Complete Mozart Piano Concertos

[A Lark Ascending]

What works for you works for you.

Quite.

And it's interesting to read what works for others and why they think it does.

Less interesting to read what doesn't work for others and why it should not work for everyone else.

[.:.impossible]

Maybe for you. I have very little knowledge of the music of Mozart and appreciate the idea that this music is "word of mouth" in that you have sheet music and you have other people's interpretations of the sheet music. I suppose this goes for most classical music and I hadn't actually considered it until this thread. My exposure to classical music has been largely public radio, with a few LPs and CDs in the collection. I don't often *think* about classical music, but I have been thinking about this thread these past few days.

[A Lark Ascending]

...but I have been thinking about this thread these past few days.

Then it's done its job.

But I'd recommend looking beyond this particular locker room for other interpretations. The views expressed here on Uchida are by no means widely held. In Clementine's case it's the usual 'bad boy' posturing.

Have a look at the Penguin guide (watch out for incoming!) for a viewpoint that also expresses reservations about the Uchida ('none of the performances of the major works here would be a first choice') but without the hyperbole that seems to be de rigueur here.

[.:.impossible]

I definitely understand where you are coming from. I realize that these are all personal opinions, and I've grown to "know" these personalities from reading here and bnbb. thanks Bev!

[Larry Kart]

...but I have been thinking about this thread these past few days.

Then it's done its job.

But I'd recommend looking beyond this particular locker room for other interpretations. The views expressed here on Uchida are by no means widely held. In Clementine's case it's the usual 'bad boy' posturing.

Have a look at the Penguin guide (watch out for incoming!) for a viewpoint that also expresses reservations about the Uchida ('none of the performances of the major works here would be a first choice') but without the hyperbole that seems to be de rigueur here.

FWIW, on the chief Internet classical music discussion group I know -- rec.music.classical.recordings -- Uchida's work in Mozart and everything else is generally frowned upon to say the least. I know, another locker room, but those views are widely held there. In general, she's slagged for "prettifying" and/or miniaturizing the music she plays, but if you're curious, go to that group, plug in Uchida, and be prepared for hyperbole.

[mracz]

I tend not to go for complete sets in this kind of repertoire. Can't think how else to organise, so here's by nationality

French:

Casadesus with Szell/Cleveland: He did 20-27 (but not 25 for some reason) and a few others; should be easy to get on LP, although if you go for CDs there's a new Sony bargain box-set of the lot on 5 CDs, very cheap. Serious music-making and the orchestra was probably America's finest at the time (60s).

Romanians:

Clara Haskil: she recorded half a dozen some more than once. Andromeda has some bargain box sets of her both studio and live. Her violin sonatas with Grumiaux also special.

Lipatti 21 with Karajan. Wonderful like everything he did. Also check out the A minor Sonata

Hungarian:

Annie Fischer 21 and 22 (should be easy to find a second hand LP)

Polish:

Landowska 22: live recording from the late 30s (on piano) listen to the ornamentation and the rhythmic vitality in the 3rd movement (she's in the pocket!)

British:

Clifford Curzon: particularly the discs with Britten or Kertesz conducting. As good as it gets.

Italian:

Michelangeli: No 15 the EMI recording from the late 40s-early 50s. Fabulous chops (this is a really technically demanding one. Mozart said he wrote it "to make pianists sweat" and it still has that effect on most of us.)

Russian:

Horowitz's late recording of 23 with Giulini. I know it sounds really unlikely but give it a listen.

IMHO these are all essential and have given me great pleasure over many years. And I've probably left off some really obvious ones...

I share reservations (ahem!) with many board members about Uchida/Tate, but heard her do 20 in London a few months ago and agree or disagree with her approach it was an amazing and musicianly performance. Full of both fire and lyricism and a wonderful palette of sound and colour. And of course, live in the concert hall is always a different experience (Brendel could be amazing live when the spirit moved him).

[A Lark Ascending]

And yet...

BBC Radio 3s Building a Library:

Mozart: Piano Concerto No.9 in E Flat Major ‘Jeunehomme’ K271 Jeremy Siepmann

28th January 2006

First Choice:

Mitsuko Uchida (piano), English Chamber Orchestra, Jeffrey Tate (conductor)

(Recorded 1990; from CD entitled ‘The Great Piano Concertos Volume 3’; c/w Piano Concerto No.14 in E flat, K449; Piano Concerto No.15 in B flat, K450; Piano Concerto No.17 in G K453; Rondo in D K382; Piano Concerto No.18 in B flat K456)

PHILIPS 473 3132 (2-CD, mid-price) (‘Duo’ Series)

Budget-Price Choice:

Jeno Jando (piano), Concentus Hungaricus, Andras Ligeti (conductor)

(Recorded 1989; c/w Concerto No.27 in B flat K595)

NAXOS 8.550203 (CD, budget)

Historic Choice:

Myra Hess (piano), Perpignan Festival Orchestra, Pablo Casals (conductor) (Recorded 1951; c/w Piano Concerto No.22 in E flat K482*; Piano Concerto No.14 in E flat K449+; Piano Concerto No.27 in B flat K595**; Serenade in G K525 (Eine kleine Nachtmusik)

Rudolf Serkin (piano)*, Eugene Istomin (piano)+, Mieczyslaw Horszowski (piano)**

PEARL GEMS0167 (2-CD, mid-price)

Also Recommended:

Vladimir Ashkenazy (piano/director), Philharmonia Orchestra

(Recorded 1984; c/w The Complete Piano Concertos)

LONDON 443 727-2 (10-CD, budget)

Source: The link on the far right here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tmtz

Not presenting that as a definitive pecking order - just an illustration of of how interpretations can differ.

Other more recent BAL programmes have recommended Brendel (22) and Pires (17).

But what would a 'limey' programme know?

In the end this all rapidly degenerates into angels dancing on heads of pins territory.

Edited June 2, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[MomsMobley]

Please. And that's why Jeffrey Tate has such a 'terrific' reputation for... anything but dully competent time beating?

Please. And that's why Uchida's discography is a testament to misplaced diffidence? I.e. she so desperately wants to be "Viennese" she's afraid to do anything that might even slightly arouse or inflame the meat of an Englishman (thinking of magazine editors and writers here, not O posters).

You're alread handicapped with a modern orchestra + instrument, to not even ** use ** 'em for all they got is twice dumb.

Stryker 1-9, I will grant early Barenboim is at least brusque and peppy, which is sure better than precious but I don't hear much more there. DB's best work is romantic era conductor.

I forgot Richter--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84okP0MdpCc

I forgot Michelangeli--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ikrny0Bllk

also, Anthony Newman on Harmony (blow me Charles Rosen)--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfFYUac14Kg

[A Lark Ascending]

See those angels dancing!

[T.D.]

Glad to see Haskil mentioned.

I'm not interested in going the "complete" route (too much other unheard classical to explore...). Have recordings of a few PCs with Casadesus(/Szell) and Michelangeli. Thinking of filling in some gaps with either Haskil (couple of recent boxes) or more Casadesus. Leaning toward Haskil at this point due to other material (esp. with Grumiaux - I have only one of their Philips Mozart discs, which is truly awesome) in the boxes.

Would appreciate being warned off any horrendous blunders [Disclosure: I like Brendel's playing and have several of his solo Mozart recordings, but don't want to concentrate on any one pianist here].

[Larry Kart]

FWIW, a list of "great performances" of the Mozart PC from the reigning (albeit at times eccentric) rec.music.classical.recordings piano maven Dan Koren:

#9 KV271 Gilels, Richter

#10 KV365 Gilels/Gilels, Casadesus/Casadesus

#13 KV415 Michelangeli

#15 KV450 Michelangeli, Richter

#17 KV453 Bashkirov, Edwin Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#20 KV466 Michelangeli, Richter, Schnabel, Rubinstein

#21 KV467 Gilels, Lipatti, Casadesus

#22 KV482 Richter, Casadesus

#23 KV488 Horowitz, Rubinstein, Casadesus

#24 KV491 Bashkirov, Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#25 KV503 Edwin Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#26 KV537 Casadesus

#27 KV595 Gilels, Richter, Schnabel, Casadesus

Don't always agree with Koren myself on these or any of his enthusiasms or execrations, though I usually find his enthusiasms to be quite reliable, more so than his put downs.

[paul secor]

And yet...

BBC Radio 3s Building a Library:

Mozart: Piano Concerto No.9 in E Flat Major ‘Jeunehomme’ K271 Jeremy Siepmann

28th January 2006

First Choice:

Mitsuko Uchida (piano), English Chamber Orchestra, Jeffrey Tate (conductor)

(Recorded 1990; from CD entitled ‘The Great Piano Concertos Volume 3’; c/w Piano Concerto No.14 in E flat, K449; Piano Concerto No.15 in B flat, K450; Piano Concerto No.17 in G K453; Rondo in D K382; Piano Concerto No.18 in B flat K456)

PHILIPS 473 3132 (2-CD, mid-price) (‘Duo’ Series)

Budget-Price Choice:

Jeno Jando (piano), Concentus Hungaricus, Andras Ligeti (conductor)

(Recorded 1989; c/w Concerto No.27 in B flat K595)

NAXOS 8.550203 (CD, budget)

Historic Choice:

Myra Hess (piano), Perpignan Festival Orchestra, Pablo Casals (conductor) (Recorded 1951; c/w Piano Concerto No.22 in E flat K482*; Piano Concerto No.14 in E flat K449+; Piano Concerto No.27 in B flat K595**; Serenade in G K525 (Eine kleine Nachtmusik)

Rudolf Serkin (piano)*, Eugene Istomin (piano)+, Mieczyslaw Horszowski (piano)**

PEARL GEMS0167 (2-CD, mid-price)

Also Recommended:

Vladimir Ashkenazy (piano/director), Philharmonia Orchestra

(Recorded 1984; c/w The Complete Piano Concertos)

LONDON 443 727-2 (10-CD, budget)

Source: The link on the far right here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tmtz

Not presenting that as a definitive pecking order - just an illustration of of how interpretations can differ.

Other more recent BAL programmes have recommended Brendel (22) and Pires (17).

But what would a 'limey' programme know?

In the end this all rapidly degenerates into angels dancing on heads of pins territory.

Don't know about angels, but I find this kind of discussion useful. As an inexperienced clasical listener, I tend to look for comments and recommendations from posters whose tastes - even in other genres of music - tend to be similar to mine and then do my own listening. Eventually, my tastes and listening experiences will be my own, just as has occurred with other musics.

[Peter Johnson]

See those angels dancing!

One man's angel is another man's nuance. Dude, I've spent years listening to and studying these concerti and am always grateful for alternate points of view. Why denigrate them? If you don't want the alternate point of view, ignore it!

[A Lark Ascending]

...and am always grateful for alternate points of view. Why denigrate them?

I find it strange that denigrating performers who are clearly at the top of the tree (whatever your feelings about their particular interpretation) is seen as perfectly acceptable by those who want to cosy up to the 'Great Minds' of this board.

Question the Great Minds themselves and the acolytes come pouring in. How dare you express a contrary interpretation to our heroes?

I'm all for wide open discussion, but rendered with some degree of humility, a very clear awareness that all we do is express things from our own restricted perspective.

It's the Olympian 'I'm bring the truth down from Arafat' line that I won't buy (apologies for the Classical/Biblical clash!).

Sorry if that does not fit with the requirement to ooze sycophancy towards the Great Minds.

Edited June 2, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[J.A.W.]

Glad to see Haskil mentioned.

I'm not interested in going the "complete" route (too much other unheard classical to explore...). Have recordings of a few PCs with Casadesus(/Szell) and Michelangeli. Thinking of filling in some gaps with either Haskil (couple of recent boxes) or more Casadesus. Leaning toward Haskil at this point due to other material (esp. with Grumiaux - I have only one of their Philips Mozart discs, which is truly awesome) in the boxes.

Would appreciate being warned off any horrendous blunders [Disclosure: I like Brendel's playing and have several of his solo Mozart recordings, but don't want to concentrate on any one pianist here].

Clara Haskil is one of my favourite pianists from a past era, but you'd better be careful and picky when you're considering her piano concerto recordings; on some of them she was accompanied by - to my ears - truly horrendous orchestras, which spoil the whole thing for me.

[J.A.W.]

...and am always grateful for alternate points of view. Why denigrate them?

I find it strange that denigrating performers who are clearly at the top of the tree (whatever your feelings about their particular interpretation) is seen as perfectly acceptable by those who want to cosy up to the 'Great Minds' of this board.

Question the Great Minds themselves and the acolytes come pouring in. How dare you express a contrary interpretation to our heroes?

I'm all for wide open discussion, but rendered with some degree of humility, a very clear awareness that all we do is express things from our own restricted perspective.

It's the Olympian 'I'm bring the truth down from Arafat' line that I won't buy (apologies for the Classical/Biblical clash!).

Sorry if that does not fit with the requirement to ooze sycophancy towards the Great Minds.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't give a **** what those "Great Minds" think about performances and interpretations I love or hate or am indifferent about. I'm only interested in what some people here whose opinions I trust (not necessarily the "Great Minds") think about recordings I haven't heard (yet).

Edited June 2, 2011 by J.A.W.

[.:.impossible]

This great minds thing seems to be a recurring topic with Bev. Can we all just agree that Bev is also a great mind and then continue typing into a prompt?

No offense Bev. I just recall reading this line of thought from you a time or two. What gives?

[Chuck Nessa]

[A Lark Ascending]

Can we all just agree that Bev is also a great mind...

Now I really am offended!

[Hot Ptah]

Can we all just agree that Bev is also a great mind...

Now I really am offended!

Would you feel better if I think of you as "a seemingly above average, if not obviously great, mind"?

[.:.impossible]

[mracz]

Forgot about Hess in the Jeunehomme with Casals, and the Rubinstein 23 (another unlikely but wonderful recording. Charles Rosen once said he thought it was Rubinstein's best concerto recording, which is a slightly eccentric view, but I know what he means). Kempff also good in 23. Yes, caveat emptor over the orchestras in some of the Haskil concerto recordings, but I've gotten used to ignoring them. My memory is that the DGs with Fricsay are very good. There's a good double CD on Doremi of Richter/Mozart live recordings with Barshai which I can also recommend.

[Mark Stryker]

FWIW, a list of "great performances" of the Mozart PC from the reigning (albeit at times eccentric) rec.music.classical.recordings piano maven Dan Koren:

#9 KV271 Gilels, Richter

#10 KV365 Gilels/Gilels, Casadesus/Casadesus

#13 KV415 Michelangeli

#15 KV450 Michelangeli, Richter

#17 KV453 Bashkirov, Edwin Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#20 KV466 Michelangeli, Richter, Schnabel, Rubinstein

#21 KV467 Gilels, Lipatti, Casadesus

#22 KV482 Richter, Casadesus

#23 KV488 Horowitz, Rubinstein, Casadesus

#24 KV491 Bashkirov, Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#25 KV503 Edwin Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#26 KV537 Casadesus

#27 KV595 Gilels, Richter, Schnabel, Casadesus

Don't always agree with Koren myself on these or any of his enthusiasms or execrations, though I usually find his enthusiasms to be quite reliable, more so than his put downs.

A few observations prompted by Koren's list, and in a way I'm thinking about more than just Mozart and the piano concertos. I know many of these performances to be very fine, but I am struck by the fact that nearly all are 40 to 50 years old or more. (I guess the Horowitz is from the mid 80s, and I'm not sure if he's referencing early or late Michelangeli, but we're still talking about one of the Great Men of history.) Maybe Mozart interpretation really did peak at mid century; certainly many of these are timeless recordings. But I also wonder if this list reflects the manifestation of a certain record-collector syndrome, namely that older is better, that only a few masters have a line on Truth and that the first records we really learned, those that made us fall in love with particular pieces in the first place, or those that we acquired when we were coming into our own maturity as listeners, remain unimpeachable -- especially compared to the "drivel" being released today.

I know the syndrome because I have to fight it, as I suspect many of us do. There but for the grace of God and all that. I know from my own listening how tempting it can be to dismiss recordings because they differ from the sound in my head that was shaped by the records that first captured my imagination when I was working in a classical record store 25 years ago and methodically learning the standard repertoire. For me personally it's become incredibly important to be an active concertgoer -- I'm blessed that it's my job -- because I like to think it keeps my ears open to alternative interpretations, contemporary performers and a sense of the art as a still-evolving organism. It can be seductive and perhaps dangerous to retreat so deep into your record collection that you forget to come up for air.

In that spirit, I would recommend recent recordings of various Mozart concertos by the Norwegian painist Leif Ove Andsnes (9/18; 17/20, EMI); and the Polish-born Piotr Anderszewski (21/24, Virgin). Both have the drama and intensity I require but honor the lyricism too; Andsness is more electric; Anderszewski is smoother but doesn't preen. But have lots of imagination and both conduct from the keyboard.

I recently picked up Pierre-Laurent Aimard's recording of 6, 16 and 27 with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Warner) but have only listened once so I haven't fully absorbed it, but I was struck by the scrubbed clarity of articulation and sound and the rhythmic zest. Aimard is remarkable in contemporary rep (Boulez, Carter, Messiaen, Ligeti), which has had a strong impact on how he approaches older music. On the other hand, it also sounded a little icy and less variegated than I wanted. I need to spend more time with it before I make up my mind.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Mark Stryker

[A Lark Ascending]

But I also wonder if this list reflects the manifestation of a certain record-collector syndrome, namely that older is better, that only a few masters have a line on Truth and that the first records we really learned, those that made us fall in love with particular pieces in the first place, or those that we acquired when we were coming into our own maturity as listeners, remain unimpeachable -- especially compared to the "drivel" being released today.

I think that is very true. My view of how Sibelius should sound has never got beyond Anthony Collins; or Mahler beyond Kubelik. Which is clearly nonsense because there have been scores of interpretations both before and since those. But in matters of timing in particular, I've got a mental imprint from those first heard recordings I find it hard to get past.

[Larry Kart]

FWIW, a list of "great performances" of the Mozart PC from the reigning (albeit at times eccentric) rec.music.classical.recordings piano maven Dan Koren:

#9 KV271 Gilels, Richter

#10 KV365 Gilels/Gilels, Casadesus/Casadesus

#13 KV415 Michelangeli

#15 KV450 Michelangeli, Richter

#17 KV453 Bashkirov, Edwin Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#20 KV466 Michelangeli, Richter, Schnabel, Rubinstein

#21 KV467 Gilels, Lipatti, Casadesus

#22 KV482 Richter, Casadesus

#23 KV488 Horowitz, Rubinstein, Casadesus

#24 KV491 Bashkirov, Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#25 KV503 Edwin Fischer, Richter, Casadesus

#26 KV537 Casadesus

#27 KV595 Gilels, Richter, Schnabel, Casadesus

Don't always agree with Koren myself on these or any of his enthusiasms or execrations, though I usually find his enthusiasms to be quite reliable, more so than his put downs.

A few observations prompted by Koren's list, and in a way I'm thinking about more than just Mozart and the piano concertos. I know many of these performances to be very fine, but I am struck by the fact that nearly all are 40 to 50 years old or more. (I guess the Horowitz is from the mid 80s, and I'm not sure if he's referencing early or late Michelangeli, but we're still talking about one of the Great Men of history.) Maybe Mozart interpretation really did peak at mid century; certainly many of these are timeless recordings. But I also wonder if this list reflects the manifestation of a certain record-collector syndrome, namely that older is better, that only a few masters have a line on Truth and that the first records we really learned, those that made us fall in love with particular pieces in the first place, or those that we acquired when we were coming into our own maturity as listeners, remain unimpeachable -- especially compared to the "drivel" being released today.

I know the syndrome because I have to fight it, as I suspect many of us do. There but for the grace of God and all that. I know from my own listening how tempting it can be to dismiss recordings because they differ from the sound in my head that was shaped by the records that first captured my imagination when I was working in a classical record store 25 years ago and methodically learning the standard repertoire. For me personally it's become incredibly important to be an active concertgoer -- I'm blessed that it's my job -- because I like to think it keeps my ears open to alternative interpretations, contemporary performers and a sense of the art as a still-evolving organism. It can be seductive and perhaps dangerous to retreat so deep into your record collection that you forget to come up for air.

In that spirit, I would recommend recent recordings of various Mozart concertos by the Norwegian painist Leif Ove Andsnes (9/18; 17/20, EMI); and the Polish-born Piotr Anderszewski (21/24, Virgin). Both have the drama and intensity I require but honor the lyricism too; Andsness is more electric; Anderszewski is smoother but doesn't preen. But have lots of imagination and both conduct from the keyboard.

I recently picked up Pierre-Laurent Aimard's recording of 6, 16 and 27 with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Warner) but have only listened once so I haven't fully absorbed it, but I was struck by the scrubbed clarity of articulation and sound and the rhythmic zest. Aimard is remarkable in contemporary rep (Boulez, Carter, Messiaen, Ligeti), which has had a strong impact on how he approaches older music. On the other hand, it also sounded a little icy and less variegated than I wanted. I need to spend more time with it before I make up my mind.

You're right about Koren apparently being something of "lost golden age" customer, but that's only or mostly apparently. IIRC, he was very enthusiastic about several of Helene Grimaud's early recordings (in his opinion, and mine too, albeit mine is based on more limited experience, things have gone awry for Grimaud over the years, but in her teens she often was astonishing), and he did nip ups about the first two (and only two, I believe, sad to say) recordings by Naida Cole, which are superb. Cole, it seems, has more or less retired from concertizing to pursue a career in medicine. At least, unlike Grimaud, she isn't dancing with wolves.

I'll try to check out those Andsnes and Anderszewski recordings.