Concord on the future of OJCs

[GA Russell]

Doug Ramsey on his Rifftides blog today has a quote from Concord Records in response to a reader's question about the possible deletion of the OJC catalogue. Here's what Ramsey says:

I passed along Mr. Quick's question to Nick Phillips of Concord Records, since Concord's purchase of Fantasy Inc. the owner of the OJC (Original Jazz Classics) archive. I asked him about the closing of the company's Berkeley, California, warehouse where much of the OJC stock was stored. Here is his reply:

While it is true that the Berkley warehouse is closed, that doesn't mean we're embarking on any kind of wholesale deletion campaign. That warehouse facility is closed because we've consolidated our warehousing operations to one facility, in Cleveland (where our Telarc operations are based).

We are not planning to "delete the OJC catalog."

That said, as the consumer trends in acquiring music continues to shift toward downloads (much in the same way that there was a shift from LP to CD) there may be, however, instances of titles that simply are not selling any more on CD that we will not reprint in that format; but they will continue to be available via digital download (via i-tunes, emusic.com, etc.).

Finally, there are also many examples of titles where we've taken the OJC CD version of a classic album off of the market, when we reissue a new version of the same title (such as our RVG Remasters series, and our new Keepnews Collection series).

[Guest donald petersen]

if they can get itunes/emusic up to exact duplicate quality (which isn't hard if any schmuck who uses demonoid for instance, can do it....then ok. and some reasonable artwork...

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

what a crock

[felser]

That said, as the consumer trends in acquiring music continues to shift toward downloads (much in the same way that there was a shift from LP to CD) there may be, however, instances of titles that simply are not selling any more on CD that we will not reprint in that format; but they will continue to be available via digital download (via i-tunes, emusic.com, etc.).

I agree with Chewy

1 - Kids buy downloads for their Ipods. Adult jazz fans buy CD's. This (switching the jazz to downloads) is a case of industry push, not consumer pull, driving the format change for jazz. How many of you really WANT the music delivered to you in downloads instead of CD's, rather than just tolerating it? We wanted CD's because the benefits were obvious. Benefits of downloads are zero, as you can burn from your own CD's if they deliver the music in CD's.

2 - The REAL industry trend is that people are buying less, period. Understandable considering the dearth of meaningful new pop music and drying up of the reissue market.

[JSngry]

If quality downloadable music comes with quality downloadable artwork/liner notes/etc at an adjusted downloadable price that reflects the savings of the company gets from not having to physically replicate any of it, then I for one would be more than just tolerant of it.

Hey - why pay $12.99 & up for something you could/should be able to download for 75% or less of that? You still get a CD out of the deal, and if you got a good printer and some good paper, original cover art at the very least. Shortest distance between two points and all that.

Besides, a CD reissue of an LP in't an "original" anything. It's a copy of the orignal in a new format. Quality downloads (and that's still a big ? for me) are just another format to deliver that copy, and they should cost less (another big ? for me). For new issues, I'd think/hope that bands/labels would come up with innovative downloadable packages, just as they have/haven't with hardcopy packaging. Make it fun.

It's not really anything but a change in delivery. If you want the old-style packaging, you should still be able to download it and assemble it yourself. Pain in the butt, sure, but the price should reflect that. And if all that packaging isn't that big of a deal after 6-7000 CDs, hey, less clutter. Win-Win.

Anyway, jewel boxes suck.

[jazzbo]

1 - Kids buy downloads for their Ipods. Adult jazz fans buy CD's.

Some adult jazz fans buy only cds. Some download as well, and not just for iPods. Nothing is that absolute.

Edited April 15, 2007 by jazzbo

[jmjk]

perhaps a timely FYI FWIW--

I suspected the Concord buy-out would cause a lot of disappointment, but I've found Concord to have FANTASTIC service. I placed an order with them not too long ago, and they shipped a wrong disc by mistake. I sent an e-mail to them about it, and the correct disc was in the FedEx truck that day, free of charge. They even told me not to bother sending the incorrect title back to them.

[Matthew]

This might sound crazy, but I feel differently about downloads, as if they're not real, cheap, disposable, no quality to them. It's a feeling I can't shake. I prefer something solid in my hands.

[jazzbo]

You know, it's pretty easy to turn many of them into something solid and circular in your hands to pop into your player. (I admit that I have trouble with and have not learned to burn some forms).

[neveronfriday]

This might sound crazy, but I feel differently about downloads, as if they're not real, cheap, disposable, no quality to them. It's a feeling I can't shake. I prefer something solid in my hands.

I agree. But I think our voices will not be heard any longer (not much longer).

What I've decided to do is to buy into lots of stuff these next few years before the s*** really hits the fan, meaning that stock will be depleted totally and new reissues won't be on the horizon anymore.

I'm at an age where buying into lots of stuff I still want in a format that's going to disappear in the nearer future is a viable alternative. I'll have enough to listen to until I drop dead (I might possibly have that already) and the rest of the world can worry about storing several thousand Cds in digital format without losing any ... for all of those unable to afford a high-quality redundant RAID system, that's going to be difficult.

But, as I've stated elsewhere, most people I know don't really care at all. If everything crashes, they'll just buy something else ... music as commodity and all of that.

Hell, one day I'll buy myself one of those $3000 CD players that weighs half a ton, has excellent support and is fixable until I turn 90 ... to hell with everyone else.

You could say that I stepped out of the mainstream - you know, the people who buy into every reissue that states "24 bit remaster" and makes your ears bleed, the ones that don't care which label does what ... the people who are totally complacent about sound quality, reissue policy etc. (meaning: most people) - and I'm just going to stock up and enjoy the music I managed to get in the best quality I can afford.

Actually, you could say I've gotten old.

But that's another story.

[mikeweil]

That said, as the consumer trends in acquiring music continues to shift toward downloads (much in the same way that there was a shift from LP to CD) there may be, however, instances of titles that simply are not selling any more on CD that we will not reprint in that format; but they will continue to be available via digital download (via i-tunes, emusic.com, etc.).

"... the consumer trends ...": They should consider which consumers they are adressing with jazz releases!

If one gets CD quality sound along with high resolution artwork and liners, I'd accept a download. But I's always rather buy a CD. Why don't they go for custom CDs with oop titles, especially as the digitalized files are all available?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Wel, I don't really care what format stuff comes in, so long as I can buy the music I want

cheap as poss.

MG

[Stefan Wood]

The era of buying cds is rapidly coming to a close.......

[J Larsen]

This might sound crazy, but I feel differently about downloads, as if they're not real, cheap, disposable, no quality to them.

I felt that way about cds when they started taking over.

I would welcome downloads on the assumption that they are at least as high-res as cds. Less clutter in the house, less physical junk to feel weighed down by, less worry about what happens if there is a fire, burgalary, etc, and better for the environment. There are greenhouse emissions associated with storing the stuff on servers, but far less than are associated with creating and delivering a physical product. All in all, it's just a better way to go - if it is done right. Currently it is not.

Edited April 15, 2007 by J Larsen

[Claude]

The era of buying cds is rapidly coming to a close.......

I don't think so. Downloads are still far behind CD sales.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The era of buying cds is rapidly coming to a close.......

Not in the Third World - their mass publics are just beginning to be prosperous enough to START buying CDs. And when they get going, there are a hell of a lot more of them than there are of us.

MG

[ghost of miles]

When's the next $2.99 OJC blowout sale? I'm there... have already gotten most of the titles I want, but there's a good 100-200 or so to go. I have little faith that Concord will maintain the catalogue for much longer; there won't be a "Saturday night massacre," IMO, but many, many of the lesser-selling titles (and it's those in which I'm interested) will drop out of inventory each year.

Myth or fact: factory-manufactured CDs have a longer audio life than CD-Rs? Even if they do, I guess it doesn't matter if you store the download on your computer. I'm with Matthew at this point--the whole download, DIY game is one I don't think I'll be playing until I'm forced to. I've downloaded two tracks so far, and both times because they were pieces I needed for a show, and were otherwise unavailable.

[J Larsen]

Myth or fact: factory-manufactured CDs have a longer audio life than CD-Rs?

Fact, but the esitmated lifespan of cdrs properly stored (ie in their cases and not in the sun) is over 100 years, so it is sort of a moot point. Also, there have at times been manufacturing issues with cds that caused unexpectedly short lifespans (chemical reactions between the plastic and recorded layers) - who knows if there are any more such issues waiting to be discovered in our collections in the neext 5, 10 or ?? years. I don't think it is likely, but the possibility can not be ruled out.

[JSngry]

I'm just wondering what the "object" is with a CD that makes some resistant to the notion of downloaded digital music.

It can't be the disc itself, because you can make one of those yourself after the download (assuming that the industry uses a format that makes that possible, which they'd be crazy not to not at least offer that as an option, which means that anything can happen...). Unless you're really into the "label" of a CD, one's just like the other, especially once it's inside the player.

Surely it's not the jewel box itself. Jewel boxes suck. Digipacks are hipper, but less durable, and I've heard plenty of complaint about them here.

It must be the artwork, the booklet & tray card, that constitutes the "object" that one feels is lost by downloading. Ok, I can buy that, even if, once again, for reissues of LPs they're usually a poor substitute for the originals.

So, what if...

You download (presumably in a high-quality format) an OJC for, say, $7.95 (or, hopefully, less), and pay an additional $2.95 to have the booklet & tray card mailed to you. (Adjust the proces of each to whatever might be more "realistic"). Then you can burn your download to a physical CD, assemble the artwork into a jewel box of your choosing, and voila, there's your object.

Good enough? Or is that nifty yellow & black stuff on the CD face what really matters?

[zen archer]

Myth or fact: factory-manufactured CDs have a longer audio life than CD-Rs?

Fact, but the esitmated lifespan of cdrs properly stored (ie in their cases and not in the sun) is over 100 years, so it is sort of a moot point. Also, there have at times been manufacturing issues with cds that caused unexpectedly short lifespans (chemical reactions between the plastic and recorded layers) - who knows if there are any more such issues waiting to be discovered in our collections in the neext 5, 10 or ?? years. I don't think it is likely, but the possibility can not be ruled out.

I have had more than a few cdrs where they started to skip and the info wasnt holding up .

so i also think it's the brand of cd-r you burn to some are better than others.

[zen archer]

I'm just wondering what the "object" is with a CD that makes some resistant to the notion of downloaded digital music.

It can't be the disc itself, because you can make one of those yourself after the download (assuming that the industry uses a format that makes that possible, which they'd be crazy not to not at least offer that as an option, which means that anything can happen...). Unless you're really into the "label" of a CD, one's just like the other, especially once it's inside the player.

Surely it's not the jewel box itself. Jewel boxes suck. Digipacks are hipper, but less durable, and I've heard plenty of complaint about them here.

It must be the artwork, the booklet & tray card, that constitutes the "object" that one feels is lost by downloading. Ok, I can buy that, even if, once again, for reissues of LPs they're usually a poor substitute for the originals.

So, what if...

You download (presumably in a high-quality format) an OJC for, say, $7.95 (or, hopefully, less), and pay an additional $2.95 to have the booklet & tray card mailed to you. (Adjust the proces of each to whatever might be more "realistic"). Then you can burn your download to a physical CD, assemble the artwork into a jewel box of your choosing, and voila, there's your object.

Good enough? Or is that nifty yellow & black stuff on the CD face what really matters?

Well right now I'am buying OJCs for $3.99 - 5.99 sometimes $7.99 a disc i'd rather just stick to that it seems

to me a download for $7.95 is more troublesome. especially if i can still score these at these prices.

[Claude]

I've had dozens of brand CD-Rs (Fuji) which were properly stored but became unreadable after just 3 years. I don't believe that any cheap CD-Rs on the market can offer very long lifespans (20 years and more).

So don't keep important and rare recordings on one CD-R only. I make backups in lossless compressed formats on DVD-R (a dozen or more CDs on one disc).

[J Larsen]

I've had dozens of brand CD-Rs (Fuji) which were properly stored but became unreadable after just 3 years. I don't believe that any cheap CD-Rs on the market can offer very long lifespans (20 years and more).

So don't keep important and rare recordings on one CD-R only. I make backups in lossless compressed formats on DVD-R (a dozen or more CDs on one disc).

Fuji's cd-rs had short lifespans up until a few years ago because the dye they were using lost its reflectivity quickly. That problem is supposed to have been resolved (I know this from industry contacts, not from experience - I used to know a lot of people who worked in the physics and chemistry side of data storage).

[JSngry]

Well right now I'am buying OJCs for $3.99 - 5.99 sometimes $7.99 a disc i'd rather just stick to that it seems

to me a download for $7.95 is more troublesome. especially if i can still score these at these prices.

Hell, they might even make $3.99-$5.99 the download price. Who knows?

But the point is that eventually you're not going to be able to buy all these CDs in hardcopy form, at least not readily. Concord won't keep low(est?) selling titles in print indefinitely, nor should they be expected to. All that "product" takes up realtime time/space & entails manufacturing expenses that downloads don't.

What I really want to know is simply what is this "object" that is so prized, and (as a corollary) is it possible that some people are having "object fixation" about CDs the way that I and a lot of others did about vinyl?

When you come right down to it, a CD is a CD is a CD is a CD is a CD is a CD is a CD is a CD is a CD, etc. You can make an infinite number of perfect copies of them and once they're inside the player, the "original" sounds just like a 250,000th generation burn. That's different from the analog days, when a taped copy of an LP could at best almost sound like the original.

So what's this "object" business about CDs? It's gotta be either the packaging or some form of "object fixation", becuase it sure ain't that a downloaded CD is going to have to sound inferior to a storebought one. And if it's the packaging, wellsir, I got me a fair amount of old LPs, and a fair amount of CDs, and I've yet to see (as opposed to hear) a CD reissue of an LP that makes me want to get rid of the LP version.

All I'm saying is, objectively, digital is digital, and that in the end, you can theoretically get the identical music in identical format via download as you do through storebought. And if the owners of the product find it more sensible to store it all on a server or three so you can get what you want when you want it instead of fighting a losing battle against space & the economics thereof, I just don't see what the fuss is about. It's a good way to keep the music (as opposed to the packaging, which I'm sure can still be made available in some form) available in a format that already exists. All that's changing is the method of delivery.

[ghost of miles]

(1) Looks like CD-Rs are still not a safe bet (though this may well change).

(2) I doubt that downloads will cost $7.95 and $2.95 for the artwork. Once the industry has gotten folks used to buying this way, I think you'll see $9.99 or more for the download, $5 for the artwork and booklet (and I'm not one to disparage what's been done with CD booklets in the past few years--I have a # of them that have far more extensive notes than many old LPs). Basically, you'll end up paying about the same, or more, for the album + booklet... except that you'll be assembling it yourself. And quite probably printing out a PDF file for the booklet, rather than getting one nicely made in the mail. Now, God knows I'm inclined to be a lazy SOB, but frankly, I don't want to pay $15 for what will inevitably be, to some extent, a crude homemade product... or spending a great deal of time making it look like a professional reissue.

(3) We haven't really addressed the audio side of things much, but Clem has made good points elsewhere about what the industry could be offering, as opposed to what it is.

The music matters more than anything else, and I (like many others here) have a large number of OOP things on CD-R, often with Xeroxed liner notes, color reproductions of the covers, etc. I'm just not willing to shell out 15 bucks to the Music Man for a similar product at this point. As he's always done, he'll inevitably force us to play this way (remember the "no-returns" policy on vinyl in the late 1980s?).. but until then I'm not going to bargain.