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The Bad Plus


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Wow. 

I've followed TBP for a long time. I was initially sceptical of what i percieved as a 'lets market jazz to non-jazz fans by making it cool and edgy with tattoos and Nirvanas in 2005' thing, but Ethan's blog piqued my interest and made me actually listen. 

I won't go on about it but i think they are a great group. I don't want to diminish Iverson's role by any stretch but Anderson's compositions have always been the highlight for me, followed by King's. Iverson has increasingly felt like an odd fit; their latest, It's Hard, is the first album of theirs that i've taken a pass on, having almost always pre-ordered/bought immediately on release. Quite excited for Orrin Evans to bring something fresh.

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On 4/10/2017 at 7:30 AM, bluesoul said:

"The Bad Plus  announced via its Facebook page this morning that founding member Ethan Iverson will be leaving the group at the end of this year, to be replaced by pianist Orrin Evans."

More in Nate Chinen's article. 

The article on WBGO was a weird read.  I guess it's a measure of how popular these guys got (by jazz standards) that anybody bothered to ask the band members how they felt about each other.

FWIW, since it wasn't discussed here... I like Iverson's playing and interviews, and he generally seems like a wonderful guy, but his behavior during the Glasper incident was not his finest hour. :(

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I was very pleasantly surprised to see this board avoid the Glasper quagmire--it was embarrassing for everyone involved, and the only positive to come of it was an earnest discussion about the visibility of women in jazz. Glasper said some dumb stuff that he probably didn't and/or doesn't care to reflect too much on, and Iverson may have gotten a little too entrenched in his attempt to refrain from editorializing the interview. It looked for a moment like Iverson was making excuses for Glasper--and maybe he was, to a degree--but it just exploded out of hand. 

The fact that the tenor of the discussion shifted quickly from analytical discussion into the realm of hysterical remonstration and hamfisted non-apology says a lot about the ludicrous state of dialogue that has consumed so much of jazz culture as of late. Glasper was never going to care--and will never care--about this dialogue as much as his critics did and do. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't call bullshit on it, only that (maybe) our passions and intellectual resources would have been better spent doing any number of things--like, for example, investing some bandwidth in conducting the interviews with female musicians that Iverson is for some reason failing to book, or maybe promoting the scores of female led or female inclusive projects that seem to get buried under perpetual coverage of Glapser and the Bad Plus. A few people got it right: "Deeds, not words."

On the other hand, I'll never understand the factional warfare that surrounds the Bad Plus--even a cursory listen to their recordings will convey the fact that the music has a degree of ambition and technical sophistication that is closer in character to jazz school Young Lionisms or the oversized acoustic jazz of the 70's than it does the Yellowjackets. I dig that the objections are aesthetic, but I just can't see how the music is any more offensive in its space than Ramsey Lewis, Vince Guaraldi, or Brad Mehldau's more treacly moments.

I do, however, understand the objection about how music like this tends to consume the broader conversation in a very black hole-like fashion. In the spirit of the Glasper imbroglio, you could (instead) listen to:

Carla Bley, Myra Melford, Alice Coltrane, Mary Halvorson, Joanne Brackeen, Geri Allen, Renee Rosnes, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Marilyn Crispell, Amina Claudie Myers, Tomeka Reid, Jane Ira Bloom, Lisa Mezzacappa, Ingrid Laubrock, Beth Custer, Zeena Parkins, Ava Mendoza, Mary Lou Williams, Lil Hardin Armstrong, Terri Lyne Carrington, Regina Carter, Susie Ibarra, Joelle Leandre, and so on.

(I think I limited myself to instrumentalists, and I'm sure others can fill in some blanks.)

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One guy says smooth jazz, another guy says Young Lions. I perceive them completely differently. Just goes to show how widely musical perceptions can differ.

I'm sure that you're well aware that we could go on filling in blanks all day but... Nicole Mitchell! She's a giant in my world. 

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50 minutes ago, xybert said:

One guy says smooth jazz, another guy says Young Lions. I perceive them completely differently. Just goes to show how widely musical perceptions can differ.

I'm sure that you're well aware that we could go on filling in blanks all day but... Nicole Mitchell! She's a giant in my world. 

They kinda/sorta form the same function as Smooth Jazz but for a different audience. 

2 hours ago, ep1str0phy said:

I was very pleasantly surprised to see this board avoid the Glasper quagmire--it was embarrassing for everyone involved, and the only positive to come of it was an earnest discussion about the visibility of women in jazz. Glasper said some dumb stuff that he probably didn't and/or doesn't care to reflect too much on, and Iverson may have gotten a little too entrenched in his attempt to refrain from editorializing the interview. It looked for a moment like Iverson was making excuses for Glasper--and maybe he was, to a degree--but it just exploded out of hand. 

The fact that the tenor of the discussion shifted quickly from analytical discussion into the realm of hysterical remonstration and hamfisted non-apology says a lot about the ludicrous state of dialogue that has consumed so much of jazz culture as of late. Glasper was never going to care--and will never care--about this dialogue as much as his critics did and do. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't call bullshit on it, only that (maybe) our passions and intellectual resources would have been better spent doing any number of things--like, for example, investing some bandwidth in conducting the interviews with female musicians that Iverson is for some reason failing to book, or maybe promoting the scores of female led or female inclusive projects that seem to get buried under perpetual coverage of Glapser and the Bad Plus. A few people got it right: "Deeds, not words."

On the other hand, I'll never understand the factional warfare that surrounds the Bad Plus--even a cursory listen to their recordings will convey the fact that the music has a degree of ambition and technical sophistication that is closer in character to jazz school Young Lionisms or the oversized acoustic jazz of the 70's than it does the Yellowjackets. I dig that the objections are aesthetic, but I just can't see how the music is any more offensive in its space than Ramsey Lewis, Vince Guaraldi, or Brad Mehldau's more treacly moments.

I do, however, understand the objection about how music like this tends to consume the broader conversation in a very black hole-like fashion. In the spirit of the Glasper imbroglio, you could (instead) listen to:

Carla Bley, Myra Melford, Alice Coltrane, Mary Halvorson, Joanne Brackeen, Geri Allen, Renee Rosnes, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Marilyn Crispell, Amina Claudie Myers, Tomeka Reid, Jane Ira Bloom, Lisa Mezzacappa, Ingrid Laubrock, Beth Custer, Zeena Parkins, Ava Mendoza, Mary Lou Williams, Lil Hardin Armstrong, Terri Lyne Carrington, Regina Carter, Susie Ibarra, Joelle Leandre, and so on.

(I think I limited myself to instrumentalists, and I'm sure others can fill in some blanks.)

Cindy Blackman should have gone around and paid them a visit :D

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1 hour ago, robertoart said:

They kinda/sorta form the same function as Smooth Jazz but for a different audience. 

Hmmm. What audience though? Are we talking about the generation born after smooth jazz? If yes, i don't know anyone in real life that listens to them. What is the function of smooth jazz? Chill out music, back ground music, music to make love to your old lady by? Most would listen to downbeat instrumental hip hop, electronic music etc for that function. Actually kind of cracks me up picturing anyone listening to a TBP record. I may have a higher tolerance for smooth jazz than most though (i like some Bob James, Joe Farrell, Mike Stern etc).

Edited by xybert
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56 minutes ago, xybert said:

Hmmm. What audience though? I don't know anyone in real life that listens to them. Are we talking about the generation born after smooth jazz? If yes, i don't know anyone in real life that listens to them. What is the function of smooth jazz? Chill out music, back ground music, music to make love to your old lady by? Most would listen to downbeat instrumental hip hop, electronic music etc for that function. Actually kind of cracks me up picturing anyone listening to a TBP record. I may have a higher tolerance for smooth jazz than most though (i like some Bob James, Joe Farrell, Mike Stern etc).

There's a pretty diverse crowd at their Amsterdam concerts. Not just the usual geriatric jazz farts that post at Organissimo, but also people in their twenties, thirties, fourties. Parents bringing some teenagers along.

Edited by erwbol
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1 hour ago, erwbol said:

An audience not completely bereft of good taste?

True. 

58 minutes ago, xybert said:

Hmmm. What audience though? I don't know anyone in real life that listens to them. Are we talking about the generation born after smooth jazz? If yes, i don't know anyone in real life that listens to them. What is the function of smooth jazz? Chill out music, back ground music, music to make love to your old lady by? Most would listen to downbeat instrumental hip hop, electronic music etc for that function. Actually kind of cracks me up picturing anyone listening to a TBP record. I may have a higher tolerance for smooth jazz than most though (i like some Bob James, Joe Farrell, Mike Stern etc).

I guess I picture an audience that probably also listens to The Necks. Not that there's anything wrong with that Necks lovers!! 

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1 hour ago, erwbol said:

 Not just the usual geriatric jazz farts that post at Organissimo, 

I resemble that remark. 

56 minutes ago, xybert said:

Argh, now The Necks i can't stand! ?

 The Necks used to play annual sell out gigs at my local Rock venue in Melbourne every New Years eve. :) Not a small venue either. I guess they're also bit old hat now these days...

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It bears some notice that every time I run into a group of <30 year old jazz musicians, they invariably know who the Bad Plus is. I admit that my sample size may not be large enough, of course, but it's always "yes" to the Bad Plus, Glasper, Badbadnotgood, Kneebody, and a handful of other bands in that age/peer group--and "no" to ranking critical fare like Vijay Iyer, Roscoe Mitchell, or Myra Melford. Every time. Bill Frisell gets an "oh yeah, I know who that is" if you're lucky.

That's absolutely not a knock on either that sub 30 age group or any of the musicians identified here, only a stray observation that, whether we like it or not, people like the Bad Plus are shaping the perceptions of the next wave(s) of young jazz musicians in a very direct fashion. On a personal creative level, I think that it's all neither here nor there--practical knowledge of Julius Hemphill's music was always going to be a fringe thing regardless of era--but it has made me sit up and pay attention to a lot of this populist, kind-of trendy jazz that prevails now. 

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What was interesting to me was how Iverson and Glasper reacted to claims that the Glasper interview demonstrated that they were both sexists.  It seemed to me that Iverson cared too much about what people said about him on social media.  Iverson's initial defense and serial apologies made him appear weak and insecure.  He reacted as if he felt that what people who did not know him personally wrote about him on social media defined his character.  Moreover, it appeared that he felt that he had to prove at all costs that he was not a sexist to every person who wrote on social media that he was a sexist.  That was a recipe for failure.

Glasper, who actually said the things in the interview that people found objectionable, did not apologize.  In my opinion, there was no need for him to apologize.  His comments were taken out of context by the self-righteous social media "snipers" for the purpose of feeding their insatiable hunger to be outraged at something all of the time. 

I also did not dig Vijay Iyer piling on Iverson when he was down.  How many women instrumentalists has Iyer featured on his recordings?  There is indeed still much work to be done with respect to inclusivity in jazz, but I think making an example out of Iverson was grossly unfair. 

I have seen TBP live many times and enjoy the dynamic between the musicians in a live setting.  I am not a fan of Orrin Evans at all and have never warmed to his playing.  It will be interesting to see how the band sounds with Orrin as a member.

Edited by sonnyhill
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I'm glad to hear that Roscoe is "ranking critical fare" now, but if that impedes him from reaching young players, that's too bad.

I guess they'll get to him soon enough? Or not? Depends on what lines you follow and for how long you follow them.

As far as Glasper's "musical clitoris" goes, the way he says it, it's like he's saying that his music is a female body part ("clitoris" still being a noun, not a verb), which is not what I think he's meaning to say, but say it he did anyway. It's not even slang, it should aspire to be slang, actually, but it's not slang, there's nothing in that usage to get that traction going, not even, it's just a linguistical fuckup. No self-respecting Musical Mack Man (real or imaginary) would claim that their music is a clitoris, that's just backassward, it's not hip at all, it's just...lightweight.

All the more reason to end up with Roscoe, I say. Take heed young peoples. Neither a clit nor a dick be, to thine own self be destiny. Make better records and use better slang, is that too much to ask of any generation?

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1 hour ago, sonnyhill said:

I also did not dig Vijay Iyer piling on Iverson when he was down.  How many women instrumentalists has Iyer featured on his recordings?  There is indeed still much work to be done with respect to inclusivity in jazz, but I think making an example out of Iverson was grossly unfair. 

This is kind of worth some discussion, but not just here--it demands a degree of scrutiny from the actual performing music community in New York and elsewhere. I stayed very, very far away from this part of the issue when the debate was at its most raging, because heated accusations and developing meaningful, dialogic relationships with other musicians do not mix. 

The sad, practical reality of personal comportment in professional jazz music is often just that--kind of whack, sanctimonious, and unreflective. There's a bunch of stuff about glass houses and looking like a fool that--and I'll only speak for myself here--I'm not interested in participating in. I hope that others, many more esteemed than I, can operate on the same frequency. 

There as a useful point that Iverson has classically only real been interested in documenting and discussing a particular locus of jazz performance, and so nurturing some sort of panoptic scholarship isn't really his responsibility. On the other hand, Iverson has developed a critical voice in this music that in some way outsizes his instrumental contributions, so a degree of self-awareness would be kind of neat.

I saw some very well-respected musicians (people for whom I harbor deep personal respect) piling on Iverson in some pretty unfair ways. I heard the accusation that he never recorded with a female musician, which is patently untrue:

 

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