Matana Roberts

[frankie]

Frankie -- Based on what I've heard, I don't think of Roberts as a big "harkener back."

what do you mean?

I mean that her playing, while aware of those aspects of the jazz past that strike her as attractive, is rooted in the musical present as she sees it and also seems to me to have a basic newness to it language-wise. In particular, she's never struck me as one of those players who makes a gesture in the direction of "the tradition" as though that ought to earn her some extra credit.

thats interesting, I think that makes sense to me too. Though I hear her dealing with new language somehow I have also always heard this traditionalist aspect in her approach. And I guess it reminds me of some of her chicago forebearers... I mean not to be critical-- she still has a lot to work on musically speaking i think-- but at the same time I feel like she is constantly evolving her sound and approach in way that I hear a traditionalist type of integrity that many avant players I have heard the past few years just don't have.

[alocispepraluger102]

shame shame.......

matana has been discussed a few times here. i bought from her a self produced hand painted solo recording of all ellington music, dedicated to the then recently departed steve lacy, and will buy more.

when she lovingly investigates ellington's songs, some beautiful influences emerge, not the least of which is ravel.

she is most delightful and gracious.

when she is playing her horn, it doesnt matter what her sex or attire. she is a dedicated, dead serious, accomplished, masterful, sensitive artist.

[Guy Berger]

Now anyone out there interested in talking about her music not her fashion choices? Would love to continue a healthy conversation about it if you have the time.

thanx.

Frankie,

Hang around here. People sometimes get "involved" in these discussions/arguments, it's nothing personal.

Guy

[frankie]

Now anyone out there interested in talking about her music not her fashion choices? Would love to continue a healthy conversation about it if you have the time.

thanx.

Frankie,

Hang around here. People sometimes get "involved" in these discussions/arguments, it's nothing personal.

Guy

Thanks for the note. Needed to hear that as this posting experience made me and my wife feel pretty disturbed.

[P.L.M]

I've seen her (in Belgium) a year and half ago in a trio setting as supporting act to FRED ANDERSON.

A good player but nothing groundbreaking.

As her clothes, she didn't wear (alas) any tutu on this date but a very sober brown dress who covered her from her neck to her feet.

Edited January 20, 2007 by P.L.M

[jlhoots]

As I said earlier in this thread I think Matana is well worth hearing whenever possible.

Doesn't matter what she wears (IMO).

Frankie - thanks for starting this thread.

[frankie]

I've seen her (in Belgium) a year and half ago in a trio setting as supporting act to FRED ANDERSON.

A good player but nothing groundbreaking.

As her clothes, she didn't wear (alas) any tutu on this date but a very sober brown dress who covered her from her neck to her feet.

I agree. She is a solid player. not really a techinical nut it seems, more of a sound player I think. Groundbreaking? maybe not, or atleast not yet in my ears. But I think she is well on her way. As she is developing with a steadiness that speaks to a certain kind of artistic integrity that I've only seen in some of my most cherished heroes.

[JSngry]

Listened to her clips on her My Space page, and yeah, she sounds good to me.

So she's young, still developing but serious, and likes to have fun with her clothes. I really don't see a problem.

She'll be old soon enough.

[frankie]

Listened to her clips on her My Space page, and yeah, she sounds good to me.

So she's young, still developing but serious, and likes to have fun with her clothes. I really don't see a problem.

She'll be old soon enough.

I guess when I see her and also hear some of her contemporaries I wonder-- as person of african diasporic roots-- what has happened to the black avant-garde community that was so strong a while back, that you would have think would have spawned an even stronger legacy among up and coming generations of black artists. She seems to be part of a very thinnnig rank. Anyone have any constructive thoughts on that?

[JSngry]

Wynton's brainwashing campaign.

Oh, sorry. You wanted constructive thought.

sorry.

[frankie]

Wynton's brainwashing campaign.

Oh, sorry. You wanted constructive thought.

sorry.

no that was pretty constructive-- just to the point.

I mean say what u will about Wynton-- i don't really care much for him-- but i feel that he is carrying on a section of the jazz legacy thats important. And frankly more people are aware of him than artists like Matana and her cronies. Maybe we need a "wynton" of the avantgarde? Maybe Ornette is now that person. I don't know.... a friend pointed out that it has a lot to do with black folks not wanting thier kids to be "entertainers", but i think it goes a lot deeper than that. And i'm gonna say the dirty words first: "jazz education"

any thoughts?

[clifford_thornton]

There is another thread about that very subject.

Do a Wynton Marsalis or a Stanley Crouch search, and you'll hit it. No need to take Matana into that realm.

Ornette is the Ornette of the avant-garde...

[ep1str0phy]

...and as a fairly young "student" of these older idioms, I don't think we need a Wynton of anything. It is possible to teach jazz history--theoretical, social, whatever--without parochialized, exclusivist punditry, and it's similarly possible to transfer the lessons and repertoire of the past without obstructing progress. The AACM, of course, showed us that ancient and future could co-exist.

Inasfar as the "avant-garde" (60's free jazz? AACM/BAG? Thirsty Ear stuff?) has become an institution in and of itself, there's no reason that we can't teach these lessons--and the rhetoric of aggressive freedom and aesthetic progress--from an historical perspective. It's just dangerous, I feel, to parade the "avant-garde" as the "avant-garde" when the burgeoning new guard (wherever they may be, if they exist at all--and sometimes I feel like a "lone watchman", on that level) may be coming from an alternate musical perspective (the video of "Keeping Time" that JS posted a day or so ago representing one example). In other words, we run the risk of cutting the future off at the knees when half-a-century-old philosophies continue to act as the "advanced" guard. Ornette is my Bird just like Bird was Ornette's Bird, but I'm fairly convinced that the music of the future will not be what we have come to know as free jazz, although it may certainly draw from that well.

Edit: mindful of C's comment, not looking to start another firespitting contest--only that education in the modern perspective (w/reference to the younger generations, Matana's included) might be germane here.

Edited January 22, 2007 by ep1str0phy

[clifford_thornton]

I use "avant-garde" as a term like some use "jazz" - not because one necessarily wants to, but because parlance dictates its use to describe something. We all know what someone is talking about when they say "avant-garde jazz" or "free jazz," whether or not the term is in-itself appropriate or conveys what the music is really about.

Sure, the new breed are coming out of their own perspectives and time as much as they are their teachers and record collections, but I think it's fair to look at players on the level of a continuum. Hence, I think it's valid to compare (if cursory - haven't spent a TON of time with her music) Matana and Arthur Jones. I don't think that such a historical outlook necessarily devalues Matana, or anybody. The music is moving, but as much as new forms are produced, one cannot (and perhaps should not) step outside of history's circles. A recognition of history will help to entrench forms more firmly (to paraphrase Clem... Greenberg) in the artistic continuum, even as the product seems as far away from Bird/Ornette/Cecil/Louis/Duke as one could get.

My uncle told me of his first CMIF class with Leo Smith, maybe in the late '70s. Expecting to engage in free improvisation, he was surprised when Leo started the class by playing note-for-note Louis Armstrong cornet solos from early Hot Fives records. I'm not going to claim myself as an arbiter of tradition, but I do respect how important history can be to those making a contemporary mark.

Also, do we feel that there is a lack of education/community in creative music? I mean, it seems that way to me, but may be more symptomatic of society than of the music itself. I don't know. Obviously, at one point the AACM, BAG, CMIF and other groups were very active on the music-education front. I think this was also true of some of the NY lofts of the '70s - community centers, education centers, and musical performance spaces.

Hoping Sangry chimes in with a bit more "eloquent" thoughts on the matter.

[JSngry]

Nothing eloquent here. All I can say is let people be who they are, let people make the music that comes from them being who they are, don't fuck with them for being who they are instead of who they aren't, and let things take care of themself, like they will anyway.

[ep1str0phy]

Just out of curiosity, C--your uncle did the CMIF thing? What were his experiences with Smith's end of things?

On a more "semantical" issue; we proceed with terminology as we must (and not necessarily just because we can). It's not the words that bother me; it's that when we don't look past free jazz as an historical innovatory option (and not the absolute utmost that things can be) we run the risk of getting stuck in the 60's (sonically, if not spiritually; if we--as in the community--were spiritually "with" the post-Aylerian axis, or, moreover, the AACM cats, the music world of today might be different).

The decreasing viability of improvised music among the youth may have as much to do with its association with bygone eras and ancient esoterica as it does with simple matters of taste. I think it's important to emphasize that the "old" avant-garde is a historical entity and that what younger people (like Matana) play is related but isn't the same thing as what came before. Surely "avant" today is not what "avant" was yesterday, even if the continuum remains... (in other words, contrary to what might be popular opinion, the functional "jazz" avant-garde of today isn't entirely comprised of pre-baby boomers.) Then again, I speak from the perspective of someone who is most likely to unexperienced to not quibble over rhetoric, tho I'm not sure things will work out when my beard gets white.

As per my perspecitve on the education/community thing: it's there when you can find it, but it's certainly not where it could be. The Bay Area, for example, is one of the three to five most fertile regions for improvised music in the United States; the scene here is flourishing in outlets and cubbyholes, although among the handful of nationally/internationally prominent institutions in the area, only one or two offers any extensive course of study in improvised music performance (Mills comes to mind; Berkeley was and will remain a composer's school, and very centered on the post-Wyntonian straight-ahead mindset). Considering who has come in and out of the Bay Area, though (Leo Smith being one very prominent example), the options for study in this area are decidedly guerilla).

Edited January 22, 2007 by ep1str0phy

[clifford_thornton]

I tend, myself, to get pretty tired of the 60s-rehash thing, which has been de rigeur in some circles since, well, the '70s... and continues to this day. It's tough, though: as much as free-music or whatever is looked at as a necessity (rather than one option of many), it can easily become self-indulgent. As freedom is just one thing to pull from the bag, it seems to be much more viable - looking at people like Steve Lacy, the ICP, Mingus, it seems like that diversity is a crucial way of moving "forward." But then, those references are age-old...

Sure, I don't think it's the same thing - Peter Brotzmann isn't even playing at all what he played 35 years ago - the reference is there, the "nod," the idea that he (and we) are part of this continuum of creative music. I don't want new beyond what's new to me; nor do I want old. I want now, however it comes to me. It just so happens that now is an Eternal Now, and can be actualized in music made at this moment, yesterday, 1995, 1982, 1970, 1949, or whenever.

I'll quote Bill Dixon (from the liner notes to the '62 quartet w/ Shepp):

"We do live in the present and tomorrow or for that matter, five minutes from now IS the future. And, for better or worse, the musical statements in this album do echo feelings that definitely did not start WITH the group and most certainly will not end with it."

As for my uncle, I think he found Leo to be a great teacher. He was nurtured and enjoyed being part of the CMIF groups, and was encouraged to lead his own band from that well of musicians. Unfortunately, he didn't continue with it much past the early '80s (choosing instead to mine other artistic avenues). But Leo, Pavone, Naughton, Yohuru Ralph Williams and George Alford were all pretty important to his development at the time. He also participated in some Braxton and AEC workshops, I think, fwiw.

[frankie]

But no here seems to be really dealing with the racial divide head on. Sorry to have to bring it back to that. On one of Matana's website pages she speaks of the fact that the International Association of Jazz Education has "black caucus", and laments about the strangeness of that. Honestly I didn't believe it until I looked into it myself. I'd like to know your thoughts on why this music is not touching the descendants of the forbearers of this kind of music. The fact that it touched someone like Matana or say Guillermo Brown puzzles me as well. But the fact that an International jazz organization has to have a section dedicated to racial diversity amongst an art form that in many ways wa brought forth by american black people, I find this troubling. Though maybe I don't really completely understand as I'm from the islands( Haiti)....

[clifford_thornton]

The racial divide...

Hmm. Never thought about that!

[clifford_thornton]

In all seriousness, though, the fact that racial divides exist within every subgroup is a given. Yeah, I'd rather it not be so, and to a degree some of these divides have been bridged. Music happens both in spite of and because of this divide.

So jazz/creative music/improvisation is not wholly embraced by African-Americans, and I suspect it's for the same reason it's not wholly embraced by most of society. In other words, it is uncommercial. Again, a given, and we go from there...

[ep1str0phy]

Well, to introduce a common but completely unproven/non-scientific point, it may be the case that the "jazz"/creative music of today is so alien (not just sonically, but socially, demographically) to urban Black youth that the exigencies of "suffering for" or committing to the art just aren't there anymore. We can debate the causalities a million ways, but it is equally pertinent to diagnose the symptoms in this case--which perhaps no one is prepared (either spiritually or technically) to do. The prospects for playing this music, even as a means toward individual enlightenment/determination/empowerment (etc.), cannot be quite what they were communally or politically in the mid-late 20th (if the pull ever was that strong, but I can't answer that), and--especially in an era when self-fulfillment is often equated to glamor and excessive wealth--modern improvisation (in all its tropes) is a challenging creative option. It could very well be that this just isn't where the fire is anymore (Olu Dara's son, Marion Brown's son (etc.) are all engaged--creatively--in other timely musical pursuits).

Has anyone here really stepped back and looked at the demographics for this music? (I've had a hard enough time coming to terms with being a Filipino up in here...)

(actually hoping that clem will chime in on this, as he seems to have something to say on the free music/Black youth axis)

[clifford_thornton]

especially in an era when self-fulfillment is often equated to glamor and excessive wealth--modern improvisation (in all its tropes) is a challenging creative option. It could very well be that this just isn't where the fire is anymore (Olu Dara's son, Marion Brown's son (etc.) are all engaged--creatively--in other timely musical pursuits).

Again, I would say that that cuts across racial lines, but I could be wrong. I am not a student of sociological research, or at least haven't done any w/r/t this music.

[Larry Kart]

It could very well be that this just isn't where the fire is anymore (Olu Dara's son, Marion Brown's son (etc.) are all engaged--creatively--in other timely musical pursuits).

The same goes for Anthony Braxton's son. I haven't heard Braxton's son's music myself, but my son -- a member of the Chicago-based rock band Crush Kill Destroy

http://www.crushkilldestroy.net/rock/ckd/

-- has and says that his stuff is excellent.

[ep1str0phy]

especially in an era when self-fulfillment is often equated to glamor and excessive wealth--modern improvisation (in all its tropes) is a challenging creative option. It could very well be that this just isn't where the fire is anymore (Olu Dara's son, Marion Brown's son (etc.) are all engaged--creatively--in other timely musical pursuits).

Again, I would say that that cuts across racial lines, but I could be wrong. I am not a student of sociological research, or at least haven't done any w/r/t this music.

Sorry, diidn't mean to imply that it's a phenomenon specific to the Af-Am youth. I'd say it's more specific to youth culture in general (and an extrapolation of the seedier parts of what used to be the hip-hop subculutre, amplified themselves into something grotesque).

[ep1str0phy]

It could very well be that this just isn't where the fire is anymore (Olu Dara's son, Marion Brown's son (etc.) are all engaged--creatively--in other timely musical pursuits).

The same goes for Anthony Braxton's son. I haven't heard Braxton's son's music myself, but my son -- a member of the Chicago-based rock band Crush Kill Destroy

http://www.crushkilldestroy.net/rock/ckd/

-- has and says that his stuff is excellent.

That completely blows my mind. I'd certainly like to hear A. Braxton's perspective on that generational transformation, as I don't believe I've ever heard him articulate on the circumstances of youth culture.