Jim Alfredson Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Ok, let's keep things civil here, folks. There is no need for name calling. There are no FACTS being presented here anyway, simply opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 What would Coltrane do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 So let's see...$10 for a new remix of drop dead great material with an unreleased track to boot Not quite unreleased -- but previous versions were edited. Now that you've listened to it, what was taken out on previous issued versions? Is it just bass and drum solos, or part of Coltrane and McCoy's solos? Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 What would Coltrane do? Pay his $10 and get the CD!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) And also...the 1961 Newport performance was not recorded, so it would be a bit difficult to have included it, but sure, I guess Verve should have tried. And the '66 performance was not recorded by Impulse, if there are tapes of it, they are with the Coltrane family or elsewhere. And that performance is at least an hour long - would have been tough to include on this disc, but I know...$10 is a lot for some people to pay for such limited material...right? Complain on. No need to take such a nasty tone. The '61 Newport performance was in fact recorded, supposedly with excellent sound: setlist: My Favorite Things/Naima/Impressions (announced as "So What") personnel: John Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Reggie Workman, Art Davis, and Elvin Jones Edited July 5, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 What would Coltrane do? Pay his $10 and get the CD!! Impulse wouldn't slip him an author copy? Cheap bastards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) So let's see...$10 for a new remix of drop dead great material with an unreleased track to boot Not quite unreleased -- but previous versions were edited. Now that you've listened to it, what was taken out on previous issued versions? Is it just bass and drum solos, or part of Coltrane and McCoy's solos? Guy There is a comment in the liner notes that the bass solo was for the most part so badly distorted on the tapes that it's not usable, so most of it is edited out. according to the notes, that's all that's missing, purely because it couldn't be rescued. But like I said - get it for the sound. Just drop dead huge improvement. On the '63 stuff Roy Haynes drums now sound like real drums instead of the tin cans in previous versions - and he's just dropping bombs all the way through. Edited July 5, 2007 by robert h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) So let's see...$10 for a new remix of drop dead great material with an unreleased track to boot Not quite unreleased -- but previous versions were edited. Now that you've listened to it, what was taken out on previous issued versions? Is it just bass and drum solos, or part of Coltrane and McCoy's solos? Guy There is a comment in the liner notes that the bass solo was for the most part so badly distorted on the tapes that it's not usable, so most of it is edited out. according to the notes, that's all that's missing, purely because it couldn't be rescued. So the bass solo isn't in the newly released version either? What's the substantive difference between the two versions? The old one is 15:52, the new one is 23:30. edit: Apparently "I Want to Talk About You" is over a minute longer on the new release as well. Is this just crowd noise? Guy Edited July 5, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMP Posted July 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Picked this up this morning... $10, good notes, very good sound, and the extra material... So, while I have most of this on previous issues, this is a nice package and a good buy. When it's out-of print in a couple of years, you'll wish you had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 I bought it this afternoon too at Borders with a 20% off coupon. Sounds great so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 And also...the 1961 Newport performance was not recorded, so it would be a bit difficult to have included it, but sure, I guess Verve should have tried. And the '66 performance was not recorded by Impulse, if there are tapes of it, they are with the Coltrane family or elsewhere. And that performance is at least an hour long - would have been tough to include on this disc, but I know...$10 is a lot for some people to pay for such limited material...right? Complain on. No need to take such a nasty tone. The '61 Newport performance was in fact recorded, supposedly with excellent sound: setlist: My Favorite Things/Naima/Impressions (announced as "So What") personnel: John Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Reggie Workman, Art Davis, and Elvin Jones According to David Wild and Ashley Kahn, the 1961 Newport performance was NOT recorded by Impulse, to whom Coltrane was under contract to at the time, so as I said earlier, it is NOT reasonable to expect Impulse to be able to issue it. And one must wonder why, if good sources do exist, it hasn't been released officially yet. Since we know Coltrane's record company didn't record it, any recording must be privately held. The 1966 performance was likewise not recorded by Impulse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 So let's see...$10 for a new remix of drop dead great material with an unreleased track to boot Not quite unreleased -- but previous versions were edited. Now that you've listened to it, what was taken out on previous issued versions? Is it just bass and drum solos, or part of Coltrane and McCoy's solos? Guy There is a comment in the liner notes that the bass solo was for the most part so badly distorted on the tapes that it's not usable, so most of it is edited out. according to the notes, that's all that's missing, purely because it couldn't be rescued. So the bass solo isn't in the newly released version either? What's the substantive difference between the two versions? The old one is 15:52, the new one is 23:30. edit: Apparently "I Want to Talk About You" is over a minute longer on the new release as well. Is this just crowd noise? Guy There is an intro by Coltrane previously edited out as well as Tyner's solo. At the beginning there is an intro of the band causing the first track to be longer now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 So the bass solo isn't in the newly released version either? What's the substantive difference between the two versions? The old one is 15:52, the new one is 23:30. edit: Apparently "I Want to Talk About You" is over a minute longer on the new release as well. Is this just crowd noise? There is an intro by Coltrane previously edited out as well as Tyner's solo. At the beginning there is an intro of the band causing the first track to be longer now. Instrumental intro, or a verbal introduction of the tune/band? Thanks for the info, Robert. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 So the bass solo isn't in the newly released version either? What's the substantive difference between the two versions? The old one is 15:52, the new one is 23:30. edit: Apparently "I Want to Talk About You" is over a minute longer on the new release as well. Is this just crowd noise? There is an intro by Coltrane previously edited out as well as Tyner's solo. At the beginning there is an intro of the band causing the first track to be longer now. Instrumental intro, or a verbal introduction of the tune/band? Thanks for the info, Robert. Guy On Impressions - soprano intro. Om I Want To Talk About You - Connors verbal intro, first asking the crowd to cool off and then introducing the Coltrane band members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 And also...the 1961 Newport performance was not recorded, so it would be a bit difficult to have included it, but sure, I guess Verve should have tried. And the '66 performance was not recorded by Impulse, if there are tapes of it, they are with the Coltrane family or elsewhere. And that performance is at least an hour long - would have been tough to include on this disc, but I know...$10 is a lot for some people to pay for such limited material...right? Complain on. No need to take such a nasty tone. The '61 Newport performance was in fact recorded, supposedly with excellent sound: setlist: My Favorite Things/Naima/Impressions (announced as "So What") personnel: John Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Reggie Workman, Art Davis, and Elvin Jones According to David Wild and Ashley Kahn, the 1961 Newport performance was NOT recorded by Impulse, to whom Coltrane was under contract to at the time, so as I said earlier, it is NOT reasonable to expect Impulse to be able to issue it. OK, I'll take that as an implicit concession that the 1961 was in fact recorded. Verve has released Coltrane material not recorded by Impulse several times in the past few years, so I guess this comes down to a definition of "reasonable expectations". And one must wonder why, if good sources do exist, it hasn't been released officially yet. Since we know Coltrane's record company didn't record it, any recording must be privately held. Not sure what you mean by "privately held" -- wasn't it seeded on one of the torrent sites a while back? There are definitely multiple copies circulating. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 From Wild's web page. http://home.att.net/~dawild/jcdisc61.htm#610701 610701 JOHN COLTRANE QUINTET:: Personnel: Coltrane, ss, ts; McCoy Tyner, p; Art Davis, Reggie Workman, b; Elvin Jones, dr. Location: 'Newport Jazz Festival', Newport RI Date: 7/1/61 Engineer: a. "Impressions" J. Coltrane 6:06 Private tape; MJ(I)2MJP1051 b. "Naima" J. Coltrane 4:05 Private tape c. "My Favorite Things" R. Rodgers - O. Hammerstein 16:27 Private recording; MJ(I) 2MJP1051 NOTE: Information about the release of this recording on MJ is per Fujioka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 And also...the 1961 Newport performance was not recorded, so it would be a bit difficult to have included it, but sure, I guess Verve should have tried. And the '66 performance was not recorded by Impulse, if there are tapes of it, they are with the Coltrane family or elsewhere. And that performance is at least an hour long - would have been tough to include on this disc, but I know...$10 is a lot for some people to pay for such limited material...right? Complain on. No need to take such a nasty tone. The '61 Newport performance was in fact recorded, supposedly with excellent sound: setlist: My Favorite Things/Naima/Impressions (announced as "So What") personnel: John Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Reggie Workman, Art Davis, and Elvin Jones According to David Wild and Ashley Kahn, the 1961 Newport performance was NOT recorded by Impulse, to whom Coltrane was under contract to at the time, so as I said earlier, it is NOT reasonable to expect Impulse to be able to issue it. OK, I'll take that as an implicit concession that the 1961 was in fact recorded. Verve has released Coltrane material not recorded by Impulse several times in the past few years, so I guess this comes down to a definition of "reasonable expectations". And one must wonder why, if good sources do exist, it hasn't been released officially yet. Since we know Coltrane's record company didn't record it, any recording must be privately held. Not sure what you mean by "privately held" -- wasn't it seeded on one of the torrent sites a while back? There are definitely multiple copies circulating. Guy The stuff Verve has been releasing comes primarily from the family tape stash, which they (Ravi) seem to be letting come out at a rather glacial pace. Some of that stuff, in fact, is Impulse property anyways, that they have been essentially negotiating to get back - tapes Thiele removed, duplicates Impulse had RVG make that Coltrane removed. Or stuff like the Olatunji concert (that IMO should have been left unreleased) that Coltrane had recorded himself. Any '61 Newport tapes come either from radio transcription, Newport Festival's own tapes, or audience recordings. Wild's discography lists anything with any tape - many of which are terrible audience recordings made by anyone with a portable cassette player. Where it says "private tape", if not recorded by the venue in a professional manner, it's likely an audience boot or copy made by an amateur from the radio - which most are. Let's not worry about whether some speculative boot tape exists or not. There's LOADS of official, Impulse material STILL unreleased, largely late period, which Verve unfortunately considers low potential stuff. That's the stuff that most needs to see the light of day. Want to help make that happen? But the new Newport disc. That'll let Verve know there's still a viable market for quality Coltrane material. As well as rewarding them for a hell of a good job on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) The stuff Verve has been releasing comes primarily from the family tape stash, which they (Ravi) seem to be letting come out at a rather glacial pace. Some of that stuff, in fact, is Impulse property anyways, that they have been essentially negotiating to get back - tapes Thiele removed, duplicates Impulse had RVG make that Coltrane removed. What about the '65 Juan Les Pins performance? Or stuff like the Olatunji concert (that IMO should have been left unreleased) You're kidding? Guy Edited July 5, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) Lord knows we've been back and forth on the merits of Olatunj, but I'm not sure that either the Coltrane legacy or the world are worse off for its release... if we're going to "plunder" the Coltrane archives, I'd rather they hew toward the Olatunji stratosphere. Edited July 5, 2007 by ep1str0phy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 (edited) So let's see...$10 for a new remix of drop dead great material with an unreleased track to boot Not quite unreleased -- but previous versions were edited. Now that you've listened to it, what was taken out on previous issued versions? Is it just bass and drum solos, or part of Coltrane and McCoy's solos? Guy There is a comment in the liner notes that the bass solo was for the most part so badly distorted on the tapes that it's not usable, so most of it is edited out. according to the notes, that's all that's missing, purely because it couldn't be rescued. So the bass solo isn't in the newly released version either? What's the substantive difference between the two versions? The old one is 15:52, the new one is 23:30. I just A/Bed the versions of Impressions. There is about a one minute intro (maybe a little less) by Trane that has been restored, followed by an approximately five and a half minute solo by Tyner, followed by about 30 seconds of the lost bass solo (which really does sound awful - I'm sure his playing is fine but you can see why they did not include the entire solo - it's nice that they included this little snippet just to satisfy mycuriosity, though). I think the distortion on Garrison's bass may be why they left the piano solo out to start with; it is fairly prominent in that section, too. However, there is no way I can think of that they could have restored Trane's intro without reintroducing the piano solo - it just wouldn't have worked. Trane does sound much better on this remaster. Elvin Jones is a little higher in the mix. Garrison is much higher in the mix, which is somewhat debateable choice given the sound problem. Oddly, I actually prefer the way Tyner sounded on the old master. I haven't listened to the rest of the disc. Edit: I was way off on the duration of that Trane intro. It is about 20 seconds. Edited July 5, 2007 by J Larsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 The stuff Verve has been releasing comes primarily from the family tape stash, which they (Ravi) seem to be letting come out at a rather glacial pace. Some of that stuff, in fact, is Impulse property anyways, that they have been essentially negotiating to get back - tapes Thiele removed, duplicates Impulse had RVG make that Coltrane removed. What about the '65 Juan Les Pins performance? Or stuff like the Olatunji concert (that IMO should have been left unreleased) You're kidding? Guy The '65 Juan Les Pins performance was professionally recorded, unlike a lot of other stuff in Wild's discography. Good move on Verve's part to license it. Let's face it, though - A Love Supreme is Coltrane's prime asset, so the cost to Verve makes it worthwhile. The Olatunji stuff is SO badly recorded it is virtually unlistenable. Too bad, it's smoking hot stuff, but really - how many times will anyone listen to it? And let me ask you this - would Coltrane have authorized the release of something that badly recorded? What came out can only tarnish the legendary status of the performance and makes it much tougher for Verve to flog the genuinely great stuff still unreleased. Not every shred of tape need to be stuck on a disc!! And some stuff is best left in the vault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 So let's see...$10 for a new remix of drop dead great material with an unreleased track to boot Not quite unreleased -- but previous versions were edited. Now that you've listened to it, what was taken out on previous issued versions? Is it just bass and drum solos, or part of Coltrane and McCoy's solos? Guy There is a comment in the liner notes that the bass solo was for the most part so badly distorted on the tapes that it's not usable, so most of it is edited out. according to the notes, that's all that's missing, purely because it couldn't be rescued. So the bass solo isn't in the newly released version either? What's the substantive difference between the two versions? The old one is 15:52, the new one is 23:30. I just A/Bed the versions of Impressions. There is about a one minute intro (maybe a little less) by Trane that has been restored, followed by an approximately five and a half minute solo by Tyner, followed by about 30 seconds of the lost bass solo (which really does sound awful - I'm sure his playing is fine but you can see why they did not include the entire solo - it's nice that they included this little snippet just to satisfy mycuriosity, though). I think the distortion on Garrison's bass may be why they left the piano solo out to start with; it is fairly prominent in that section, too. However, there is no way I can think of that they could have restored Trane's intro without reintroducing the piano solo - it just wouldn't have worked. Trane does sound much better on this remaster. Elvin Jones is a little higher in the mix. Garrison is much higher in the mix, which is somewhat debateable choice given the sound problem. Oddly, I actually prefer the way Tyner sounded on the old master. I haven't listened to the rest of the disc. Edit: I was way off on the duration of that Trane intro. It is about 20 seconds. Problem with your analysis is - It's Roy Haynes playing on Impressions, not Elvin Jones. Pretty easy to get that after hearing it for a minute or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Or stuff like the Olatunji concert (that IMO should have been left unreleased) You're kidding? The Olatunji stuff is SO badly recorded it is virtually unlistenable. Too bad, it's smoking hot stuff, but really - how many times will anyone listen to it? Well, personally, I've listened to it a bunch of times. I know I'm not the only one. And let me ask you this - would Coltrane have authorized the release of something that badly recorded? What came out can only tarnish the legendary status of the performance and makes it much tougher for Verve to flog the genuinely great stuff still unreleased. And yet six years after the release of the Olatunji concert, Verve continues to reissue Coltrane material unimpeded. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Or stuff like the Olatunji concert (that IMO should have been left unreleased) You're kidding? The Olatunji stuff is SO badly recorded it is virtually unlistenable. Too bad, it's smoking hot stuff, but really - how many times will anyone listen to it? Well, personally, I've listened to it a bunch of times. I know I'm not the only one. And let me ask you this - would Coltrane have authorized the release of something that badly recorded? What came out can only tarnish the legendary status of the performance and makes it much tougher for Verve to flog the genuinely great stuff still unreleased. And yet six years after the release of the Olatunji concert, Verve continues to reissue Coltrane material unimpeded. Guy If they can get the complete '63 Birdland material and make it sound as good as the new Newport stuff, I won't be impeding them. Anytime they want to do remixes of any Coltrane titles I would be thrilled. How about an RVG remaster of Crescent? And if they can do the unissued 1966 and 1967 stuff which is potentially explosive stuff I would be all over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted July 5, 2007 Report Share Posted July 5, 2007 Or stuff like the Olatunji concert (that IMO should have been left unreleased) You're kidding? The Olatunji stuff is SO badly recorded it is virtually unlistenable. Too bad, it's smoking hot stuff, but really - how many times will anyone listen to it? Well, personally, I've listened to it a bunch of times. I know I'm not the only one. Guy In about an hour I'm stepping in the car. I'm going to play Olatunji and hope for the best... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.