montg

verve downsized

103 posts in this topic

Why doesn't "Megacorp announced today that it will be be be brining back 2500 jobs to America that it had outsourced" cause a rise in Megacorp's stock price? Because everybody's convinced themselves that it shouldn't. If enough people would say, "Hey, you GO Megacorp, bring those jobs back home!" and start buying Megacorp's stock as a show of support, then hey, stock prices go up, right? Pretty soon, GiantInc says, "DAMN, we gotta keep up w/Megacorp. We better bring some jobs back home too!" And on and on it goes. New perception creates the new reality that drives the new perception.

I don't know all that much about economics, but it sounds like what you are calling for here is inflation. Artificial increase in stock prices due to demand?

No, it isn't inflation.

Guy

What is that called? A buying frenzy? I'm sure there's a term for it.

Stock prices are based on perception, on expectation of future performance. Past/present performance is only one aspect of that. Remember the dot com boom/bust? The boom had everything to do with the allure of the then seemingly limitless potential of the internet technology, almost nothing to do with the actual performance of the companies. The bust came when the realities prevailed in the future projections, not because the actual businesses somehow started to do worse. Has Amazon had a profitable quarter yet? I know for many years they hadn't. It was years before major cable interests like CNN, ESPN, and MTV turned profitable. Think that kept their stock prices depressed? Good jobs will return to the US when the US government makes that a public policy priority and gives tax breaks to companies for creating good jobs. That's what public policy is supposed to be about, enabling desirable outcomes in a free enterprise system (I'm sure I'll get nailed from both the right and the left for that statement!). That's why you get a tax break on your mortgage payments, because it's good for people to own houses. That's why there are now starting to be education credits, because it's good for the US population/work force to be educated, etc.

Edited by felser

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So the operative term would be "fantasyland".

Oh, great. First they're downsizing Verve, and now Fantasy?

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If it's a fantasy to hope for people to use their money to encourage and reward certain behaviors, then so be it. "Socially responsible investing" is not a fantasy. It's a means of empowerment.

Remember - it's your money to do with what you want. That gives you power, power to direct the course of society. Money is power, definitely. Certainly not the only type of power we have, but an immediately recognizable and difficult to deny power nevertheless. To surrender that power to the easy allure of an easy return that may have negatives social consequences (and this has damn little, if anything at all, to do with record companies and reissue programs, let me make that clear), is to give up your power, your voice, your leverage, just for the quick money. It's kinda like being a ho'.

And if you think your pimp is gonna care for you once he's gottten out of you all he can get, well sir, that's a fantasy.

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If it's a fantasy to hope for people to use their money to encourage and reward certain behaviors, then so be it. "Socially responsible investing" is not a fantasy. It's a means of empowerment.

Remember - it's your money to do with what you want. That gives you power, power to direct the course of society. Money is power, definitely. Certainly not the only type of power we have, but an immediately recognizable and difficult to deny power nevertheless. To surrender that power to the easy allure of an easy return that may have negatives social consequences (and this has damn little, if anything at all, to do with record companies and reissue programs, let me make that clear), is to give up your power, your voice, your leverage, just for the quick money. It's kinda like being a ho'.

And if you think your pimp is gonna care for you once he's gottten out of you all he can get, well sir, that's a fantasy.

Totally with you on this.

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If it's a fantasy to hope for people to use their money to encourage and reward certain behaviors, then so be it. "Socially responsible investing" is not a fantasy. It's a means of empowerment.

Remember - it's your money to do with what you want. That gives you power, power to direct the course of society. Money is power, definitely. Certainly not the only type of power we have, but an immediately recognizable and difficult to deny power nevertheless. To surrender that power to the easy allure of an easy return that may have negatives social consequences (and this has damn little, if anything at all, to do with record companies and reissue programs, let me make that clear), is to give up your power, your voice, your leverage, just for the quick money. It's kinda like being a ho'.

And if you think your pimp is gonna care for you once he's gottten out of you all he can get, well sir, that's a fantasy.

Well, I suppose, but when you look at how markets actually move -- mostly through the transactions of truly enormous pension funds, university portfolios, mutual funds and hedge funds, there really isn't that much that concerned individuals can do to swing the market around, although one can invest responsibly at a personal level. Interestingly, there have in fact been lawsuits that ultimately forced all public universities to invest like "everybody else," rather than in a socially responsible way. I'd like to get figures on what the proportion of socially responsible mutual funds are compared to the entire market -- one recent estimate is it is about 3% of the value of the US market, but growing slightly. Here's a website to start you on your way: Socially responsible investing

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If it's a fantasy to hope for people to use their money to encourage and reward certain behaviors, then so be it. "Socially responsible investing" is not a fantasy. It's a means of empowerment.

Remember - it's your money to do with what you want. That gives you power, power to direct the course of society. Money is power, definitely. Certainly not the only type of power we have, but an immediately recognizable and difficult to deny power nevertheless. To surrender that power to the easy allure of an easy return that may have negatives social consequences (and this has damn little, if anything at all, to do with record companies and reissue programs, let me make that clear), is to give up your power, your voice, your leverage, just for the quick money. It's kinda like being a ho'.

And if you think your pimp is gonna care for you once he's gottten out of you all he can get, well sir, that's a fantasy.

Well, I suppose, but when you look at how markets actually move -- mostly through the transactions of truly enormous pension funds, university portfolios, mutual funds and hedge funds, there really isn't that much that concerned individuals can do to swing the market around, although one can invest responsibly at a personal level. Interestingly, there have in fact been lawsuits that ultimately forced all public universities to invest like "everybody else," rather than in a socially responsible way. I'd like to get figures on what the proportion of socially responsible mutual funds are compared to the entire market -- one recent estimate is it is about 3% of the value of the US market, but growing slightly. Here's a website to start you on your way: Socially responsible investing

Yeah, I know it's an uphill climb, to put it mildy. No illusions here. But it's a climb worth making. More unlikely turnarounds in public consciousness have happened.

If the principle that collective individual monies can be used to reward/punish certain "behaviors" is a fallacious one, then I recant. But I don't think that it is. And if it's not, then the rest, as a techno-futurist buddy of mine likes to put it, is "just a matter of engineering". :g

Edited by JSngry

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Why doesn't "Megacorp announced today that it will be be be brining back 2500 jobs to America that it had outsourced" cause a rise in Megacorp's stock price? Because everybody's convinced themselves that it shouldn't. If enough people would say, "Hey, you GO Megacorp, bring those jobs back home!" and start buying Megacorp's stock as a show of support, then hey, stock prices go up, right? Pretty soon, GiantInc says, "DAMN, we gotta keep up w/Megacorp. We better bring some jobs back home too!" And on and on it goes. New perception creates the new reality that drives the new perception.

I don't know all that much about economics, but it sounds like what you are calling for here is inflation. Artificial increase in stock prices due to demand?

No, it isn't inflation.

Guy

What is that called? A buying frenzy? I'm sure there's a term for it.

I hate to contradict Guy, but in certain contexts, especially legal contexts, any excess in a stock's price above it's "true value" (the definition of which is invariably a point of contention) is called "inflation". In particular, if the hiring of new workers does not add value to the company but does cause its price to increase, then the hiring would be said to lead to "inflation" in the stock price.

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"true value" (the definition of which is invariably a point of contention) is called "inflation". In particular, if the hiring of new workers does not add value to the company but does cause its price to increase, then the hiring would be said to lead to "inflation" in the stock price.

Point of contention indeed!

So who gets to define that "true value"? Is this not the crux of the matter/battle right there?

I say that allowing something/somebody to define what is/should be "valuable" to you is nothing more than volunteered slavery.

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Economically, you'd have to determine whether the additional workers increase or decrease the present value of the company's future cash flows. But I realize that you are getting at a different point with your question.

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The problem with all these companies is the size of staff (count the credits listed on a typical Verve VME release) and the inflated (entertainment biz) pay these folks received.

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Economically, you'd have to determine whether the additional workers increase or decrease the present value of the company's future cash flows. But I realize that you are getting at a different point with your question.

Quite!

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I don't know all that much about economics, but it sounds like what you are calling for here is inflation. Artificial increase in stock prices due to demand?

No, it isn't inflation.

What is that called? A buying frenzy? I'm sure there's a term for it.

I hate to contradict Guy, but in certain contexts, especially legal contexts, any excess in a stock's price above it's "true value" (the definition of which is invariably a point of contention) is called "inflation". In particular, if the hiring of new workers does not add value to the company but does cause its price to increase, then the hiring would be said to lead to "inflation" in the stock price.

Interesting. This isn't inflation in the economic sense, but I learn something new every day!

Guy

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The main reason I mentioned it is that equity analysts sometimes use this terminology, so I thought that may have been where .:.impossible picked it up. [Also, it can be a handy thing to know in certain interview contexts ;) ].

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And if you think your pimp is gonna care for you once he's gottten out of you all he can get, well sir, that's a fantasy.

PIMMS ??

When I hung around the French Quarter in New Orleans the only pimm's I could find was at

the Napoleon House bar. It was Pimm's No 1 :crazy:

=====> :crazy: <====

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FWIW, I know one "exec" at a jazz label who was "let go" and he moved to an island to rest in luxury for the rest of his life as the result of his "benefit package". This is a guy I wouldn't hire to direct traffic.

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Was it by any chance a desert island?

And if so, what 5 artists' work (or 10 BN albums) did he take with him?

These things matter, doncha' know!

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sorry to interrupt your weird economic discussion, but there's this fine 2CD set collecting the 54/55 Columbia albums of Rugolo's:

c4317.jpg

There's another 2CD set on Freshsound but I don't know what it contains (details are on the website, but no labels/albums mentioned).

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I distribute Fresh Sound in NYC....I forget about J&R, I don't go by there since they order what they order...at Tower I would stop by and talk them into ordering things, or more copies than they wanted, but I had no orders at all for the Rugolo...Just one of those things!

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That's rather sad, isn't it? I mean I most likely picked up the only copy ever in any Zurich store (unless you go there and make them get one for you, that they do, but it often takes 2-3 months, so the internet is my way of choice, even more so since stores are much too expensive here).

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There's another 2CD set on Freshsound but I don't know what it contains (details are on the website, but no labels/albums mentioned).

This one:

B000FBFWQQ.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_V60593949_.jpg

It has all the sessions recorded by Pete Rugolo for EmArcy/Mercury with the cream (at least the vast majority) of the West Coast musicians from July to November 1956. The various tracks appeared on albums like 'Music For Hifi Bugs', 'Brass In Hifi', 'Reeds In Hifi', 'Out on a Limb' ...

Plenty of solos by the likes of Don Fagerquist, Pete Candoli, Frank Rosolino, Ronny Lang, Bud Shank, Howard Roberts, etc...

Shelly Manne is on drums throughout and Joe Mondragon is also on all tracks and provides superb bass playing!

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2006 US sales numbers from an article in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer - album downloads- 32 million. Album CD sales 588 million. Don't buy the hype of the inevitability of downloads needing to replace CD's. Downloading is a singles, pop, disposable phenomenon.

Edited by felser

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2006 US sales numbers from an article in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer - album downloads- 32 million. Album CD sales 588 million. Don't buy trhe hype of the inevitability of downloads needing to replace CD's. Downloading is a singles, pop, disposable phenomenon.

Full article.

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There's another 2CD set on Freshsound but I don't know what it contains (details are on the website, but no labels/albums mentioned).

This one:

B000FBFWQQ.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_V60593949_.jpg

It has all the sessions recorded by Pete Rugolo for EmArcy/Mercury with the cream (at least the vast majority) of the West Coast musicians from July to November 1956. The various tracks appeared on albums like 'Music For Hifi Bugs', 'Brass In Hifi', 'Reeds In Hifi', 'Out on a Limb' ...

Plenty of solos by the likes of Don Fagerquist, Pete Candoli, Frank Rosolino, Ronny Lang, Bud Shank, Howard Roberts, etc...

Shelly Manne is on drums throughout and Joe Mondragon is also on all tracks and provides superb bass playing!

Thanks for posting some detail, I'll have to look for this! Freshsound has turned into a great reissues enterprise in the last two years or so. Before, their covers and liners and layouts and docuemtation often were rather shabby, I found... but these and recent JazzCity reissues, too, are a fine bunch!

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Hopefully Fresh Sound will be able to sell online from the States and not from Spain with the Fedex charge. Now that retail is over.

BTW Verve/Universal had 120 plus employees in America in mid-nineties. They are down to 12 today. So, go on believing that 'record companies' will be around in a few years to pay rent, hire employees, pay their medical coverage and press compact discs, with all the costs including warehousing, returns etc. The technological future of 'recordings' will be decided by today's young generation, not old fan(atic)s, collelctors like us, who want everything to stay the same.

And oh yeah, I get a kick how some of my Jazz musician friends, who scream about the perfidy of record companies, when they want some thing that I have, never ask 'where can I buy it?', but always say, 'can you burn me a copy?' I guess what's not good for the goose, is good for the gander.

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And oh yeah, I get a kick how some of my Jazz musician friends, who scream about the perfidy of record companies, when they want some thing that I have, never ask 'where can I buy it?', but always say, 'can you burn me a copy?' I guess what's not good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Whenever I have a friend or associate who has made a recording, I always buy it out of my pocket. Usually I do it online before it is "released".

I mean if a friend can't gladly buy a copy, who will?

Same goes for club dates mostly, but if I take a comp, I make sure I spend my money at the bar or restruant and tip big as I can.

A oldtimer taught me that lesson a long time ago. If you don't spend, they will not come.

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