly news, the enlistments of Black men to go fight in a war in Viet Nam when they had to fight and march for civil rights back home in the U.S.)

"Say It Loud, I'm Black And I'm Proud" was released in August, 1968, after the riots. James was not a leader in this, he was a follower. People were already saying "I'm Black and I'm Proud", he just put it to music.

[Quincy]

** belated props to Quincy for digging up the James & Nixon photo "we" reqeusted-- nice find!

*Dripping with sarcasim*

Yeah, never saw that one before...

Except in the booklet to Star Time.

Yeah, that's REAL hard to find.

Uh, no it's not. There's a shot of him with Humphrey discussing the "Don't Be A Dropout" but I don't see the one with Nixon in my booklet.

I just Googled it and it came off the Rolling Stone site. No biggie, I just get a kick out of those weird Nixon photo ops being a Watergate kid an' all.

You can wipe your drips off your keyboard now.

[Alexander]

** belated props to Quincy for digging up the James & Nixon photo "we" reqeusted-- nice find!

*Dripping with sarcasim*

Yeah, never saw that one before...

Except in the booklet to Star Time.

Yeah, that's REAL hard to find.

Uh, no it's not. There's a shot of him with Humphrey discussing the "Don't Be A Dropout" but I don't see the one with Nixon in my booklet.

I just Googled it and it came off the Rolling Stone site. No biggie, I just get a kick out of those weird Nixon photo ops being a Watergate kid an' all.

You can wipe your drips off your keyboard now.

You are quite right. I have the Nixon picture in a book. The poses are very similar.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Alexander

[J Larsen]

First, for those of you who were around, do you remember it happening that way?

No. The term Black was in common usage by the time JB recorded "Black and Proud".

The term Black was made popular years before JB's record. People who inspired this redefinition were Elijah Muhammad, the Black Panther Party, Malcom X, Muhammad Ali, Angela Davis, Jim Brown, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown and lots more. James, actually, was kind of late to the game and surprised a lot of us when he got on the bandwagon.

Where I grew up (semi-rural East Texas), "Black" was considered a "militant" word (look at the list above, and you can see why people light-years behind reality on both sides of the tracks might see it this way). An African-American in those parts who referred to themself as "Black" outside of the African-American community was definitely not the norm. But afer JB's record hit, it was. The previously accepted term in the region, "colored", was over immediately. And it pissed a lot of white folks there off that "those people" would suddenly demand to be addressed in terms of their own choosing rather than accept what was offered.

Now, I was only living in one place at one time, but I can't believe that the experience in my region was completely unique.

Well, my friend that's the difference between the north and the south. By 1968, most of us were calling ourselves Black. Even my parents, who grew up in the south were calling themselves Black. And as far as "militant", "Say it loud, I'm Black and I'm proud" sounds pretty militant to me.

I loved and respected JB but let's not get overly sentimental and attribute things to him that he did not create. People were already saying "I'm Black and I'm proud". It was even being taught to children in Head Start schools. "Black" was being used in the formerly "Negro" newspapers all across the country. Black people were rejecting others definition of them and were defining themselves.

Then after MLK was assasinated in April, 1968 and riots ensued all across the country, Black people were universally pissed off. Any Black person who hadn't been calling themself Black before certainly made the transition. That's when the terms "colored" and "negro" were over immediately. (Remember Los Angeles had already had a riot in 1965. Also, Black people's awareness had increased by the frequent killings of Black Panthers, some of them while they were in their beds, the jailings and brutality that we watched on the nightly news, the enlistments of Black men to go fight in a war in Viet Nam when they had to fight and march for civil rights back home in the U.S.)

"Say It Loud, I'm Black And I'm Proud" was released in August, 1968, after the riots. James was not a leader in this, he was a follower. People were already saying "I'm Black and I'm Proud", he just put it to music.

Thanks for taking the time to post this, Cali; having been born in '75, this historical context is very interesting to me.

[Cali]

Thanks, you're welcome.

[JSngry]

Cali, you're points are all well taken, and I can't argue with them. All I'm saying is that in my part of the country, amongst people more or less my age at the time (teenagers), that record more or less coalesced and drove home the point that things had changed, and that they weren't ever going to un-change. It certainly wasn't a "defining moment" in cultural identity or anything like that, but it did seem to be one that provided the last push over whatever hump was left as far as taking it to the next phase as far as confronting the white world.

In our area, schools were not completely integrated in1968, we still had that quaint "Freedom Of Choice" thing. The African-American kids who were in "our" school (the insanity of providing "choice to all" only to still keep the notion that there were still "yours" and "ours" was apparent to some of us even then, but insanity was the order of the day when it came to trying to avoid integration by "allowing" it...) all publicly practiced the "go along to get along" thing. What went on at home was often totally different, as I found out a little later when my level of social/personal interaction deepened and I got to see how much of a "facade" was still being put up in communities like mine, where integration was mostly at best "tolerated". But once the kids left home and came to school, there was still the "don't make waves" thing going on.

That record definitely put a big crack in that facade, and it was a crack that let it be known that this was a "point of no return", and indeed it was. I'll not claim that that record was in any way "new" or "cutting edge" in that regard, but I will claim that it certainly seemed to be the final nail in the coffin of an old way of thinking/acting in the world I was living in, one that let everybody know that from here on out, it was time to get busy looking at how things were going to be instead of how things are, or used to be.

Your experiences probably vary (differences between north & south indeed!), but these are mine.

Edited December 30, 2006 by JSngry

[Cali]

Jim, I understand, truly.

In those days I was very much a civil rights activist. I belonged to Push, Operation Breadbasket, US, SCLC and the NAACP. I walked on many a picket line, participated in several demonstrations and attended many, many rallies. Thus I had a pretty good picture of what was happening on the national scene.

Plus I had recently been discharged from the military and served with guys from all over the country. We all were of the same mind when it came to the "Black" thing.

To further put things in perspective, there was a documentary that used to air on PBS during the late 60's and 70's called "The Bloods Of 'Nam". It was a film about Black soldiers in Viet Nam. If there is a print of this in existence, try to get it. It would really let you see what the atmosphere was like in the mid to late 60's in the military, and would give you an idea of the mind-set of guys returning to civilian life. None of us were going to take any sh!t after that. JB's record just echoed what we were saying already. And we weren't whispering, either.

[Alexander]

holy crap, this is too rich: once upon a time there were rekkids: big ones & little ones. curiously, the little ones had larger holes than the big ones, tho' not always. many of these records were on the King label, others from an outfit called Polydor. King was a Cincinnati-based co. that released much of the greatest r&b and hot hillbilly ever to spurt from the loins on Americkay. Syd Nathan, NOT a Jewish hepcat like Jerry Wexler but not quite a philistine was the boss there. James Brown made many many records for King; a goodly # of them were very fine indeed. The first James lp I bought was probably "Back In The Jungle Groove" on vinyl; 2 big records with little holes. let's call it 1986? let's. Can someone explain to me, in the years hence-- whatever "hence" means-- why Ol' Doc Clementine woulda bought with his own wampum & moreover kept a box set from early-ish digital era, esp. when he has all those sounds on VINYL sweet VINYL (not shellac)?

rock on Quincy-- recuse yourself Alfie until and unless you know WDIA, Don Robey, The Country Johnny Mathis. 'til then you're sputtering like some fool high school kid who just got his first "C" & just doesn't get it-- try harder, you ain't special & you sure as hell are nowhere near as informed as you play at being. being & nothingness perhaps? emphasis on the latter.

in our next chapter, My First John Lee Hooker-- Lightnin' Hopkins-- Monk-- Bobby Bland-- Hank Williams-- & Chess Rekkids (which were released on SUGAR HILL of all goddamn places) and "Jimmy Reed Changed Our Lives" also. (Gentleman Jim Reeves? hale no!)

Natty Dread A No Bandooloo,

ODC

Somebody back me up here. This guy's a complete tool, no?

I mean, this is AT LEAST the second time in the last two days or so that Clem's tried to take me to task for coming of age during the waning days of vinyl (I started buying my own music in high school. My turntable had crapped out a couple of years earlier and my folks replaced it with a boombox). We listened to TAPES, Clem, until I was in college. Christmas '92 my folks gave me my first CD player. What was under the tree to play on it? Why it was STAR TIME. You're right, Clem, I should have thrown it back in their faces and DEMANDED vinyl. What was wrong with me?

Of course, now Clem's going to get on my case for the fact that my parents bought stuff for me when I was in my late teens/early 20s. I worked a crummy work/study job and was financially dependant on my parents at the time, but that shouldn't have stopped me from getting myself a sweet audio set-up and filling my student digs with authentic VINYL!

Edited December 30, 2006 by Alexander

[JSngry]

Understood, Cali, and I'll look for that documentary.

You know, I just had a flashback to a classmate of the time, a really funny guy who was in retrospect more than a little "high strung". He let it be known early on that his older bother had moved to California & was involved in the Panthers. At the time, that was kinda like a WOW thing for us white kids (at least the ones who didn't run away in fear ), but now I realize that for this kid, coming to school with us every day and "getting along" might have taken a helluva lot of "acting", and that the "high strung" part of his personality might have been more just "personality".

I mention him in this context, because I remember him any number of times spontaneously shouting out "SAY IT LOUD" (just that part of the phrase...) to no one in particular out on the playground during recess. At the time, we thought he was just singing the song becaue it was popular, but in retrospect....

All of this to point out, no doubt unnecessarily, that the movement moved at different speeds in different parts of the country with different rates of success (the area I grew up in is probably more racist today than it was then, a dark, dank, rancid collection of human spirits clinging to the spirit of death thinking that's it'll keep them alive). A moment like "Say It Loud..." seems to me to have been a relatively rare one where everybody could be on the same page at the same time for everybody else to know about, like it or not.

And now I'm left wondering - whatever happened to my friend, Randolph Jeffery?

Edited December 30, 2006 by JSngry

[Cali]

You mean Randolph Jeffery, the past Sergeant At Arms of the National Chapter of the Black Panther Party???

[JSngry]

[ghost of miles]

I'm sure there are better books around (& would be happy to hear recs), but a good introductory primer for this period is William Van Deburg's NEW DAY IN BABYLON: THE BLACK POWER MOVEMENT & AMERICAN CULTURE, 1965-1975. Clem, you're a New Yawkah--got any love for Benjamin Davis? (Bird played a benefit for him.) I think he's generally treated as a footnote these days, but he seems to have been a very significant figure on the Harlem/NYC political scene in the 1940s. (He pops up frequently in Naison's COMMUNISTS IN HARLEM DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION; one of these days I'm going to get around to reading the fullblown bio.)

[JSngry]

Who killed Fred Hampton? Or, Who Killed George Jackson?

Clark Terry?

[felser]

Alfie, the only back up you need is a cpl steps-- a cpl more steps-- ONE more-- & into a puddle, a pool, a lake, a river-- something that'll wake yr dead ass up, dipshit. You front abt Startime pix, well diggity doosh-- there are plenty of other ways. You are witless, dreary & need to shut the fuck up a few (a few more) years, listen hard, & travel, if possible, before even faking such surety. I ain't thrilled to break it down like this, boy, I'm feeling generous. You can PayPal my mentor fee c/o the ACLU, gracias. (Big ups to Little Willie John regardless--

***

[continuing]

while sometimes a useful rubric-- esp. for weeding out simps stoops & dolts (see above)-- the North <---> South dichotomy is far too reductive in ways that tend to favor Yanquis' more 'liberal' self-perception. tho' diminished, both the regional & local still persist, esp outside the increasingly marginal(ized) Brutha' <---> Ofay dialectic. this ain't to dispute much of Kali, tho' I'd insist we need to be detailed (& I suspect he'd agree) but I do suggest Northerners check it before gettin' all down on South. segregation was one thing-- everything else is... everything else & the riots in Harlem & Brooklyn before MLK Boulevard was finished don't get mentioned often enough, tho' Detroit and Los Angeles and Newark, etc. were more spectacular.

from what I know of East Texas-- which is somehting tho' not nearly as much as Elder Sangrey-- it's a verrrrry regional, localized area (outside Houston) to this day. Nick Tosches did a George Jones piece once that limned things pretty well as Tex points out, that area is a swell place for some folks to hide-- those who don't like that can (& do) git the hell out. That doesn't let anyone else off the hook either, however, whatever words were hot at diff places, times. Who killed Fred Hampton? Or, Who Killed George Jackson? which I recommend way before ANY known documentary, not that I'm dismissing that at all, just that book, by Jo-Durden Smith, is far too obscure for it's quality & the questions it raises-- which ain't just the one posed by the title by a long shot.

re: the Pantha's, yah I've known some to greater & lesser degrees. one dude was Oakland native & poet, taught in the Cali prison system a long time too. At one point, I probably read every primary source book there was & sampled a good bit of the other literature (underground press).

Tex & Kali, ya'll know Ringolevio by Emmett Grogan? without preface or qualification, i strongly recommend it, tho' we can discuss what it is, "means" after that.

okie doke, OUT-- Kali, yr a swell cat so I'll was goofin' Hannibal Marvin Peterson cuz I thought you'd understand. He does live in BK (last I checked) & he's still a race man-- understandably so, tho' that shit's still pretty misunderstood also.

Promise Is Comfort to a Fool,

Doc

Doc,

Recommend you make a choice here. Do you want to spend your posts addressing the discussion at hand, in which case a few people may keep reading your comments, or do you want to spend it dissing anyone who doesn't meet your qualifications of "authentic", which to varying degrees seems to be most anyone that would dare question you on anything. If your posts keep being of the latter variety, you'll deservedly lose your voice here, through the "ignore" options, either on the site or in our heads.

[Noj]

Tears welled up in my eyes when I saw the photos of James Brown in his casket. I'm no expert on the history of music or American history or black culture in America, but I loved the music that man gave to all of us. My sorrow at his passing is that of a genuine music fan with a deep-rooted love for all that is funky.

I remember going down to Music Plus in Burbank when I was a teen to buy the JB's set Funky Good Time, The Anthology. This was my introduction to James Brown's music. I was blown away. I thought I'd found the holy grail of music listening. I remember playing it for my friends and we all agreed that this was the best band we had ever heard. Now, back then I had heard very little music and to this day have not heard as much music as many on this board--but hell if the JB's aren't STILL the funkiest band I've ever heard.

James Brown is the funkiest man who ever lived. Rest In Peace.

[felser]

James Brown is the funkiest man who ever lived.

Now THAT'S an assessment we can ALL agree with! Good place to end the other conversation and move on.

[Guy Berger]

JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

I don't think Nasser and Sadat were black -- they were north African Arabs.

Guy

[Cali]

JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

I don't think Nasser and Sadat were black -- they were north African Arabs.

Guy

Both of them said they were. Sadat addressed the Black Caucus and affirmed this and even promised financial contributions to the caucus shortly before he was killed.

[Cali]

James Brown is the funkiest man who ever lived. Rest In Peace.

Amen.

[Guy Berger]

JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

I don't think Nasser and Sadat were black -- they were north African Arabs.

Guy

Both of them said they were. Sadat addressed the Black Caucus and affirmed this and even promised financial contributions to the caucus shortly before he was killed.

Regardless of what they said, if they were black there are a whole lot of black people around the Mediterranean and Middle East.

Guy

[Harold_Z]

JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

I don't think Nasser and Sadat were black -- they were north African Arabs.

Guy

Both of them said they were. Sadat addressed the Black Caucus and affirmed this and even promised financial contributions to the caucus shortly before he was killed.

Regardless of what they said, if they were black there are a whole lot of black people around the Mediterranean and Middle East.

Guy

Interesting exchange.

imho it demonstrates that "race" (and racism) is in the eye of the beholder. It is a matter of perceptions and pre-conceived perceptions.

[JSngry]

I thought it was Gene Ammons who was Jewish...

Or was that just at Carnegie Hall?

[Jim Alfredson]

RE: The interview with KRS-One that clem posted...

Now THAT's what I call hyperbole!

[Guest youmustbe]

To each their own lives....For me, as much as I loved Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino et al, it was hearing Charlie Parker's Ko Ko on Savoy 120014 at the age of 14, that hooked me to the Black Experience In Sound.

[ghost of miles]

To each their own lives....For me, as much as I loved Chuck Berry, Little Richard,

Apologies if I missed someone mentioning it upstream in the thread, but Little Richard was a major influence on Mr. Brown.... in fact, JB subbed as Little Richard a couple of times and then took over his tour dates when LR retired from the scene in '57. In fact, I think some of Little Richard's band ended up as members of the Famous Flames.