Blindfold Test #1 - Discussion

[Noj]

Thanks a lot DrJ and Dan Gould for making this possible. I have listened to this cd four times and took notes while I listened, making constant revisions. The sheet of paper is 1/2 written and 1/2 scribbled out...

I am not going to venture guesses as I simply do not possess the knowledge. These represent my best effort to briefly review each of the 14 tracks. I have not clicked on any of the links posted, and I have only read the first two pages of this thread then lightly scanned the rest--most of which seemed to be posted in a dialect I've not learned to decipher. I intend to read the entire thread, links and all, after I post this.

TRACK1 The guitar playing reminds me of piano playing one might hear accompanying a silent film. The guitarist nimbly teases the tune through the changes...I like it.

3.5 stars

TRACK2 The drummer is on to something here that I can't put words to, but it becomes apparent to me in the latter portion of the song.

3 stars

TRACK3 The drummer seems to be the star of the show, continually changing it up and demanding my attention. The simple chorus the song returns to is strong but not exceptionally rewarding to these ears.

3.5 stars

TRACK4 I love songs that dramatically change pace, something this one does well. The segments with piano augmented with vibes and harp are exceptionally nice; not too sweet despite leaning that way. At one juncture the sax player seems to reference a Coltrane song (3:12-3:37).

4 stars

TRACK5 The tune seems akin to "Bye Bye Blackbird" in that it sounds happy while somehow maintaining a bittersweetness to it, if that makes any sense at all.

3.5 stars

TRACK6 Slower-paced stuff is usually appealing to me, and this is no exception. Would I be wrong to suggest it sounds somewhat Vince Guaraldi-ish? The brushwork on the drums is tight.

4 stars

TRACK7 Latin-twinged goodness. Once again a drummer is killing it on yet another DrJ-selected track; fluid playing through the changes. My favorite track so far.

4.5 stars

TRACK8 The support is tastefully done, and this dude plays a mean fiddle. In the closing solo the violinist plays some sequences that would gut-check any heavy metal guitarist. Not really my bag though.

3.5 stars

TRACK9 I like the intro/outro a whole lot, I almost wish they would have expanded on that idea further. Great track regardless.

4 stars

TRACK10 Hitting me in all the right ways. The frequent stops and starts sound difficult to execute and really hold my interest. These cats were all over it.

4 stars

TRACK11 The intro almost went into the Christmas Carol "Joy To The World" on me...odd free associations aside, I was tappin' the ol' toe to this one all the way through. I like the sax player's tone and the piano player makes exceptional use of his solo space.

4 stars

TRACK12 At first listen, I began to think it was a bit too "out" for my tastes. However, in the short 6:46 that followed, I could tell it was growing on me as a few bright moments shed light on some of the surrounding sounds that left me in the dark. The vocalizations were somewhat distracting.

Not Sure Yet

TRACK13 The tone of the guitar player is really cool against that near-insect like drumwork. Good stuff.

3.5 stars

TRACK14 Furiously fast playing going on here. Insanely fast, jeez the drummer is a friggin' madman-whoa, it just dropped into a bass solo...hold on a second, that was nuts! Let me play that again.

4 stars

Thanks again Dan and Tony. Can't wait to read the thread in depth and click on the links. Also greatly anticipating putting names to the sounds.

[Noj]

Well, rake me across the coals, just a few minutes of going back and reading others' reviewing skills I can tell mine are piss-poor. Can I subscribe to the discs and post nothing about it at all so as to avoid embarassing myself? I can hardly identify an instrument (wouldn't be suprised if I made errors trying), much less who is playing it.

[relyles]

Because the United States Postal Service decided to cause some damage to the first disc Dan sent me I am late getting into the fray here. In light ond all the posts on this thread already I will assume that there is not much new that I can add so I will keep my comments brief this go around.

One thing an exercise like this does is expose the limits of your knowledge. After listening to this disc I realize that there is still so much music out there that I have not heard. I do not believe that I have heard any of the recordings that the tracks on the disc came from. I can not identify any of the tracks, but on many of them the musicians sounded familiar and I am sure that if I listened to the disc a few more times I can identify many of the artists. I am sure I am going to feel stupid when I read the precediung posts and finally learn the track list.

I will say that although I have never heard the recording before, I am pretty sure I heard Miles, Coltrane and Cannonball on track four, which I think was an interesting arrangement of Jitterbug Waltz. Also, I do know that it was Joe Henderson on track 11. Sorry guys, can't commit to much more than that, but there was some really good music on the disc. Nice compilation.

I have been humbled.

Edited September 6, 2003 by relyles

[Daniel A]

Some comments, then:

#1 - I'm not at all familiar with this era, so I wouldn't even dare to take a guess.

Leaves me a bit indifferent. **½

#2 - I have this. There are tons of other great stuff from this artist from the late

50s/early 60s. Undeservedly little known, and unfortunately it will probably never be either. ****½

#3 - I would have thought that the drummer was Kenny Clarke, but it appears to have been confirmed that it was not the case. Or? Mono recording, which suggests that it's either recorded pre-1960 or in obscure European studio. ****

#4 - Have this too. I wish that the arranger/leader could have spent more time within jazz. ****

#5 - The saxophonist's tone and vibrato reminds me about how Lucky Thompson could sound, but he didn't play that fast, did he? Fast playing á la Griffin often sounds as it comes just too easy to really be involving. This sounds different to me, though. ****

#6 - Thoughtful piano playing (that sounds somewhat thought out in advance). ***

#7 - The altoist's phrasing sounds boppy enough to make me think that this is perhaps older than I first thought. The theme sounds as if it's a late 60s thing. Can't say that it grabs me too much. ***

#8 - Don't think I have any jazz violin in my collection. The vibrato of the first violinist makes me a bit nervous. I like the second one better, although it doesn't sound as if he's plaing with a smile (in contrast to soloist No. 1). **½

#9 - Turned out to be more straightforward than the intro suggested. Not my bag, though. ***

#10 - Some mildly unorthodox voicings first suggested to me that it's not arranged by anyone who was making a living by handing out faceless stuff to others orchestras. But I could be wrong. Could it be some obscure 70s Ernie Wilkins album? ***½

#11 - The tenor player is obvious enough. I don't think I have anything by the trumpeter, though. A player who came of age during the 70s, but got lost in the shuffle because he persisted with playing hard bop and then never really breaked through, perhaps? Fine as it is, just a tad too formulaic for me. ***½

#12 - Is this marimba? Probably not anyone I've heard of. Initially, I though this wasn't anything for me, but the arranged part in the middle saved the day. And the following marimba (or is that perhaps a plain xylophone?) solo is not at all that out than I would have thought. It appears to grow onto me. ****

#13 - Really creepy soprano sound, and sometimes just to sweet in tone for me. Nice guitarist, though. ***

#14 - I know what this is. It's some distance from what he (the pianist) usually is doing. Can't say that I've ever heard him play a jazz standard. I've heard him play the Fender Rhodes more than once, though. Do you want a link, or wait for Tony's Monday post? ****

I really wanted to develop this a bit more, but I'm out of time for now. However, this test is a great concept which I hope will live on!

[Jim R]

Well, rake me across the coals, just a few minutes of going back and reading others' reviewing skills I can tell mine are piss-poor. Can I subscribe to the discs and post nothing about it at all so as to avoid embarassing myself?

NO WAY!

Seriously, Noj, I enjoyed your analysis. You provided some interesting insights (personal though some may have been) into the music itself, and I think that's refreshing. We could all do more of that, giving our personal feelings about how the performances make us feel, etc.

[Jim R]

Daniel, regarding track 14... is there any chance that the pianist is from your country? B) I knew I was probably off when I mentioned Rubalcaba and Ozone (dead silence followed ), and I assume that this is a player I've never heard before. Anyway, sure- post a link! We're about to get the answer anyway, so you might as well tell us!

[Daniel A]

All right, Jim!

Here's what was on track 14

If you happen to come across any pictures of the pianist on that website... he doesn't have that haircut anymore.

Edited September 6, 2003 by Daniel A

[Noj]

Well, rake me across the coals, just a few minutes of going back and reading others' reviewing skills I can tell mine are piss-poor.  Can I subscribe to the discs and post nothing about it at all so as to avoid embarassing myself?

NO WAY!

Seriously, Noj, I enjoyed your analysis. You provided some interesting insights (personal though some may have been) into the music itself, and I think that's refreshing. We could all do more of that, giving our personal feelings about how the performances make us feel, etc.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Jim R. I hope I have indeed contributed something of value.

[Jim R]

Hey Noj, in a perfect world, I can imagine having you paint (or sketch) something to correspond to each track- now THAT would be cool! B) Call me greedy...

[Jim R]

Daniel, that's cool- I've never heard of him, but I just had a hunch about his location.

[JSngry]

Total guess here, but howzabout that altoist being Carlos Ward? Born in Panama.

Robin Kenyatta still calls to me, but I can't find a matching recording.

[Jim R]

Total guess here, but howzabout that altoist being Carlos Ward? Born in Panama.

Robin Kenyatta still calls to me, but I can't find a matching recording.

I came across Ward's name too, during some web searching. I had heard of him, but I know ZERO about him. Same with Kenyatta, actually. The thing that still puzzles me is what the age of that recording is. At first I assumed it was vintage late 60's, but when I began to think about how influential the music of that period was, it occurred to me that it could have been recorded much later (not unlike the situation with #11).

I don't know why, but I've been kind of leaning toward europe on this one all along. It's just a hunch- I can't base it on anything, really. The only european altoist that I could think of right off the bat was Jaques Pelzer, but I guess he's too early to fit with this style. At any rate, Jim, I wonder if we've exhausted the possibilities of that aforementioned "series" (the one that #3 came from)... I guess those are all probably too early, though...

Edited September 6, 2003 by Jim R

[Daniel A]

At first I assumed it was vintage late 60's, but when I began to think about how influential the music of that period was, it occurred to me that it could have been recorded much later (not unlike the situation with #11).

Are you discussing track 7? I haven't a clue on pure musical grounds, but doesn't it sound as if it's recorded in mono? It doesn't sound as it's from an LP (which could be a mono pressing), so I suppose the recording must be in mono. In that case it couldn't be much later than the early sixties, not even if it was recorded in Europe (which seems to have been a few years behind the US in adopting stereo recording).

Now, track 14 is in mono, too, and it was recorded much later. I have no idea why (most of the album the track came from is in stereo, but with a few mono tracks in the middle).

[Brad]

Like Relyes, I have beeen humbled. But that's ok, you can only learn when you realize when you know what you don't.

Anyway, here goes:

Track 1 - Don't really know. I'd guess Django, just because the recording sounds a little old.

Track 2 - Only one I figured out on my own. Once again, thanks to Jim Rowan, he knows what I mean.

Track 3 - Since you guys dropped so many clues, I was able to figure out. I have the cd. Now, that's embarassing. I know Lon and Tod Irzyk are big fans of this guy, especially Tod. He probably has all there is from him as a leader. Really enjoyed this.

Track 4 - This must be a Gil Evans production. Just sounds like that to me. I certainly heard Miles in there, as well as Cannonball. Very unusual arrangement I have to say but liked it very much.

Track 5 - My favorite on the whole disc. I have to have this. This stuff swings incredibly and his solo is out of this world. Be embarrasing if I have this. I'll bet I probably do.

Track 6, 7 - No idea.

Track 8 - I don't really care for violins but if ever an arrangement would change my mind, this is it. Really nicely done. I've got a sneaking suspicion that this is Stuff Smith's Hot Violins.

Track 9 - No guess here.

Track 10, 11 - I really love these Big Band arrangements. I don't know who it is however. I want to say Gerald Wilson on Track 10. If it is and it's from the Mosaic, that's on my Christmas wish list.

Track 12 and 13 - Don't care for this. Found it annoying actually.

Track 14 - No idea who this was until Daniel A made the posting. I'd like to get this cd. Really very nice.

Again this is a great idea.

[JSngry]

Jim, I think #7 is an older recording (mid-late 60s) based on the recording sound - the studio sound, the mix, and the piano sound. It REALLY sounds like an Atlantic recording to me, but I find nothing in the Atlantic catalog that scream out "HERE I AM!!!", so I don't know. But that piano sound screams "ATLANTIC" (or Vortex or Embryo) to me, so I don't know. Once you get into non-American studio and label sounds, I'm pretty much lost, save for Tonstudio Bauer & ECM. And I could maybe, MAYBE, pick out a BS/SN label/studio sound on an artist I didn't know. Maybe. And besides, once stuff gets digitally remastered, you're often left with residual studio/label sound anyway, not the full deal.

Kenyatta (born in Martinique, I believe) has this same type of lush, rhapsodic alto tone, as well as this kind of faciltiy and melodic sense. His Vortex album on Atlantic would be a logical choice, except that I have it, and this ain't on it. Maybe he did a sideman date that slipped under my radar, but I don't think so. I WANT to pick either him or Sonny Fortune (and Leo Wright still, maybe), but there's not the discographical evidence to support doing so.

Ward I know only through the odd sideman appearance. He's recorded quite a bit with Ibrahim, but Ibrahim is one of those artists of whom I like virtually everything I've heard, but just haven't explored in any kind of depth. No good reason for that either, jsut haven't gone there yet.

How about Dudu Pukwana? Now there's somebody I've NEVER heard. If this is him, then that's my loss! His reputation is not of being this type of player, but since I've never heard him, reputation don't mean squat to me.

[Jim R]

Jim, I think #7 is an older recording (mid-late 60s) based on the recording sound - the studio sound, the mix, and the piano sound.

Intersting stuff, Jim. What did you think about Daniel's mono/stereo observations? There may be something to that in terms of figuring out a place and time, but I can't quite see this recording dating to the early 60's, based on what the saxophonist is doing (I'm hearing a lot of early 60's Coltrane influence on this). I would have thought there would have to be a delay of at least a few years for this altoist to be reflecting that. I could well be wrong, though, what with the natural ability some players have of copping styles quickly...

[JSngry]

The monoi stereo thing didn't register with me because I've been listening to this thing mostly oin the run in a variety of portable settings.

I'm thinking the most likely time frame is between '65 & '72, maybe a few years later if it's a smaller studio.

Now wait a minute...

I've not heard Sonny fortune's Strata-East stuff. The sound is dry like SE, and the piano sounds like one they had on hand for some sessions (maybe that studio bought Atlantic discards ). Or maybe him as a sideman on an SE disc? Fortune was my VERY first guess the first time hearing it, based on the opening melody. The solo took me away from him somewhat (just somewhat, though), but the tone on the opening head had me CONVINCED that it was Sonny Fortune that I was going to be hearing. Then again, by the time Fortune began recording in earnest (after his first date w/an organ group on Prestige & various dates w/Mongo Santamaria), I don't think he'd be doing this type of material.

Now, if this turns out to be Lee Konitz, I'm REALLY gonna be bummed...

Edited September 6, 2003 by JSngry

[JSngry]

What I've found interesting about everybody's comments is that it's got me to wondering how different people "hear" a piece for the first time. Do y'all listen for tone, or rhythm, or vocabulary, or jsut what? And what about studio sound? The Columbia studio & VanGelder studio I could spot right away, but that's just me.

This subject might make for an interesting thread unto itself, something like "What do you hear when you listen?" Hey. I'm a guy who's trying to reach people with my music, and I'd sincerley like to know just "how" it is that different people "hear" music. There are no right or wrong answers either.

MAybe when I have some time to phrase it correctly I'll start just such a thread...

[Jim Alfredson]

Ok so we had an Organissimo rehearsal today and afterwards we all sat down and listened to the CD (I got mine late due to the wrong address... not your fault, Dan... I've moved!)

Anyway, I've scanned this thread briefly, but really didn't read what tracks were who and so on. So we put our heads together and here are the collective Organissimo (The Band) guesses:

BTW, I figured it was ok to name names instead of link. This thread has been up awhile. Most people probably already have their guesses in. And I have a slow ass connection and I'm not taking the time to look everything up on AMG. So sue me!

Track 1 - No real clue. Django would be our guess. None of us had any idea but we all liked it.

Track 2 - J.J. Johnson w/ Stan Getz, Sam Dockery and Connie Kay. Not sure of the bassist. This was mainly Randy's guess.

Track 3 - No clue. My first instinct was Johnny Griffen.

Track 4 - This has to be the classic Miles band with Coltrane and Cannonball, but none of us had ever heard this recording. Joe thought it might be from those "Quiet Nights" sessions. Love that tune, Jitterbug Waltz.

Track 5 - None of us really knew. I guessed Sonny Stitt.

Track 6 - Again, nobody really knew. Joe threw out Bill Charlap.

Track 7 - Another stumper. Randy thought it might be Sonny Fortune.

Track 8 - No clue.

Track 9 - When I first heard the guitar tone I instantly thought "Martino!" but the solos are WAY too sloppy to be Pat. I have no idea who the organist is but I would feel pretty comfortable saying he is not one of the old school players. For one thing he's not kickin' bass pedals at all (FOR SHAME!!!!). For another his drawbar registrations are real funky. If I had to guess I would say it's a pianist playing organ. The name that popped into both Joe and my head, as far as the guitarist, was Ted Dunbar. Don't ask us why.

The intro sounds kind of like a spaghetti western so I wouldn't be surprised if it was some cats from Italy or something nutty like that. The drummer is kind of stiff. Nice solo though.

Track 10 - Randy guessed the Dave Holland Big Band. The rest of us have no clue. Burnin' shit, though.

Track 11 - Joe Henderson

Track 12 - Stephon Harris?

Track 13 - C'mon folks... Metheny?!?! Please!!! Joe thinks you should all be hung for this. It's Abercrombie. Both he and I knew it within 5 seconds! Is that Jan Garbarek? We're not sure but we know one thing. IT'S ABERCROMBIE!!!

Track 14 - Danilo Perez.

That was fun. Great disc, DrJ!! I'd love to do one sometime in the future.

[Jim Alfredson]

Well, I just read this whole thread, top to bottom. We had one or two right and a lot wrong. Oh well... it's was a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to the next and to the official answers.

Can't believe it's not Getz on Track 2. Sounds a lot like him to me.

Track 9 - I have one disc by this organist... a modern release. Didn't care for it much. This piques my interest a little more. I have the guitarist on a different organist's disc.

The organist should be kickin' pedals, dammit.

Track 14 - Joe brought over a copy of Downbeat with an article in it about this guy and his trio because he thought one of the dudes looks like him. He does. Not sure who it is... maybe the pianist.

Gotta get the disc that numbers 3 and 4 are from. That's some good stuff.

[DrJ]

OK folks - absolutely GREAT discussion to this point, and for those just logging in to play, make sure you keep your eyes only on this thread for now and NOT on the one I'm going to post in a few minutes with the "answers" until you are ready. Feel free to keep this discussion going simultaneously, I'm sure there's more than 1 person playing who hasn't yet had a chance to log in with their comments.

[Dan Gould]

I am positively tingling with anticipation. B)

[randyhersom]

Fun, but pretty humbling. Twenty years ago, I used to be able to be able to pick out musician, but that was quate a while ago.

Track one solo guitar, old recording. No real clue.

Track Two West coast sounding, trombone solo first. I admit to being influenced by some comments I'd read before receiving the dIsk. I'll guess JJ Johnson, Stan Getz, Lou Levy, Shelly Manne.

Track 3. I'm guessing Bird on tenor with Max Roach, Curly Russell, Al Haig. I'm not terribly sure he recorded in tenor without Miles, but that's what I'm thinking. A very long track for Bird too, not obviously live. I think I'll back off on Bird. Hmm ... Max as a leader with Mobley or Rollins?

Track 4 Definitely Jitterbug Waltz composed by Fats Waller. Was this on that Modern Jazz Society album that John Lewis put together? Getz, Bags? , I think someone other than Lewis on piano.

Track 5. The solo intro makes me think Rollins, and nothing else is popping out. Major tenor chops, smooth and full of ideas. I'm thinking Horace Silver on piano.

Track 6. I like the eastern sounding solo intro, and indeed the whole track. Not as percussive as I'd expect from Horace Tapscott, but his name entered my mind.

Track 7. Mid period Art Pepper, perhaps? Meets the Rhythm Section? The more I listen the more I think Jay Mac instead. Jackie McLean. I know he recorded some with Pete LaRoca. My mind went back to a good bass solo, I think it was on this track. I thought of Wilbur Ware and Richard Davis, it sounds too late for Oscar Pettiford.

Track 8. I'm thinking this is the Duke Ellington Jazz Violin Summit with Ray Nance, Svend and Stephane. I think one of them plays viola on the date.

Track 9. Definitely a different concept of organ and guitar. I'll guess Grant Green, from Iron City with Larry Young miscredited as Big John Patton. Something about the organ sound calls to mind discussions of the organ sound on that album. If so, that's Ben Dixon on drums.

Track 10. I like the Jones/Lewis big band for this one. Might be Billy Harper on tenor, Roland Hanna on piano. Very exciting arrangement.

Track 11. Still a larger ensemble. Not all that many of them that sound this modern. Not as modern as most Gil Evans I've heard, but still feels too modern for Woody Herman. Very nice.

Track 12. The piano starts out unusually chromatically. Not Cecil's style, but plenty of adventure. Maybe Jay Hoggard on marimba with Geri Allen? Hill and Hutch?

Track 13. Taking us back in to the safe and familiar sound. The guitar calls to mind Metheny while no names pop out on the soprano. Maybe this is from the Joshua Redman album with Metheny, Wish.

Track 14. When I think Jarrett, but don't hear vocalizations, I think Mehldau. Not all of this called up Jarrett for me, but some of it did.

Relistening to track 7, I hear the phrase that called Pepper to mind, but I hear a whole lot more of Jackie Mclean's tenorlike tone.

[Joe G]

Track 13.  Taking us back in to the safe and familiar sound.  The guitar calls to mind Metheny while no names pop out on the soprano.  Maybe this is from the Joshua Redman album with Metheny, Wish.

See B-3er's earlier post above.

[randyhersom]

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. My first reaction was "that's familiar" rather than "That's Metheny", but I wasn't able to dredge up the better fit. I was listening to a Jack DeJohnette tape with Abercrombie and Lester Bowie in the car a couple weeks ago, but didn't make the connection.