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Fresh Sound & Lone Hill Reissues Discussion

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In this case, the Lonehill people found some of the Koch CDs, burned copies and came up with their own "artwork" and "liner notes". How anyone can defend this is beyond me. Sony is the legal owner to this music. Anyone who uses it without their authority is breaking the law.

There ain't no justice in them Andorran hills.

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There are a very large number of worthwhile re-issues to get on both Lone Hill and especially Fresh Sound.

Here are just a few that have not been mentioned that I can quickly suggest.

Lone Hill

Dave Bailey Quintet/Sextet - The Complete 1 & 2 Feet In The Gutter Sessions

I am sure the still-living Mr. Bailey would love that.

While it's unfortunate that Mr. Bailey won't likely see a dime, he wouldn't see any money if the recordings weren't issued at all either. I'd like to think that if there was any significant profit to be made by releasing these more "officially" that someone would have done so by now. So given that he wouldn't see any dough either way, I'd be more interested in hearing if he'd prefer his legacy to remain unissued or at least reissued in this "grey" manner so that more people can be exposed to his past musical accomplishments.

This probably is not about Dave Bailey, unless he is still getting royalties.

In a legitimate business environment, Lonehill would LICENSE the rights to the recordings from Epic (presumably Sony) - just like Koch did when they issued the Dave Bailey stuff a few years ago. Licensing involves a NEGOTIATION and PAYMENT to the rightful owner.

In this case, the Lonehill people found some of the Koch CDs, burned copies and came up with their own "artwork" and "liner notes". How anyone can defend this is beyond me. Sony is the legal owner to this music. Anyone who uses it without their authority is breaking the law.

Please read carefully what i wrote - you're completely missing my point...

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There are a very large number of worthwhile re-issues to get on both Lone Hill and especially Fresh Sound.

Here are just a few that have not been mentioned that I can quickly suggest.

Lone Hill

Dave Bailey Quintet/Sextet - The Complete 1 & 2 Feet In The Gutter Sessions

I am sure the still-living Mr. Bailey would love that.

While it's unfortunate that Mr. Bailey won't likely see a dime, he wouldn't see any money if the recordings weren't issued at all either. I'd like to think that if there was any significant profit to be made by releasing these more "officially" that someone would have done so by now. So given that he wouldn't see any dough either way, I'd be more interested in hearing if he'd prefer his legacy to remain unissued or at least reissued in this "grey" manner so that more people can be exposed to his past musical accomplishments.

This probably is not about Dave Bailey, unless he is still getting royalties.

In a legitimate business environment, Lonehill would LICENSE the rights to the recordings from Epic (presumably Sony) - just like Koch did when they issued the Dave Bailey stuff a few years ago. Licensing involves a NEGOTIATION and PAYMENT to the rightful owner.

In this case, the Lonehill people found some of the Koch CDs, burned copies and came up with their own "artwork" and "liner notes". How anyone can defend this is beyond me. Sony is the legal owner to this music. Anyone who uses it without their authority is breaking the law.

Please read carefully what i wrote - you're completely missing my point...

In all likelihood, the interests of Dave Bailey were (unfortunately) signed away years ago. The only one that can do anything about Dave Bailey is the legal owner of the recordings. And they DID a few years ago by licensing this stuff to Koch. Lonehill does not get to play Robin Hood (and make a profit at the same time).

Anyway, this discussion is probably in the wrong Lonehill thread, so enough from me.

Edited by Eric

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Wasn't this supposed to be a recommendation thread and not the usual nobody-makes-any-money-if-Europeans-rip-it-all-off-whining one?

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Okay, my bad example re: Bailey. I'm not familiar with his work and didn't realize his albums were recently available on Koch. But my general question remains: if the rights holders to the original albums refuse (for whatever reason) to allow the official release of the material, would the original artists (who are likely elderly or deceased at this point) and/or their heirs be more interested in the money due them (likely a small amount at this point) or to have their art made available again to the public? Don't get me wrong, I generally don't approve of how Lone Hill and other such labels operate, but I do feel they perform a service by occassionaly releasing material that no one else will touch. Part of the problem you find in copyright issues (and not just music, but books and film works as well), is that there's a gap in profitability. If the legal rights holders feel they can make a profit by releasing the material officially - by paying royalties, etc. - they most likely will. But with much of the more obscure music that we obsessive fans covet, it's not profitable to release the material and pay everyone what's rightfully due them. Only by putting this out post-copyright (and thereby not paying royalties) can some material ever come out. It's an unfortunate catch-22. Hopefully internet distribution will lower costs and allow some of this stuff to be more cost-effectively distributed in the future.

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Buy the Farlow set. Top notch music, there. Not available easily elsewhere.

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When you think of it, ideally, all the musicians on a record should get something if the record is reissued, not just the leader. And what about the producer? How about the recording engineer without whom it would not be possible? How about the designer of the cover? And should everyone's heirs get a piece in perpetuity?

It's not just a matter of musicians getting ripped off back in the day. Who would have thought in say 1938 say, that making a record for Commodore would one day be worth money? Not even the 12 inch was a gleam in anyone's eye, much less compact disc.

And who would have dreamed in 1990, having a high powered lawyer negotiate a deal with say, SONY, that some kid would invent NAPSTER, and that it would all go down the drain!!!

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It took you 49 minutes to pee???

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One of the oddest things I found in this range of labels was the "Definitive" issue of the Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall set that Legacy had reissued. I have them both, and I have to say that the sound on the Definitive seems a whale of a lot better to me. There is less surface noise, but it doesn't seem to these ears as if the music suffers. It's weird because I had assumed that this was a typical Andorran rip-off, but it seems to have been remastered, and frankly, remastered *better* than the far more expensive, more hyped (and better documented) Legacy release. Did anybody else find this to be so?

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Did anybody else find this to be so?

Yep, and there's a thread somewhere around here about it too.

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For instance, total no-buys would be:

- the Definitive rip-off of the Mingus Forties East Coast sides (originally a *terrific* Uptown release)

- the Definitive rip-off of the Parker/Gillespie 1945 Town Hall concert (again originally on Uptown)

- the Jazz Factory version of the Quintet's "Jazz at Massey Hall" (Debut/OJC/Fantasy/Concorde [why can't they even spell their name correctly? :g )

- the Jazz Factory Horace Silver Trio (originally on Blue Note)

- actually almost any "complete Blue Note" or "... Verve" package on Jazz Factory (possibly just Jazz Factory in its entirety should be forgotten!)

While I agree that it would be wrong to buy the Mingus and Parker/Gillespie Uptown clones, I don't really see the problem with purchasing the Massey Hall or Horace. It's been over 50 years for both.'

Guy

Why differentiate the Mingus and Parker/Gillespie CDs? I think I know why - Chuck's here and considered a friend. But they're well beyond the 50 year EU term, so if that's the only criteria, buy 'em. I can see if people say, "I won't buy the Mingus and Parker/Gillespie CDs because I want Chuck Nessa's label to succeed." But if you think the 50 year rule is fine for Horace Silver and the Quintet, then it's fine for these as well. Why not screw Chuck's label out of some return on investment too? <_<

As never pointed out, I started this thread not to have yet another one of these never-ending discussions, but now you started it, let me say something, too...

I don't agree about Silver or The Quintet - as long as there's a legit product around, I'll buy that one. In the end, if BN wouldn't release the Silver, Definitive couldn't rip it... It's in all our interest that the actual owning company does release their stuff.

I don't care if the 50 years have gone by or not, if there's both an original and a rip-off, it's perfectly clear which route to go, for me.

And Kevin, not everyone has been around to buy all these kinds of original issues and reissues decades ago. Also they're not everywhere as easily found as they seem to in parts of the US.

And a side note on Koch: they long ago ceased to release anything, no? Their distribution over here has been inexistant, the four or five discs of them I got are nice, but all lucky scores. I'd much prefer them, for instance, over Collectables reissues of the same albums, but since they're not available, what choice does one have? Ok, we don't have no fucking right to hear it all, but omigod this is pathetic!

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My stance is to largely avoid the blatant rip-offs where a superior "official" release is readily available. I've only 3 Definitive/Lonehills so far

Tal Farlow Fuerst/Second Set- 2CD not sure if this has another CD issue

DeFranco/Sonny Clark Quartets/Quintets 2 CD ex Verve

Eddie Costa/SalSalvador Complete 2CD

I like the music have no complaints re the sound but the packaging is poor and the liner notes not great.

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My stance is to largely avoid the blatant rip-offs where a superior "official" release is readily available. I've only 3 Definitive/Lonehills so far

Tal Farlow Fuerst/Second Set- 2CD not sure if this has another CD issue

...

I guess you know Tal Farlow's Fuerst & Second Set came from two Xanadu LP issues.

As for CD reissues, take your pick here for FUERST SET:

CRCJ-5509 (Japan 1994)

TKCB-71530 (Japan 1999)

Xanadu FDC-5160 (EPM France 1988). Entitled “Tal Farlow at Ed Fuerst’s” this CD includes the material from “Fuerst Set” and “Second Set” excluding “Out of Nowhere” and “Let’s Do It.”

Definitive DRCD 11263 (Blue Moon, Spain, 2003). Entitled "Tal Farlow - Complete 1956 Private Recordings", this is a 2-CD unabridged reissue of "Fuerst Set" and "Second Set."

... and this (plus the last two above) for SECOND SET:

CRCJ-5510 (Japan 1994)

TKCB-71531 (Japan 1999)

Everything found easily through Google on the Tal Farlow website.

Now go figure the rest out for yourself... ;)

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Definitive DRCD 11263 (Blue Moon, Spain, 2003). Entitled "Tal Farlow - Complete 1956 Private Recordings", this is a 2-CD unabridged reissue of "Fuerst Set" and "Second Set."

just to be clear this is the CD I have- I forgot its correct title

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Yeah, so I figured. Just wanted to point out the comparative plethora of (re-)reissues of this material. ;)

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Another way of looking at it....Idris Muhammad's drum break on what was it, Alligator Boogaloo? was sampled umpteen times...yet Lou Donaldson got all the money as composer. Idris told me that Lou refused to give him any money, until many pleas later, Lou gave him 2500 bucks, that's it. I don't blame Lou, but like with Funky Drummer, shouldn't Clyde Stubberfield get the money and not James brown and his manager? But that's not what the Law and Order is!

For example, Brahm's Hungarian Dances, or for that matter all the Bartok folk stuff that is registered as his compositions are actually folk songs and not theirs. Today they would not be allowed to put their name on the songs.

I was reading in a bio of Ravel that he left his estate to his housekeeper, who in turn left everything to a distant relative in New Jersey. According to the bio, written in late 90's, that person takes in between 1 to 2 million a year in royalties of Ravel's works, Bolero, of course, being the biggie.

No problem, it's nice when it falls in your lap. I was informed in October that I own half a block of downtown Belgrade. I'll take it!

So, yeah, Idris was for hire and the record deal was with Lou and the song credit, same for Clyde, it's just that Lou and JB were the beneficiaries of the change in technology.

But, the technology of today makes other things possible, some of them detrimental to copyright laws, so it makes it tough to "Do The Right Thing'.

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The moral/legal debate aside, with the major labels apparently abandoning their reissue programs and unwilling to license what they're sitting on, EMI content to reissue the same Blue Note titles over and over - and the jury's out on Concord - we might have few options for older material in the future. Domestically, it may come down to a few concerns - Mosaic, Collectables, and an occasional title from smaller labels like Mighty Quinn or Wounded Bird. Lonehill might be looking pretty good, since none of us is content to play the 5000 titles we already have and need to buy something else.

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For instance, total no-buys would be:

- the Definitive rip-off of the Mingus Forties East Coast sides (originally a *terrific* Uptown release)

- the Definitive rip-off of the Parker/Gillespie 1945 Town Hall concert (again originally on Uptown)

- the Jazz Factory version of the Quintet's "Jazz at Massey Hall" (Debut/OJC/Fantasy/Concorde [why can't they even spell their name correctly? :g )

- the Jazz Factory Horace Silver Trio (originally on Blue Note)

- actually almost any "complete Blue Note" or "... Verve" package on Jazz Factory (possibly just Jazz Factory in its entirety should be forgotten!)

While I agree that it would be wrong to buy the Mingus and Parker/Gillespie Uptown clones, I don't really see the problem with purchasing the Massey Hall or Horace. It's been over 50 years for both.'

Why differentiate the Mingus and Parker/Gillespie CDs? I think I know why - Chuck's here and considered a friend. But they're well beyond the 50 year EU term, so if that's the only criteria, buy 'em. I can see if people say, "I won't buy the Mingus and Parker/Gillespie CDs because I want Chuck Nessa's label to succeed." But if you think the 50 year rule is fine for Horace Silver and the Quintet, then it's fine for these as well. Why not screw Chuck's label out of some return on investment too? <_<

As never pointed out, I started this thread not to have yet another one of these never-ending discussions, but now you started it, let me say something, too...

I don't agree about Silver or The Quintet - as long as there's a legit product around, I'll buy that one. In the end, if BN wouldn't release the Silver, Definitive couldn't rip it... It's in all our interest that the actual owning company does release their stuff.

But the Horace was released decades ago -- even if EMI took it off the market NOW, that bird has flown. At this point, I'm indifferent to who owns the material and only care about the value of the product.

I don't care if the 50 years have gone by or not, if there's both an original and a rip-off, it's perfectly clear which route to go, for me.

It comes down to value, for me. If another company offers a better combination of quality and price, and it's been 50 years, I'm all for it.

Guy

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I like the Byrd/Gryce Jazz Workshop series on Lone Hill.

I'm interested in those three as well.

Also, the Definitive packaging of the Chet Baker material makes a whole lot more sense than what EMI has done with it.

I got the Gambit Records compilation of the early Chet Baker Sings sessions not

long ago. All the studio stuff fits on one disc. But EMI keeps milking that cow and

still won't offer a complete set of this, only countless incomplete compilations.

I'll probably get the "Complete One and Two Feet in the Gutter" Dave Bailey

compilation from Lone Hill soon. It seems one of the three albums included

still isn't available on CD individually and there's one bonus track that was

only available on some sampler LP previously. Once again I can only wonder why

the original company behind these recordings doesn't offer this material this way.

Let me add that on the other hand I'm quite disgusted at their recent Mosaic rip-off

(Carmell Jones/Harold Land) and will definitely be buying the Mosaic Select instead.

Edited by Kyo

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Doesn't the old "Best of Chet Baker Sings" contain all his vocal cuts (save one that was on the Baker/Freeman West Coast "Connoisseur" with otherwise instrumental only 1953 material)? I always thought I had it all... Baker-wise, I still own all the old BNs and none of the new ones, but eventually I'll have to import them (the euro version are copycrap).

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Doesn't the old "Best of Chet Baker Sings" contain all his vocal cuts (save one that was on the Baker/Freeman West Coast "Connoisseur" with otherwise instrumental only 1953 material)?

No, the four tracks with strings from February 28 1955 are missing from that one.

Probably just a matter of not having enough space in those early days of CD mastering.

I'd buy a remastered edition with all the material from EMI if they bothered to release one.

I always thought I had it all... Baker-wise, I still own all the old BNs and none of the new ones, but eventually I'll have to import them (the euro version are copycrap).

Yeah, it's good that you brought that up. The copy protection idiocy would

be another reason for me to go for the unofficial releases in some cases.

At least they've finally stopped that recently, but you still have to be careful

when buying EMI discs from between 2003 and 2006. Really annoying!

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Did anybody else find this to be so?

Yep, and there's a thread somewhere around here about it too.

Benny Goodman's 1938 Carnegie Hall concert thread

Late again, huh? :blink: Well, at least some other people agreed that the sound on the Definitive was better! Thanks for the link, though. I didn't know all that about Schaap.

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An excellent idea for a thread! There is such a plethora of releases from this conglomerate of labels, and with different titles than the original releases that a guide certainly is needed.

The labels just get more numerous too. Recent additions are Groove Hut, apparently devoted to organ-based soul jazz, and Essential Jazz Classics, which should be avoided since the material is guaranteed to be available from official labels.

I'll try to make some contributions to this thread.

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I'll start with this, a Fresh Sound release from 2005:

B00067ZOMQ.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

This double CD contains:

1) The complete Hampton Hawes Memorial Album on Xanadu

(three live sessions from 1952 and one from 1956)

2) The Hawes half from the Xanadu album The East/West Controversy

(a live session from 1951)

3) Hawes' first studio session under his own name from September 10, 1952, recorded for Discovery, and later issued on various Savoy anthologies, including Black California.

4) Hawes' second studio session under his own name from December 1952 recorded for a Prestige 10-incher, and later released on a 12-incher, coupled with a 1955 Freddie Redd session, titled Piano East/Piano West. This is the most readily available material since this album has long been out on an OJC CD.

5) A Harry Babasin session from 1952 cut for Discovery

6) A lone trio track from a 1955 Bud Shank/Bill Perkins session for Pacific Jazz. It was included on the Shank/Perkins West Coast Classics CD.

Another way of putting it is that this release contains Hawes' complete pre-Contemporary leader sessions, both live and studio (plus four tracks from 1955-56 and the Babasin session).

This is the type of release that seems to have been done with knowledge and care.

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